A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming

[Superdad]

25 minutes ago, ted_b said:

What are you using, currently, to feed the I2S input of the Holo?  Still the SU-1?

 

Hi Ted: Yes, still the heavily modified (courtesy of @scan80269) SU-1, powered by an UltraCap LPS-1.2 (natch), and connected by a 1-ft. Wireworld Chroma 7 HDMI cable.

 

With various other improvements to my system the past couple of years (custom AL/NUC/NAA/LPS-1.2 by @lmitche, RoonCore/HQP Embedded under AudioLinux on i7 Mac mini/JS-2, etc.) I recently decided to check and see if the Singxer DDC was still needed. So I took it out and went USB direct (still though ISO REGEN).  Took less than a minute to confirm the Spring still VERY MUCH benefits from the Crystek 575-equipped SU-1.

[Full disclosure: I've had the newer Holo Audio XMOS USB>I2S board on my desk (thanks Tim @Bimmer100) for over a year but have been too busy to pull the DAC from my rack and remove all the panel screws to install the newer input board.]

Also, I've not heard the new Spring 2 DAC, though I have read nice things about it and recall that they improve the clocks.

[Nenon]

1 hour ago, Superdad said:

 

Hi Nenon:

Nice post.

While I too enjoy using the I2S/LVDS input (on the Holo Spring L3 currently), what you say about most DACs not reclocking the I2S is not correct.  DACs such as the PS Audio units, most ESS Sabre DACs, and most others do not rely solely on the audio clock of the external I2S. The Holo Spring and I am sure a couple of others are the exception (and certainly this accounts for the large delta I hear when feeding it a well-clocked I2S).

Cheers,

--Alex C.

I stand corrected. Too late to edit my post, so let me say that my experience is limited to DACs that do not reclock the I2s signal. 

 

I did have a PS Audio DirectStream DAC and was aware about the I2s recklocking but for some reason I thought that was the exception, not the rule. A little research confirmed that more DACs recklock the I2s that don't. I also owned a Denafrips Terminator for almost a year, but never tried with good quality I2s. I wish I did...

 

50 minutes ago, Superdad said:

Yes, still the heavily modified (courtesy of @scan80269) SU-1

So you are still using USB and then converting to I2s. My post was about eliminating USB altogether and going PCIe->I2s / LVDS -> DAC. This is when the magic happens in my opinion.

 

But that brings up another really good point. There is no universal solution. And it's essential to understand the design of our DAC before building a server. If I was to bring back the PS Audio DAC, which BTW I have no intention to do, knowing that it is a pure DSD DAC, I would try upsampling my music to DSD first. It's a completely different approach than the PinkFaun I2s I have been talking about and most likely would have to be done with USB. It may or may not sound better than I2s. And then, even with the next firmware release, things can change completely... there is no universal formula here. 

[LJONESATL]

2 hours ago, Nenon said:

I stand corrected. Too late to edit my post, so let me say that my experience is limited to DACs that do not reclock the I2s signal. 

 

I did have a PS Audio DirectStream DAC and was aware about the I2s recklocking but for some reason I thought that was the exception, not the rule. A little research confirmed that more DACs recklock the I2s that don't. I also owned a Denafrips Terminator for almost a year, but never tried with good quality I2s. I wish I did...

 

So you are still using USB and then converting to I2s. My post was about eliminating USB altogether and going PCIe->I2s / LVDS -> DAC. This is when the magic happens in my opinion.

 

But that brings up another really good point. There is no universal solution. And it's essential to understand the design of our DAC before building a server. If I was to bring back the PS Audio DAC, which BTW I have no intention to do, knowing that it is a pure DSD DAC, I would try upsampling my music to DSD first. It's a completely different approach than the PinkFaun I2s I have been talking about and most likely would have to be done with USB. It may or may not sound better than I2s. And then, even with the next firmware release, things can change completely... there is no universal formula here. 

Now I'm more than intrigued about trying out PCIe->I2S/LVDS->PS Audio Direct Stream DAC and not implementing a USB solution within this new build.  It's currently configured with an Intel I9-9900 CPU on a mini-ITX  Asus ROG STRIX Z390-I Gaming board.  I choose the I9-9900 vs. the I9-9900K because of it's lower TDP value of 65W vs the I9-9900K having a TDP of 95W.  I was about to pull the trigger on a PinkFaun USB Bridge, and noticed their I2S Bridge for the same price (with their base TXCO Clock) €325.00 (or $358 rounding up with today's exchange rate).  I've got an email question out to PinkFaun about the compatibility with my Intel CPU based system.  However, if their I2S Bridge is PCIe based, which is the industry standard, then it should fit like a glove into the single PCIe slot on the Asus MoBo I'm using.  Pink Faun offers that card in the half height bracket even, which is perfect for the HD PLEX H3 V2 chassis it's going into.  I just hope my idea doesn't go down in flames if for some reason their I2S bridge can't be used within this current new build (I think I should start identifying them by build date or something...it's hard to keep them straight.)

[Chopin75]

16 minutes ago, LJONESATL said:

Now I'm more than intrigued about trying out PCIe->I2S/LVDS->PS Audio Direct Stream DAC and not implementing a USB solution within this new build.  It's currently configured with an Intel I9-9900 CPU on a mini-ITX  Asus ROG STRIX Z390-I Gaming board.  I choose the I9-9900 vs. the I9-9900K because of it's lower TDP value of 65W vs the I9-9900K having a TDP of 95W.  I was about to pull the trigger on a PinkFaun USB Bridge, and noticed their I2S Bridge for the same price (with their base TXCO Clock) €325.00 (or $358 rounding up with today's exchange rate).  I've got an email question out to PinkFaun about the compatibility with my Intel CPU based system.  However, if their I2S Bridge is PCIe based, which is the industry standard, then it should fit like a glove into the single PCIe slot on the Asus MoBo I'm using.  Pink Faun offers that card in the half height bracket even, which is perfect for the HD PLEX H3 V2 chassis it's going into.  I just hope my idea doesn't go down in flames if for some reason their I2S bridge can't be used within this current new build (I think I should start identifying them by build date or something...it's hard to keep them straight.)

Note the pk faun i2s does not do dsd or DXD (24/352)

[Chopin75]

There is also a review of a pinkfaun server that uses its usb, i2s and spdif/aes bridges, each seems to have certain advantage, i will see if i can find that review when i get home

[Nenon]

1 hour ago, LJONESATL said:

I just hope my idea doesn't go down in flames if for some reason their I2S bridge can't be used within this current new build

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but the Pink Faun I2S bridge would not work with your Intel I9-9900 CPU. I thought I made that clear a couple of posts ago. That's the main reason I started looking at the new AMD Ryzen CPUs. 

 

1 hour ago, Chopin75 said:

There is also a review of a pinkfaun server that uses its usb, i2s and spdif/aes bridges, each seems to have certain advantage, i will see if i can find that review when i get home

Probably this one - https://www.hifi-advice.com/blog/review/digital-reviews/music-server-reviews/pink-faun-2-16x-1-3/ 

 

[novaca]

On 9/13/2019 at 5:02 PM, ASRMichael said:

Hi, not sure if this is the right place on the forum or not but I seen Romas talking about NUC motherboards. Nuc7i7bnh

 

My TLS db-7 uses a Akasa plato case. Looks really cheap and nasty. I have searched for other options, but nothing I see that can fit. If i was to say, I don't necessary have a budget, but if it was top end would anyone have any recommendations of better pc case?

 

Thanks in advance

I'm waiting for HDPlex H1 V3

http://www.fanlesstech.com/search?updated-max=2019-07-05T00:04:00%2B02:00&max-results=10&start=60&by-date=false

[Energy]

@Nenon

I have a Denafrips Terminator coming in thus why I²S looks very worthwhile right about now. I've sold the Singxer SU-1 I had for a tX-USBultra but would rather use a direct route to bypass all the unnecessary clocks.  

 

So you're saying it won't work on Intel i7 CPU's in general? Even if the unit is an Intel NUC7i7DNHE working as an NAA running AudioLinux? If that IS the case, that would mean it's not a driver issue so it has nothing to do with the operating system and more related to the CMedia CM8888 chip or CPU type as you say. If one does manage to get it to work on perhaps an AMD system, does it have issues upsampling PCM to DSD? Or is the problem more starting with native DSD files itself?

 

And yes, I was going to use a M.2 to PCI-E like the one you suggested and shorten the cable using better quality wires with JSSG360^3 shields. Mylar aluminum foil (15mm) will go spirally down certain data wires to further reduce noise once I can figure out which ones should optimally be grouped up or separated. The teflon and JSSG360 of course would go over them all after completion. 

 

@novaca

Thanks for sharing the HDPlex H1 V3. That case would be a lot better than the Akasa Plato X7D if one chooses to make room for a USB or S/PDIF output card and maybe even fit an LPSU in there. Now I don't have to cut the back of the Akasa just to fit an output card. Great.

[Nenon]

2 minutes ago, Energy said:

So you're saying it won't work on Intel i7 CPU's in general?

Correct. 

 

3 minutes ago, Energy said:

If that IS the case, that would mean it's not a driver issue so it has nothing to do with the operating system and more related to the CMedia CM8888 chip or CPU type as you say.

Correct.

 

3 minutes ago, Energy said:

If one does manage to get it to work on perhaps an AMD system, does it have issues upsampling PCM to DSD?

The PinkFaun I2s bridge is working perfectly fine on my AMD-based system and sounding amazing. However, it can only output PCM. You cannot upsample PCM to DSD with this card. 

 

25 minutes ago, Energy said:

And yes, I was going to use a M.2 to PCI-E like the one you suggested and shorten the cable using better quality wires with JSSG360^3 shields. Mylar aluminum foil (15mm) will go spirally down certain data wires to further reduce noise once I can figure out which ones should optimally be grouped up or separated. The teflon and JSSG360 of course would go over them all after completion. 

If this is not a trade secret (since you have a cable company), can you please share some pictures with the DIY community? 

[Energy]

9 hours ago, Nenon said:

The PinkFaun I2s bridge is working perfectly fine on my AMD-based system and sounding amazing. However, it can only output PCM. You cannot upsample PCM to DSD with this card. 

 

If this is not a trade secret (since you have a cable company), can you please share some pictures with the DIY community? 

 

It's unfortunate as I prefer using an Intel NUC with a network switch for proper isolation with the added benefit of AudioLinux OS latency.

 

The Windows PC is an upcoming AMD RYZEN 9 3950X powered by HDPLEX 200W LPSU. Enough processing power for HQPLAYER's DSD512 upsampling (poly-sinc-xtr-lp + ASDM7EC) but too noisy to put the Pink Faun I²S Bridge into thus the two box setup.

 

There is likely a jitter increase from using multiple devices (network switch + NUC) and cables (Ethernet + USB) between the PC and the DAC. However I find the isolation to do more for the sound. Perhaps if a person had a PC as quiet as the Pink Faun 2.16x they wouldn't need to do multiple box runs. Given the scenario of a two box setup, as to what you said, the only way to improve from here is remove USB from the chain and do a direct I²S connection to the DAC. The only way for that to work is if the NUC can support an I²S Bridge.

 

Either CMedia CM8888 starts supporting it,  or AMD makes their own NUC, or I build a music server with LPSU that has isolated voltage rails just to implement the Pink Faun I²S Bridge.. To all honesty, I have a feeling a multiple box solution will work better because of the high frequency noise that comes from computer parts (CPU, RAM, ETC) even despite them being cleanly powered. However nothing is certain unless you try it so I'm planning to build both.

 

Every cable or modification I do will be shared with the community to further advancements in computer audio. There is no trade secrets. 😏

 

@Nenon Does the Pink Faun I²S Bridge not support DSD in general? If so that's a deal breaker for me. I listen to nothing but PCM converted to DSD. 😞

[ted_b]

Two things:

* its been said many times that the Pink Faun I2S bridge simply does not support DSD. I would think that is enough evidence 😀

* I’m gonna assume you meant DSD256 with EC modulators. DSD512 w/ EC  is unobtanium right now. 

[Nenon]

Now that everyone's attention is on the EtherREGEN thread ( @Superdad announced the first listening impressions and final price) I can report my latest findings.

 

About a month ago I decided to compare two AMD-based motherboards - a server motherboard - AsROCK X470D4U - and a gaming motherboard - ASUS ROG Strix X470-I. Not only that, but I also wanted to find out if using ECC memory makes a difference. Here is my original post:

On 8/15/2019 at 1:17 PM, Nenon said:

I am also planning to compare two AMD-based motherboards - an Asus gaming motherboard (ASUS ROG Strix X470-I) with a AsROCK server motherboard (X470D4U) with ECC RAM. Keep you posted on that as well. 

 

I was using both motherboards in the same configuration:

- AMD Ryzen 7 3700X CPU

- Sean Jacobs DC3 4-rail LPS (ATX - 12V, 5V,3.3V; EPS - 12V; all separate rails)

- PinkFaun I2S Bridge with OCXO clock

- Euphony / Stylus one box solution

 

I started with the ASUS ROG Strix X470-I motherboard and 2 x 8GB DDR4-3200 CL16 Non-ECC RAM. I had it for 3 weeks in my system. Just enough to get used to the sound. At that time I did a quick comparison between the AMD/ASUS and an AsROCK / Intel i9-9900K. Here is my post about that comparison:

On 8/7/2019 at 7:27 PM, Nenon said:

 

After spending a couple of weeks with a AMD Ryzen 7  3700X / ASUS ROG Strix X470-I and comparing with the Intel i9-9900K / AsROCK Z390 Phantom Gaming-ITX/ac, here is what I think:

- If I am using the USB out of the motherboard, I prefer the Intel / AsROCK. It sounds better to my ears in my system than the AMD / ASUS. 

- I was introduced to the Pink Faun I2S card and their ultraOCXO clock. Unfortunately I could not get that card to work on the Intel server, but it worked on the AMD. I prefer by a huge margin the sound of the AMD with the PinkFaun I2S.

- I compared the PinkFaun I2S with two other I had with me - JCAT USB card and Audiobyte Hydra (USB to I2S output), all fed by the same external LPS. I liked the PinkFaun a lot better. I wish I had more USB cards to compare with. It would have been nice to compare with a PinkFaun USB with ultraOCXO clock, but I did not have one.

- One thing I learned from all those tests is the faster you process the signal, the better it sounds (assuming you have a good LPS of course). More cores, more cache, higher speed - the more the better. Looking forward to try an AMD Ryzen 9 3900X when it gets available at normal prices. 

 

There is something really good about not using USB at all. I guess the simplicity of getting the signal out of the (low latency) PCIe slot and converting it to I2S with a really low noise clock pays out. Guitar strings and piano has never sounded so good out of my digital rig. Actually, I always thought they sounded really really good with my USB output. But my reference analog rig did a good job showing me they can sound better. With the I2S they get super close to my analog rig, perhaps even better in some cases.

 

If I was using USB, I would prefer the Intel / AsROCK. For me I2S without any USB conversions just sounds better, so I am going the AMD route. I will probably try a Ryzen 9 3900X whenever it becomes available.

Now the bad news. First, the PinkFaun I2S does not work on Intel. Second, it does not support DSD. Third, it only supports up to 192 kHz. For those of you with native DSD DACs who would like to upsample, that may not be for you. For me what I hear sounds a lot better, and I have made my choice. For now at least :). 

 

BTW, since I don't need the Intel i9-9900K / AsROCK Z390 Phantom Gaming-ITX/ac, PM me if you are looking for one. 

 

 

Then I switched to the AsROCK X470D4U, keeping the same Non-ECC RAM. I did not like it from day 1, but I kept listening to it for almost 3 weeks. To be honest, I could not wait to go back to the ASUS. Each motherboard had its own sound signature, and I certainly prefered the gaming ASUS motherboard over the server AsROCK. There was no enjoyment with the server AsROCK. I could listen to background music, but that was it. 

 

But what about the ECC memory? Per the ASUS ROG Strix X470-I specs, it does NOT support ECC memory. The AsROCK X470D4U does. 

I did some research and decided to try the industrial wide temperature Apacer ECC RAM (https://industrial.apacer.com/en-ww/DRAM/DDR4-Wide-Temp.-ECC-UDIMM ). The idea was not that I needed usability from -40°C to +85°C, but that this type of RAM was built with better quality parts and may sound better. Plus, I've heard from a few places that ECC RAM sounds better. The Taiko Extreme server uses ECC RAM for example. JCAT is also a big fan of the Apacer ECC RAM. 

 

I installed the Apacer RAM on the AsROCK motherboard and heard an improvement immediately. I still think I prefered the ASUS motherboard, but they got close. I wish I could install the Apacer ECC RAM on the ASUS motherboard. Well, I had the suspicious that although the ASUS ROG Strix X470-I motherboard does not officially support ECC memory, it may actually work. So I gave it a try. AND IT WORKED! I was able to boot the ASUS ROG Strix X470-I with the Apacer ECC memory. And it sounded really really good. I could not stop listening music all night that day. And I am still enjoying it :).

 

I still have the Intel i9-9900K / AsROCK Z390 Phantom Gaming-ITX/ac. So I decided to do another quick comparison between the AMD/ASUS and Intel/AsROCK gaming motherboards. Unfortunately, the PinkFaun I2S card does not work with my Intel CPU, so I had to switch to USB. I used the motherboard USB output to compare. That's the same comparison I did in the beginning of August (see above). The only difference was that this time I used the ECC RAM on the AMD/ASUS. And while the soundstage collapsed, because I was using the motherboard USB output, not the PinkFaun with ultra OCXO, I do believe I liked the AMD better this time. 

 

That leads me to a conclusion that the RAM, a component I always neglected in the past, is very important. That industrial Apacer ECC RAM is really good. I don't know if it sounds so much better because it is good quality or because it is ECC. My guess is that both contribute to what I am hearing. 

 

To summarize for those who did not want to read the entire long post:

- The gaming ASUS ROG Strix X470-I motherboard sounded a lot better than the server AsROCK X470D4U motherboard (to my ears, in my system).

- The industrial Apacer ECC RAM made a big difference. 

- It just happened that although not officially supported, the ASUS ROG Strix X470-I motherboard works fine with the Apacer ECC RAM, so that's what I ended up using. 

 

Note: I am assuming that everyone reading this post understands the difference between ECC and non-ECC memory.

Intel purposely does not add support for ECC memory to their consumer grade CPUs such as the Core i7 and Core i9, so they cannot be used with ECC memory. That option is reserved for Intel's server-based CPUs (i.e. Intel Xeon), which typically require server-grade motherboards. So Intel-based gaming motherboards typically only work with consumer CPUs and don't support ECC memory.

AMD on the other hand does not have such restrictions. This is why we can use ECC memory on some consumer grade AMD CPUs, such as the AMD Ryzen 7 3700X in my case.

[rando]

@Nenon , good to see someone else taking up the server board/ECC RAM idea.  Oddly enough this lead me back in the opposite direction to cross off gaming motherboards with double capacity DIMM and a few other ideas.  The HQP EC quandary is providing plenty of time to think over what if any positive effects are possible.  That ASUS board being mighty rare and $$$ if you can find and import it adds another layer of intrigue.  To check off it not being any better of hardware for our use.  

[Chopin75]

46 minutes ago, Nenon said:

Now that everyone's attention is on the EtherREGEN thread ( @Superdad announced the first listening impressions and final price) I can report my latest findings.

 

About a month ago I decided to compare two AMD-based motherboards - a server motherboard - AsROCK X470D4U - and a gaming motherboard - ASUS ROG Strix X470-I. Not only that, but I also wanted to find out if using ECC memory makes a difference. Here is my original post:

 

I was using both motherboards in the same configuration:

- AMD Ryzen 7 3700X CPU

- Sean Jacobs DC3 4-rail LPS (ATX - 12V, 5V,3.3V; EPS - 12V; all separate rails)

- PinkFaun I2S Bridge with OCXO clock

- Euphony / Stylus one box solution

 

I started with the ASUS ROG Strix X470-I motherboard and 2 x 8GB DDR4-3200 CL16 Non-ECC RAM. I had it for 3 weeks in my system. Just enough to get used to the sound. At that time I did a quick comparison between the AMD/ASUS and an AsROCK / Intel i9-9900K. Here is my post about that comparison:

 

Then I switched to the AsROCK X470D4U, keeping the same Non-ECC RAM. I did not like it from day 1, but I kept listening to it for almost 3 weeks. To be honest, I could not wait to go back to the ASUS. Each motherboard had its own sound signature, and I certainly prefered the gaming ASUS motherboard over the server AsROCK. There was no enjoyment with the server AsROCK. I could listen to background music, but that was it. 

 

But what about the ECC memory? Per the ASUS ROG Strix X470-I specs, it does NOT support ECC memory. The AsROCK X470D4U does. 

I did some research and decided to try the industrial wide temperature Apacer ECC RAM (https://industrial.apacer.com/en-ww/DRAM/DDR4-Wide-Temp.-ECC-UDIMM ). The idea was not that I needed usability from -40°C to +85°C, but that this type of RAM was built with better quality parts and may sound better. Plus, I've heard from a few places that ECC RAM sounds better. The Taiko Extreme server uses ECC RAM for example. JCAT is also a big fan of the Apacer ECC RAM. 

 

I installed the Apacer RAM on the AsROCK motherboard and heard an improvement immediately. I still think I prefered the ASUS motherboard, but they got close. I wish I could install the Apacer ECC RAM on the ASUS motherboard. Well, I had the suspicious that although the ASUS ROG Strix X470-I motherboard does not officially support ECC memory, it may actually work. So I gave it a try. AND IT WORKED! I was able to boot the ASUS ROG Strix X470-I with the Apacer ECC memory. And it sounded really really good. I could not stop listening music all night that day. And I am still enjoying it :).

 

I still have the Intel i9-9900K / AsROCK Z390 Phantom Gaming-ITX/ac. So I decided to do another quick comparison between the AMD/ASUS and Intel/AsROCK gaming motherboards. Unfortunately, the PinkFaun I2S card does not work with my Intel CPU, so I had to switch to USB. I used the motherboard USB output to compare. That's the same comparison I did in the beginning of August (see above). The only difference was that this time I used the ECC RAM on the AMD/ASUS. And while the soundstage collapsed, because I was using the motherboard USB output, not the PinkFaun with ultra OCXO, I do believe I liked the AMD better this time. 

 

That leads me to a conclusion that the RAM, a component I always neglected in the past, is very important. That industrial Apacer ECC RAM is really good. I don't know if it sounds so much better because it is good quality or because it is ECC. My guess is that both contribute to what I am hearing. 

 

To summarize for those who did not want to read the entire long post:

- The gaming ASUS ROG Strix X470-I motherboard sounded a lot better than the server AsROCK X470D4U motherboard (to my ears, in my system).

- The industrial Apacer ECC RAM made a big difference. 

- It just happened that although not officially supported, the ASUS ROG Strix X470-I motherboard works fine with the Apacer ECC RAM, so that's what I ended up using. 

 

Note: I am assuming that everyone reading this post understands the difference between ECC and non-ECC memory.

Intel purposely does not add support for ECC memory to their consumer grade CPUs such as the Core i7 and Core i9, so they cannot be used with ECC memory. That option is reserved for Intel's server-based CPUs (i.e. Intel Xeon), which typically require server-grade motherboards. So Intel-based gaming motherboards typically only work with consumer CPUs and don't support ECC memory.

AMD on the other hand does not have such restrictions. This is why we can use ECC memory on some consumer grade AMD CPUs, such as the AMD Ryzen 7 3700X in my case.

Do you mind posting a link which ECC RAM you used ? I checked their web but there. are a bunch of them. I am wondering if it would work with older motherboard like x370 that I have (with Ryzen CPU)

[Nenon]

@rando

One of the main reasons to try a server motherboard was the ECC memory support.

To my surprise the ASUS gaming motherboard just works perfectly fine with ECC memory. It's also smaller, cheaper, and sounds better. 

 

The second reason was reading some posts where people claimed that server motherboards in general sounded better than gaming motherboards. But let's not generalize...

 

And the third reason was that the AsROCK X470D4U had IPMI interface, so no need to have a video card.

Those Ryzen CPUs require an external video card. That actually is quite inconvenient, but I think at the end, it might be a benefit for audio. The video chip on some of my Intel-based motherboards was one of the noisiest chips (it generated a lot of EMI; also treating it with EMI absorbers helped a little). So maybe it is a good thing to use a CPU and motherboard with no video support after all. 
 

BTW, I wonder how much the IPMI chip was influencing the sound on the AsROCK X470D4U motherboard. I never bothered disabling it, because the BIOS reset was really hard to reach under my LPS regulators.

[Chopin75]

6 minutes ago, Chopin75 said:

Do you mind posting a link which ECC RAM you used ? I checked their web but there. are a bunch of them. I am wondering if it would work with older motherboard like x370 that I have (with Ryzen CPU)

never mind I found your link above.

Yes, the PF folks told me that intel does not work with their I2S hence I got AMD chip instead. I am planing to do a PF I2S bridge in future too.

[Chopin75]

7 minutes ago, Nenon said:

@rando

One of the main reasons to try a server motherboard was the ECC memory support.

To my surprise the ASUS gaming motherboard just works perfectly fine with ECC memory. It's also smaller, cheaper, and sounds better. 

 

The second reason was reading some posts where people claimed that server motherboards in general sounded better than gaming motherboards. But let's not generalize...

 

And the third reason was that the AsROCK X470D4U had IPMI interface, so no need to have a video card.

Those Ryzen CPUs require an external video card. That actually is quite inconvenient, but I think at the end, it might be a benefit for audio. The video chip on some of my Intel-based motherboards was one of the noisiest chips (it generated a lot of EMI; also treating it with EMI absorbers helped a little). So maybe it is a good thing to use a CPU and motherboard with no video support after all. 
 

BTW, I wonder how much the IPMI chip was influencing the sound on the AsROCK X470D4U motherboard. I never bothered disabling it, because the BIOS reset was really hard to reach under my LPS regulators.

Yes, the theory is that AMD Chips having no video may be less noisy. The external video card is cheap, so I got it just to install/setup Euphony and if needed for other OS. Then take it out. You can also borrow a friend's card just to install/setup. 

[austinpop]

1 hour ago, Nenon said:

To summarize for those who did not want to read the entire long post:

- The gaming ASUS ROG Strix X470-I motherboard sounded a lot better than the server AsROCK X470D4U motherboard (to my ears, in my system).

- The industrial Apacer ECC RAM made a big difference. 

- It just happened that although not officially supported, the ASUS ROG Strix X470-I motherboard works fine with the Apacer ECC RAM, so that's what I ended up using. 

 

 

Thank you. These are outstanding findings. Not only do you confirm the claims about the superior SQ of ECC RAM that Emile, Marcin, et al have been making, the fact that it works in the better sounding ASUS mobo is very exciting.

 

The only shame is that X470D4U looked perfect from a PCIe perspective, since it has 3 PCIe slots without risers, which would be perfect to house a JCAT Net Femto for Ethernet, and JCAT USB Femto for USB. As far as I can see the ASUS only has 1 PCIe slot, which seems more typical of mini-ITX mobos.

[Nenon]

33 minutes ago, austinpop said:

 

Thank you. These are outstanding findings. Not only do you confirm the claims about the superior SQ of ECC RAM that Emile, Marcin, et al have been making, the fact that it works in the better sounding ASUS mobo is very exciting.

 

The only shame is that X470D4U looked perfect from a PCIe perspective, since it has 3 PCIe slots without risers, which would be perfect to house a JCAT Net Femto for Ethernet, and JCAT USB Femto for USB. As far as I can see the ASUS only has 1 PCIe slot, which seems more typical of mini-ITX mobos.

 

Actually the PCIe slots was another reason I picked the X470D4U motherboard. It was fitting perfectly fine in a Streacom FC9 chassis, but only two of the three PCIe openings in the chassis were possible to use. One of the PCIe slots did not match an opening. 

Also, the motherboard had a layout designed for server-based airflow, and it was not very easy to fit the copper cooling pipes. The CPU socket was shifted to the left and that required longer pipes than the standard provided by Streacom. Also, the RAM slots were standing between the CPU socket and the heatsink, and I had to use a cooler riser to raise the copper pipes above the RAM. There was also a lot of stability issues until a BIOS update was released a couple of weeks ago. To be honest, it was a hassle to work with this motherboard. In a way, I am glad it did not sound as good as the ASUS. 

 

I am starting to think that those mini-ITX boards may sound so good because of the shorter thick PCB traces on the board. But that's just a speculation in my head. 

 

The ASUS motherboard has only one PCIe slot, which I use for the PinkFaun card. It has two M.2 slots - one on the bottom where I install my Optane card and one on the top where I install one of these for my JCAT Net card - https://www.ebay.com/itm/25cm-M-2-Key-M-to-PCIe-x1-Riser-Card-Cable-for-Bitcoin-mining-R41SR-WK/253454407364. And I ended up replacing that ribbon cable with solid silver wire and JSSG360. As I mentioned in one of my previous posts, if that riser with the silver cable degrades the sound of my JCAT Net card, I have not been able to hear the difference. 

 

But yes, I am happy I tried the ECC memory, and I really enjoy the result.

 

[seeteeyou]

FYI - if we weren't ready to get another motherboard in order to try Xeon / Ryzen yet, Intel actually supported ECC RAM with their Desktop flavor of Core i3 (meant for low-end servers) since the 4th generation

 

https://www.servethehome.com/intel-core-i3-8300-benchmarks-and-review-the-dark-horse-low-cost-server-processor/

Quote

Unlike most of the Core i5 and Core i7 models, one can get unbuffered ECC DIMM support in the Core i3 series.

 

9th Generation Intel® Core™ i3 Processors
https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/products/series/134901/9th-generation-intel-core-i3-processors.html

 

8th Generation Intel® Core™ i3 Processors
https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/products/series/122588/8th-generation-intel-core-i3-processors.html

 

7th Generation Intel® Core™ i3 Processors
https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/products/series/95545/7th-generation-intel-core-i3-processors.html

 

6th Generation Intel® Core™ i3 Processors
https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/products/series/88394/6th-generation-intel-core-i3-processors.html

 

4th Generation Intel® Core™ i3 Processors
https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/products/series/75025/4th-generation-intel-core-i3-processors.html

[robertodiwolvo]

On 9/10/2019 at 1:53 PM, auricgoldfinger said:

 

The dynamics are certainly better.  It's been awhile since I made the switch from 12v to 19v, but I also seem to recall the bass was more palpable and the image was more three dimensional.

 

On 9/10/2019 at 2:52 PM, Dutch said:

If both 12V and 19V PSU’s can deliver 3A, the 19V can also deliver more continuous power: P=V*I so 19*3=57W vs 12*3=36W.

After reexemaning my choice to go with a 12V Farad3 for my Nuc7i5dnke, I've contacted Mattijs and was able to exchange mine for a 19v unit. The 12v unit already impressed me, but the 19v does indeed give more dynamics, a better controlled bass and also a better sorted 3d image. This is of course in my system, but I do think the 19v generally is a better choice for a NUC. Either way, the Farad3 really is a tremendous upgrade. 

[auricgoldfinger]

I have been using industrial RAM in my 7i7DNHE endpoint and 7i7DNBE server for the past several months.  Specifically, this memory:

 

https://www.soselectronic.com/products/apacer/75-b93gj-g010b-307859

 

When I was considering this tweak, my first thought was "That seems like a lot of money to spend on memory for a NUC!"  My second thought was "How am I ever going to conduct any A/B testing?" 

 

I decided to start with the endpoint.  Fortunately, the improvement was evident from the moment I re-booted, negating the need for A/B testing.  The best way I can describe the change is to say that the listening experience is more immersive.  The music is more immediate and present. 

 

I subsequently purchased the same RAM for the server.  While the improvement was not as dramatic as with the endpoint, there was definitely an additive effect.

 

I was already very far down the transparency rabbit hole when I undertook this experiment.  Spending $150 (or $300) may not make sense for everyone.  For example, I would allocate budget dollars to a 19v Farad3 or SR4-19 with high quality silver leads before upgrading the RAM.  Getting the power supply right should take precedence.

 

 

[RickyV]

5 hours ago, auricgoldfinger said:

I have been using industrial RAM in my 7i7DNHE endpoint and 7i7DNBE server for the past several months.  Specifically, this memory:

 

https://www.soselectronic.com/products/apacer/75-b93gj-g010b-307859

 

When I was considering this tweak, my first thought was "That seems like a lot of money to spend on memory for a NUC!"  My second thought was "How am I ever going to conduct any A/B testing?" 

 

I decided to start with the endpoint.  Fortunately, the improvement was evident from the moment I re-booted, negating the need for A/B testing.  The best way I can describe the change is to say that the listening experience is more immersive.  The music is more immediate and present. 

 

I subsequently purchased the same RAM for the server.  While the improvement was not as dramatic as with the endpoint, there was definitely an additive effect.

 

I was already very far down the transparency rabbit hole when I undertook this experiment.  Spending $150 (or $300) may not make sense for everyone.  For example, I would allocate budget dollars to a 19v Farad3 or SR4-19 with high quality silver leads before upgrading the RAM.  Getting the power supply right should take precedence.

 

 

 

Sounds interesting I was looking for ram for my nuc7i7dn, Euphony, endpoint. 4Gb would be enough wouldn’t it?

What about this one, little less data rate transfer but lower latency too?

https://www.soselectronic.com/products/apacer/75-b93gr-g000b-1-287715

or

This one if you want to occupy both slots. It is preferable to occupy both slots, isn’t it?

https://www.soselectronic.com/products/apacer/78-a2gfe-4000b-288094

[auricgoldfinger]

9 minutes ago, RickyV said:

 

Sounds interesting I was looking for ram for my nuc7i7dn, Euphony, endpoint. 4Gb would be enough wouldn’t it?

 

 

I would ask Euphony about their minimum requirements.

 

10 minutes ago, RickyV said:

What about this one, little less data rate transfer but lower latency too?

https://www.soselectronic.com/products/apacer/75-b93gr-g000b-1-287715

or

This one if you want to occupy both slots. It is preferable to occupy both slots, isn’t it?

https://www.soselectronic.com/products/apacer/78-a2gfe-4000b-288094

 

I really don't have the technical expertise to answer these questions or to even hazard a guess as to whether you would hear a difference in sound quality.  I have two 4GB modules in both of my NUCs.

[Gavin1977]

Both have the same specs and just differ in capacity.  CAS latency of 15 is nothing special,  12 or 10 would be better if available.  I’m not familiar with EEC memory, but maybe CAS latency is slightly higher with EEC.  Have a look and see what you can find.