A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming

[Dev]

I compared Euphony running from USB vs Optane in a single server setup with NUC i7.  Optane sounds much better in my setup - just wow. With USB I had some bit of glare with certain songs but I don’t have them with Optane. Earlier with AL (and ramroot) I was using Wifi which sounded much better than Ethernet as I don't use any audiophile switches and cables. Euphony doesn't have wifi support and hence I am forced to use Ethernet - not sure what optimizing its doing on the Ethernet to make it sound this good. Comparing Stylus with Roon running from Optane, Stylus still wins hands down in terms of SQ - much more fuller sound, coherent and less glare. I gather that Stylus uses MPD internally but whatever it is I would think it’s all do with the buffering and playing from RAM.  As much as I miss Roon’s library management, the Stylus SQ is wining over me at this time. It’s great to have choices and the ability to switch between them with a click of a button, use a single box solution and reduce clutter. The differences are bigger between Roon and Stylus when running from USB and this is what I was expecting as well. The question now for me is where do I go from here ? I might be trying the server/streamer combo route with Roon next but I only have a Celeron based NUC streamer, so I am not sure if the results will be comparable.

[Johnseye]

10 minutes ago, Dev said:

I compared Euphony running from USB vs Optane in a single server setup with NUC i7.  Optane sounds much better in my setup - just wow. With USB I had some bit of glare with certain songs but I don’t have them with Optane. Earlier with AL (and ramroot) I was using Wifi which sounded much better than Ethernet as I don't use any audiophile switches and cables. Euphony doesn't have wifi support and hence I am forced to use Ethernet - not sure what optimizing its doing on the Ethernet to make it sound this good. Comparing Stylus with Roon running from Optane, Stylus still wins hands down in terms of SQ - much more fuller sound, coherent and less glare. I gather that Stylus uses MPD internally but whatever it is I would think it’s all do with the buffering and playing from RAM.  As much as I miss Roon’s library management, the Stylus SQ is wining over me at this time. It’s great to have choices and the ability to switch between them with a click of a button, use a single box solution and reduce clutter. The differences are bigger between Roon and Stylus when running from USB and this is what I was expecting as well. The question now for me is where do I go from here ? I might be trying the server/streamer combo route with Roon next but I only have a Celeron based NUC streamer, so I am not sure if the results will be comparable.

 

From your recollection how does Euphony using Roon (not Stylus) compare to AL running Roon in ramroot mode? 

[rickca]

14 minutes ago, Dev said:

The question now for me is where do I go from here ?

So are you saying that on your server Euphony/Optane sounds better than AL/ramroot?

[Dev]

2 minutes ago, Johnseye said:

 

From your recollection how does Euphony using Roon (not Stylus) compare to AL running Roon in ramroot mode? 

 

I have never tested AL (ramroot) in a single pc setup. I always had AL in a server/streamer combo with i7 NUC as server and Celeron NUC as a streamer. I will do this comparison shortly but from recollection, I would think they sound about the same (but take it with a grain of salt for now). For Roon server/bridge combo, I have always preferred squeezelite or networkaudio as the endpoint.  

[rickca]

For those running Windows and can live without Roon, do a free trial of TuneBrowser Version 4.9.2.  I think you will be very pleasantly surprised.  I'm running the 64-bit AVX2 version.  Just use Google translate.  All the hover help is in English.

https://tunebrowser.tikisoft.net/download/

 

[Dev]

16 minutes ago, rickca said:

So are you saying that on your server Euphony/Optane sounds better than AL/ramroot?

 

Rick, in my current state of affairs, the Euphony/Optane/Stylus has sounded the best from whatever combination of AL/ramroot/server/streamer/Roon/Squeezelite setup I was running earlier. The Matrix i2s converter (powered by SR4) was connected to the Celeron NUC when I was running AL. Now it connects directly to i7 NUC running Euphony. As Roy and other have said, the i7 can make a difference and meaningful comparison would be to try AL/Ramroot on i7 NUC with USB connected directly. Though I would not be able to run Stylus on AL, but we should be able to run Roon on both the OS and compare. If they sound the same, then Stylus would be making a bigger difference than the OS itself and I think that would be an important finding.

[Nenon]

I have seen some comments about adding EMI absorbing paper on the RAM. It seems like the Statement has done the same. 

Are you covering just the top side or both sides?

 

[Chopin75]

8 hours ago, Dev said:

 

Rick, in my current state of affairs, the Euphony/Optane/Stylus has sounded the best from whatever combination of AL/ramroot/server/streamer/Roon/Squeezelite setup I was running earlier. The Matrix i2s converter (powered by SR4) was connected to the Celeron NUC when I was running AL. Now it connects directly to i7 NUC running Euphony. As Roy and other have said, the i7 can make a difference and meaningful comparison would be to try AL/Ramroot on i7 NUC with USB connected directly. Though I would not be able to run Stylus on AL, but we should be able to run Roon on both the OS and compare. If they sound the same, then Stylus would be making a bigger difference than the OS itself and I think that would be an important finding.

YES, Would love to know the results of such comparison, though I don't even do roon. Another option is to try HQplayer running embedded in Euphony vs HQP running on AL  (i think there is Linux version)

[Chopin75]

2 hours ago, Nenon said:

I have seen some comments about adding EMI absorbing paper on the RAM. It seems like the Statement has done the same. 

Are you covering just the top side or both sides?

 

What drive is this ?? Looks like a CD drive

[Nenon]

1 minute ago, Chopin75 said:

What drive is this ?? Looks like a CD drive

 

Innuos Statement

[idesign]

What is the latest novel approach to routers and NUCs or high-end servers? I am considering purchasing a new router (e.g. NETGEAR RAX120 or R7800) but want to think through the this purchase from the audiophile's point of view. In the past I have been hardwired directly from my network drop and haven't employed any audiophile grade routers/switches. What yardage can I gain or lose?

[Solid-State]

buy a decent router from ex,
Netgate, Mikrotik, Routerboard, or Unifi

[Hardinge]

On 3/27/2019 at 9:35 AM, austinpop said:

I just realized I'd forgotten a component in my diagram. In my listening room, I had added a Netgear GS105 with a JSGT-shunted LPS for general hygiene. Based on John Swenson's studies, the Netgear is one of the switches whose port magnetics effectively isolate upstream noise, in conjunction with a ground-shunted LPS.

 

The Router manifest's itself in each room as an Ethernet port in the wall, and there is in-wall Cat 5e wiring from that port to the actual router in my master closet.

 

Hope this all makes sense.

 

 

Sorry to bother but i'm seeing 2 options for the Netgear GS105, which is the JS recommended?

https://www.umart.com.au/Netgear-GS105PE-5-Port-Gigabit--2-Port-POE--No-Power-Adapter_27922G.html

https://www.umart.com.au/Netgear-GS105-5-Port-Gigabit-switch_5604G.html

Thanks!

[sunny_time_99]

1 hour ago, TubeMan said:

buy a decent router from ex,
Netgate, Mikrotik, Routerboard, or Unifi 

Hi,

even though i was not asking, its very interesting for me too. do you know if the Routers can handle vdsl? 

regards

 

sunny

[austinpop]

28 minutes ago, Hardinge said:

 

Sorry to bother but i'm seeing 2 options for the Netgear GS105, which is the JS recommended?

https://www.umart.com.au/Netgear-GS105PE-5-Port-Gigabit--2-Port-POE--No-Power-Adapter_27922G.html

https://www.umart.com.au/Netgear-GS105-5-Port-Gigabit-switch_5604G.html

Thanks!

 

https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/37034-smps-and-grounding/?do=findComment&comment=736293

 

The one I have is the 2nd link in your post.

 

[austinpop]

15 hours ago, austinpop said:

 

I'm in the process of evaluating Euphony. I'm trying it on both the server and the endpoint. 

 

Due to the Roon Bridge bug that @bobfa mentioned, I'm running Roon Core on the server, and Squeezelite on the endpoint. SQ is definitely different, and it has nothing to do with Stylus. I'll say more after further listening.

 

Listening Impressions with Euphony

 

I finally got a chance to do some concentrated listening with Euphony. I was running Roon Core on the server, with SL (Squeezelite) on the endpoint. Refer to my system topology I posted here a couple days ago. Euphony was trivial to setup and run. Since both my custom server and i7 NUC endpoint can support Legacy and UEFI boot devices simultaneously, it was easy enough to switch between a UEFI AL USB stick and a Legacy Euphony USB stick.

 

Here are some emerging conclusions:

1. Euphony definitely sounds better than AL/ramroot
   • darker, calmer, less harsh
   • more natural, organic, realistic
   • better bass
   • smoother highs
2. Impact on server is much bigger than endpoint. Although...
3. Endpoint matters too, so ideally one needs Euphony on both.

So far, this mirrors what @romaz, @bobfa ad others have found. However, on the endpoint, it gets interesting. On AL, I run SL with tuned buffer settings (-b and -a options), described in my earlier posts. Euphony does not expose a way to set these buffers. To do an apples to apples comparison, I ran SL on AL with default settings just like Euphony. In this default mode, Euphony provides the same benefit of reduced glare and more natural and fuller sound. Here's where it gets interesting. When I return to the tuned buffers, AL really opens up, and then it becomes a study of contrasts. AL is airier and more resolving, Euphony, darker, more natural, but also smaller and flatter. 

 

I discussed my findings with Željko Vranić of Euphony. I was encouraged to learn that they are open to enabling some controlled level of tuning for things like SL buffers, bridging, and other tuning options for power users like us.

 

If these changes pan out, along with a more reasonable pricing model for a server/endpoint setup, then Euphony is a very compelling offering. Yes, it's not cheap, but the SQ benefits are definitely there.

 

P.S. Before anyone asks, I did not look at Stylus. I am too entrenched in the Roon-iverse to consider changing to anything else. I am only interested in products that can improve the SQ of Roon servers and endpoints.

[sunny_time_99]

@austinpop did he talk about re-thinking the pricing model, so thats a bit cheaper for Server/endpoint users?

regards

sunny

 

[mozes]

1 hour ago, austinpop said:

Endpoint matters too, so ideally one needs Euphony on both. 

I tried Euphony on my sCLK-EX custom end point with SL and running LMS on my server and in many aspects it sounds better than Win 10+AO2.2+Fidelizer. Mainly mirrors what you found, more natural, less harsh and more realism. The only downside is that the sound stage is a bit narrower than before. I haven't tried Euphony on my Nimitra server yet, I think I won't get optimal results given that it is a low powered device.

[Dutch]

12 hours ago, Nenon said:

I have seen some comments about adding EMI absorbing paper on the RAM. It seems like the Statement has done the same. 

Are you covering just the top side or both sides?

 

 

Coincidentally I’ve applied some 3M AB5100SHF (which replaced the popular 3M AB5100S) to my RAM modules inside the NUC7i7DN when I built it recently. I also applied some of it to the top of all the motherboard connectors which are exposed to the outside (usb, ethernet etc.) like Innuos also does to the ethernet ports and most right port in your picture. With the 3M material I used (1mm thickness) I couldn’t apply it to both sides of the SO-DIMM modules since then it would not seat properly so I applied it to just the top sides. Unfortunately I can’t tell if it made a difference since I was changing too many things at once.

 

Having read much about experiences of others with the EMI absorbers in the past I’ve been careful not to overdo it (use too much). Recently Romaz also mentioned he once did this and it then seems to dampen too much and give a bit of a lifeless sound. 

[rickca]

5 hours ago, austinpop said:

both my custom server and i7 NUC endpoint can support Legacy and UEFI boot devices simultaneously

How do you set up BIOS so that you can boot in either mode?  Is that what you mean by simultaneously?

[ted_b]

6 hours ago, austinpop said:

If these changes pan out, along with a more reasonable pricing model for a server/endpoint setup, then Euphony is a very compelling offering. Yes, it's not cheap, but the SQ benefits are definitely there.

Rajiv, I get that Euphony costs $295 per box, and that AL is free.  But it seems you and others have found sq improvements with it, so I ask this, in light of your "it's not cheap" comments, and insistence of Roon (which is also not cheap)....are there better $295 sq investments to make instead?  I ask cuz it seems like the road to your current setup involved several investments that make Euphony's one pale in comparison.  I could be wrong.  Thx

[austinpop]

5 hours ago, sunny_time_99 said:

@austinpop did he talk about re-thinking the pricing model, so thats a bit cheaper for Server/endpoint users?

regards

sunny

 

 

They’re considering some options. Hopefully they’ll roll out something soon, but I don’t have any details yet.

[austinpop]

4 minutes ago, ted_b said:

Rajiv, I get that Euphony costs $295 per box, and that AL is free.  But it seems you and others have found sq improvements with it, so I ask this, in light of your "it's not cheap" comments, and insistence of Roon (which is also not cheap)....are there better $295 sq investments to make instead?  I ask cuz it seems like the road to your current setup involved several investments that make Euphony's one pale in comparison.  I could be wrong.  Thx

 

Hi Ted,

 

AL isn’t actually free  but your point is well taken. That’s a good way to look at it. Is there a better way to spend that amount for that SQ benefit.

 

I need to listen more, and luckily they have a 30-day trial, so you don’t need to rush a decision.

[austinpop]

42 minutes ago, rickca said:

How do you set up BIOS so that you can boot in either mode?  Is that what you mean by simultaneously?

 

My older Dell BIOS has to be set in either UEFI or Legacy mode, and can then only see devices of that flavor.

 

These new machines - my custom server and i7 NUC - can have both modes on, so you can intermingle UEFI and Legacy devices in the boot order.

[greenleo]

On 3/28/2019 at 10:42 PM, dgarretson said:

Regarding the Lessloss 64x Firewall, before purchasing the DIY version, I went for one finished, boxed version with AC pigtails that can be mated up in series with any AC cord and moved around the system for evaluation. The only issue with the DIY installation is that you need a hot solder gun and low-temp solder in order to work quickly without distorting the clear epoxy that covers the center section of the Firewall element.  I used Wondersolder and  a 150W trigger operated Rat Shack gun. 

 

https://www.lessloss.com/firewall-module-p-216.html

 

Here's another one inside a Pass XP-25 phono stage power supply chassis.

SQ wise, which is better, the DIY or the finished box version?