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A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming


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Most important: please realize this thread is about bleeding edge experimentation and discovery. No one has The Answer™. If you are not into tweaking, just know that you can have a musically satisfying system without doing any of the nutty things we do here.

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6 minutes ago, mikicasellas said:

 

Man, thanks a lot for sharing these findings, it is A LOT OF HELP !

 

I tried to install the Euphony IMAGE on my NUC7PJYH and i couldn't because that NUC does not support Legacy Boot, then i am thinking to add a SSD to the NUC to try Euphony and so i can have a taste of it, and wait for that i9-9900T, seems that if im going to build a machine better to wait !

 

I am really intending to do Euphony with only one machine, to keep it as simple as possible !

 

Any idea how much more expensive that processor will be ?

I am just curious on why don't you like AMD RYZEN ? They can run on an extremely low latency, Also to keep all the power in control the processor and the motherboard are build very solid and with good ground planes which result in better performance for sound quality. Also AMD Ryzen 7 2700 is 8-cores/16-thread 65w TDP

 

Warm Regards

 

There is some issue with the V3 of Euphony which also no longer can boot my old Macbook. My HDplex LPS is being exchanged for an newer version so I can't boot euphony right now  so I am not able to try to boot with the V3. V2 is fine (I bought the V2) . You can try copying the image to a SATA SSD and internally boot, like the one Euphony sells (but you just DIY yourself).  I use the Ryzen 2700 and works great. Will PM you later in more detail about my setup, time for bed  here in US (EST) !  

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13 minutes ago, mikicasellas said:

 

Man, thanks a lot for sharing these findings, it is A LOT OF HELP !

 

I tried to install the Euphony IMAGE on my NUC7PJYH and i couldn't because that NUC does not support Legacy Boot, then i am thinking to add a SSD to the NUC to try Euphony and so i can have a taste of it, and wait for that i9-9900T, seems that if im going to build a machine better to wait !

 

I am really intending to do Euphony with only one machine, to keep it as simple as possible !

 

Any idea how much more expensive that processor will be ?

I am just curious on why don't you like AMD RYZEN ? They can run on an extremely low latency, Also to keep all the power in control the processor and the motherboard are build very solid and with good ground planes which result in better performance for sound quality. Also AMD Ryzen 7 2700 is 8-cores/16-thread 65w TDP

 

Warm Regards

 

 

I am told UEFI boot for Euphony will be available shortly.

 

I have nothing against AMD.  I went with Intel only because I'm not sure AMD CPUs are compatible with Intel Optane cards.  This shows you how much I want to avoid SSD.  

 

AMD has some purported advantages such as lack of a discrete graphics chip on the CPU's die cast but the soon to be released i9-9900KF will have no discrete graphics chip on the CPU's die cast.  Ultimately, it will require listening tests to know which platform sounds better overall but I know that for my sensitivities, if a platform includes an SSD, it will be hard to overcome that.

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55 minutes ago, shahed99 said:

Last night, after moving to my single server setup (taking the NUC off the chain), the leanness of sound has gone. There is slight reduction of edginess. I might have lost a tiny amount of details and resolution. But the sound is fuller, little thicker and weighty in a pleasant way.

I had same sound signature from AL/NUC+Harbeth combination. My NUC was NUC7PJYH. I initially thought it could be due to celeron CPU. I am not sure this is due to Linux. I borrowed my friend Auralic G1 to compare NUC+AL combo. G1 has fuller and thicker sound. I am going to try Euphony over the next month when time permit and report back. Ot could system as well.

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55 minutes ago, shahed99 said:

Last night, after moving to my single server setup (taking the NUC off the chain), the leanness of sound has gone. There is slight reduction of edginess. I might have lost a tiny amount of details and resolution. But the sound is fuller, little thicker and weighty in a pleasant way.

I had same sound signature from AL/NUC+Harbeth combination. My NUC was NUC7PJYH. I initially thought it could be due to celeron CPU. I am not sure this is due to Linux. I borrowed my friend Auralic G1 to compare NUC+AL combo. G1 has fuller and thicker sound. I am going to try Euphony over the next month when time permit and report back. Ot could system as well.

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1 hour ago, seeteeyou said:

 

While we're anticipating that i7 motherboard from SOtM down the road, what's your take on Xeon D-1500 Family (Broadwell-DE) with 16-core/32-thread processors and 24MB L3 (no SmartCache) cache? 65W TDP for D-1587 / D-1581 and 45W TDP for D-1577 / D-1571 respectively

 

https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/products/series/87041/intel-xeon-d-processor.html

 

Mini-ITX motherboards (with embedded Xeon) are definitely costing too much, $1,499 for 16C (new) and then $735 for 12C (used) as follows

 

https://www.amazon.com/Supermicro-X10SDV-16C-TLN4F-Mini-ITX-Motherboard/dp/B01J2BNF7C

https://www.amazon.com/Supermicro-DDR4-Socket-Motherboard-X10SDV-12C-TLN4F/dp/B01FYD9T5O

 

Then I had to RTFM and noticed the similarities among different models

 

https://www.supermicro.com/manuals/motherboard/D/MNL-1726.pdf

https://www.supermicro.com/products/motherboard/Xeon/D/X10SDV-2C-TLN2F.cfm

https://www.supermicro.com/products/motherboard/Xeon/D/X10SDV-4C-TLN2F.cfm

https://www.supermicro.com/products/motherboard/Xeon/D/X10SDV-4C-TLN4F.cfm

https://www.supermicro.com/products/motherboard/Xeon/D/X10SDV-16C-TLN4F.cfm

 

All of them are actually sharing the same BIOS

 

https://www.supermicro.com/Bios/softfiles/6575/X10SDVF8_A12.zip

https://www.supermicro.com/about/policies/disclaimer.cfm?SoftwareItemID=6575

 

X10SDV-4C-TLN2F costs $425 or less

 

https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=561285950416

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Supermicro-X10SDV-2C-TLN2F-Motherboard-Mini-ITX-Pentium-D1508-FULL-WARRANTY/253883158203

 

A little bit more for X10SDV-4C-TLN4F

 

https://www.amazon.com/Supermicro-X10SDV-4C-TLN4F-Mini-ITX-Motherboard/dp/B01FEM8D8E

 

Cheapest one is X10SDV-2C-TLN2F for just under $355

 

https://www.wiredzone.com/supermicro-components-motherboards-embedded-processor-x10sdv-2c-tln2f-10026018

 

50 bucks for D-1577 and I'm just assuming that's the real deal even if tons of positive feedback might or might not be legit

 

https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=563277698154

 

Some sellers do offer BGA upgrades for mobile Core i7 so Xeon D might not be such a big deal?

 

https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=561888282958

https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=575472777357

 

At most we're gonna lose roughly $500 if anything were going south, is it still worth the risk?

 

It's tough to know what to make of these Xeons.  More cores (which is good) but smaller amount of cache per core (which is probably not so good).   Also, it's not yet clear where the saturation point is where more cores results in no further improvement in SQ or where compromising CPU frequency for the sake of more cores becomes detrimental.  Lastly, the downside of certain CPUs is that they're not compatible with Optane and that appears to be the case here.

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3 hours ago, romaz said:

 

I'll venture a guess.  Your optimized server is better than your unoptimized NUC.

 

Adequately powered, the more powerful CPU should sound fuller and more dynamic, at least that has been my experience, however, in your case, the 4770T in your server and the 8650U in your NUC are comparably spec'd and so it's probably not the CPU but rather the PSU.  The sPS-500 is a decent PSU but despite its 19V/5A rating, I find it doesn't do a great job on my NUC.  On my Celeron NUC that I could power with an LPS-1.2, I found the LPS-1.2 to sound better at 12V than the sPS-500 at 19V and so I suspect your Teradak ATX PSU is doing a better job on your server than the sPS-500 is doing on the NUC.  If your Teradak has a 19V or 12V rail that you can apply to the NUC, try it there and see what you think.  Put something like an SR7 or the TLS Reference 1 to the NUC and you may change your mind about the NUC sounding thin.

 

Also, if you're using an independently powered SOtM PCIe USB card in your server, this is obviously giving your server an edge over your unmodified NUC.  Try connecting your server to your DAC using one of standard integrated USB ports on your motherboard and the delta that you hear might give you some idea of how much better your NUC could sound once you send it to SOtM for clock replacement.

 

As for WS2016 + AO sounding thicker, fuller and weightier than AL, the easiest way to find out in your system is just to boot your server into AL using a USB stick and compare.  They both can be tuned to sound fuller or leaner.  Regarding Euphony vs AL, yes, to my ears, Euphony sounds fuller and weightier and so it will cost you nothing to give Euphony a try but ultimately, if you're already happy with what you're getting from just your server, perhaps it's time to sell the NUC and stay with what you already have.  Finding the perfect balance is a tricky thing and what works for one person may not work for another but once you find that perfect balance, it's golden.

The SPS500 is more sledge hammer than scalpel when it comes to extracting detail. But an LPS 1.2 runs out of juice too soon with NUC's, you feel like you are having

to tear pieces off the airplane (in BIOS) just to get it to fly. Wonder if anyone has tried/compared parallel LPS 1.2's to power endpoint NUC... seems to me that a split Ghent cable

would make that possible?

 

 

Regards,

Dave

 

Audio system

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2 hours ago, Advieira said:

IMPRESSIONS WITH A NUC SERVER

 

Mikrotik router SFP Fiber + Nuc7i7BDNE Akasa (LPS Zerozone) > SnH-10G sclk-ex (stock ps) > Direcstream Sr. Bridge II

 

AudioLinux Ram: sound very sharp, bright, lean, very detailed, a little fatigating, very stable (nuc gets very hot)

Windows Server Data Center 2019 (no A.O) (M.2): details, bodied, harmonics richness, very enjoyable, network not very stable occasionally

 

I will keep AL for some auditions and impressing some friends, but for my ears, WS19 sounds better (understanding better as natural and real).

 

Now, I didn't understood why all that AL fuss...

could you share what you are using for analog pre and amplifier? Its not listed in your profile system.

Regards,

Dave

 

Audio system

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3 hours ago, davide256 said:

Wonder if anyone has tried/compared parallel LPS 1.2's to power endpoint NUC... seems to me that a split Ghent cable

would make that possible?

 

See this:

On 1/15/2018 at 5:59 PM, Superdad said:

The folks who are paralleling separate LT-3045 boards for more current need to be very careful--with matching to within a few milliVolts--or they will end up with one board bearing much more of the load.  I've hand-paired a few LPS-1 boards in the past to allow for parallel connection and higher current, but that is not a service we offer.  

 Of course series connection of units for higher voltage can always be done by anyone. :)

Industry disclosure:
https://chicagohifi.com

Dealer for: Taiko Audio, Conrad Johnson, Audio Mirror, and Sean Jacobs

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3 hours ago, davide256 said:

The SPS500 is more sledge hammer than scalpel when it comes to extracting detail. But an LPS 1.2 runs out of juice too soon with NUC's, you feel like you are having

to tear pieces off the airplane (in BIOS) just to get it to fly.

 

You summarized this perfectly!

 

3 hours ago, davide256 said:

Wonder if anyone has tried/compared parallel LPS 1.2's to power endpoint NUC... seems to me that a split Ghent cable

would make that possible?

 

I already did this and posted my observations in my War and Peace length post.  I bought the requisite serial Y-cable from Ghent and combined two LPS-1.2s in serial and the outcome was not good.  SQ took a big hit and the LPS-1.2 sounded nothing like an LPS-1.2.  Noise floor is higher and details are muddied.  I don't think I can blame the cable since I asked Ghent to use his best wire (Neotech 7N OCC) and a JSSG360 shield with Oyaide plugs.  

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2 minutes ago, romaz said:

I already did this and posted my observations in my War and Peace length post.  I bought the requisite serial Y-cable from Ghent and combined two LPS-1.2s in serial and the outcome was not good.  SQ took a big hit and the LPS-1.2 sounded nothing like an LPS-1.2.  Noise floor is higher and details are muddied.  I don't think I can blame the cable since I asked Ghent to use his best wire (Neotech 7N OCC) and a JSSG360 shield with Oyaide plugs.  

 

My guess is that one LPS is pushed really hard (because the two LPS in parallel are not matched within a few milliVolts), and we all know that an overwhelmed LPS1.2 does not sound very good (or the protection shuts it down). 

In any case, it does not sound like a good idea and it is not recommended by the manufacturer.  

 

Industry disclosure:
https://chicagohifi.com

Dealer for: Taiko Audio, Conrad Johnson, Audio Mirror, and Sean Jacobs

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what is appeal of the Intel 9900 CPU over upcoming Ryzen 3000 series? 

 

The flagship Ryzen 3000 will have 12 cores and 24 threads, bigger cache, probably at a lower cost too... to me it seems like the obvious choice.

 

I had the chance to compare my previous Intel 6600K (4 core 3.5Ghz) to AMD Ryzen 1700 (8core/16thread 3.0GHz) under very similar conditions - Using the same RAM, PCIe USB card, PCIe SATA card, SATA SSD and even the same Windows installation.

BIOS settings were made as similar as possible too - fixed CPU core freq** and C-states off along with ''turbo boost''and ''SpeedStep'' equivalents... (**AMD was set to 3.2GHz, the MoBo does not support overclocking but allows this, it is the fixed base frequency with ''turbo boost'' on, actual boost goes to 3.7GHz.

 

After giving some time for AMD board and CPU to ''burn in'' before comparing I can confidently say the AMD CPU sounded better to me.

the most noticeable improvement with AMD was detail retrieval, which encompasses many subtle aspects of the sound which are difficult to sum up in words, and also liquidity (grainlessness).

While AMD imaging was more precise and detailed it was on the analytical side, pushing music back and flattening it out, I think the Intel gave a better sense of presence... more ''emotional''.

I think the Intel produced better dynamics, but AMD has better transient response... Could be down to differences in clock speed.

There are definitely desirable qualities to both of these CPUs but for a ''Hi Res'' experience the AMD was the clear winner. 

 

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, lmitche said:

Hi Roy,

 

Sorry, but I am not quite sure that the statement that NVME slots avoid the PCH is true. At least with my ASUS z270g MATX motherboard the NVME slot is connected to the PCH. Take a look at the Intel block diagram for an Intel z370 motherboard below.

 

images.thumb.png.95f8dc39c7716b604536e95a128734a4.png

 

Notice that the Optane (NVME) connection is connected to the PCH.

 

But in any case a way to verify this on a running AL system you can type the following two commands into an elevated command prompt.

 

#lspci

#lspci -t

 

Below is the output from my machine. The Optane drive is mounted in an Asus PCIE NVME adpter board and plugged into the 16x PCIE slot. Likewise, a Startech 4 port Asmedia controller is plugged into the x8 PCIE slot.  Both of these slots are connected directly to the CPU.

 

[root@archaudio audiolinux]# lspci
00:00.0 Host bridge: Intel Corporation Xeon E3-1200 v5/E3-1500 v5/6th Gen Core Processor Host Bridge/DRAM Registers (rev 07)
00:01.0 PCI bridge: Intel Corporation Xeon E3-1200 v5/E3-1500 v5/6th Gen Core Processor PCIe Controller (x16) (rev 07)
00:01.1 PCI bridge: Intel Corporation Xeon E3-1200 v5/E3-1500 v5/6th Gen Core Processor PCIe Controller (x8) (rev 07)
00:02.0 VGA compatible controller: Intel Corporation HD Graphics 530 (rev 06)
00:14.0 USB controller: Intel Corporation 200 Series/Z370 Chipset Family USB 3.0 xHCI Controller
00:16.0 Communication controller: Intel Corporation 200 Series PCH CSME HECI #1
00:1b.0 PCI bridge: Intel Corporation 200 Series PCH PCI Express Root Port #17 (rev f0)
00:1c.0 PCI bridge: Intel Corporation 200 Series PCH PCI Express Root Port #1 (rev f0)
00:1c.4 PCI bridge: Intel Corporation 200 Series PCH PCI Express Root Port #5 (rev f0)
00:1c.6 PCI bridge: Intel Corporation 200 Series PCH PCI Express Root Port #7 (rev f0)
00:1d.0 PCI bridge: Intel Corporation 200 Series PCH PCI Express Root Port #9 (rev f0)
00:1f.0 ISA bridge: Intel Corporation 200 Series PCH LPC Controller (Z270)
00:1f.2 Memory controller: Intel Corporation 200 Series/Z370 Chipset Family Power Management Controller
00:1f.4 SMBus: Intel Corporation 200 Series/Z370 Chipset Family SMBus Controller
01:00.0 Non-Volatile memory controller: Intel Corporation Device 2522
02:00.0 PCI bridge: Pericom Semiconductor Device 2308
03:01.0 PCI bridge: Pericom Semiconductor Device 2308
03:02.0 PCI bridge: Pericom Semiconductor Device 2308
04:00.0 USB controller: ASMedia Technology Inc. ASM1142 USB 3.1 Host Controller
05:00.0 USB controller: ASMedia Technology Inc. ASM1142 USB 3.1 Host Controller
[root@archaudio audiolinux]# lspci -t
-[0000:00]-+-00.0
           +-01.0-[01]----00.0
           +-01.1-[02-05]----00.0-[03-05]--+-01.0-[04]----00.0
           |                               \-02.0-[05]----00.0
           +-02.0
           +-14.0
           +-16.0
           +-1b.0-[06]--
           +-1c.0-[07]--
           +-1c.4-[08]--
           +-1c.6-[09]--
           +-1d.0-[0a]--
           +-1f.0
           +-1f.2
           \-1f.4
[root@archaudio audiolinux]#

 

While it is a bit cryptic, you can use the output of the first command to decode that tree presented in the second command.  One can see the Optane card at bus address 01:00.0 Non-Volatile memory controller: Intel Corporation Device 2522. From the tree diagram that card is connected to the CPU via  +-01.0-[01]----00.0 directly to the CPU at -[0000:00]-+-00.0.

 

One can also see the Startech 4 port USB card with two Asmedia controllers plugged into the x8 PCIE slot in another direct to cpu configuration.

 

If you can run and post the same commands and related output we can see what is happening on your ITX motherboard.

 

Thanks,

 

Larry

 

Larry, you are absolutely correct and your block diagram says it all!  Unfortunately, it would appear the block diagram you showed is the block diagram for the Z390 in general and so this would suggest it applies not just to your ASUS board but possibly for all Z390 boards.  If so, that would mean that Optane and any other M.2-based peripherals including NVMe SSDs as well as any SATA device would have to go through the PCH.

 

This is perhaps an advantage of the late model NUCs or just about all boards that have embedded CPUs is that they utilize an SoC architecture and are not beholden to the potential bottleneck of a PCH.  Ultimately, the PCH in the newer boards are not the bottleneck of old and may not limit performance.  The highway (DMI or direct media interface) that connects the CPU to the PCH has much greater bandwidth today (DMI 3.0) than it did with motherboards that came out before 2015 (DMI 2.0).  Further to that, if your music server or endpoint is running headless where a keyboard, mouse, and monitor are not connected and if no extra peripherals like storage drives, audio cards, scanners, etc., are installed, then there may not be much competing traffic going through the PCH.

 

What is clear is that any PCIe X16 slot on these boards bypasses the PCH and so anything installed into that slot (i.e. the JCAT card or Optane card) is bypassing the PCH.  Since the Optane card in my server is really only functioning as a repository for the Roon database since most or all OS functions are already in memory, then the Optane card running through the PCH may be less of an issue. 

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30 minutes ago, numlog said:

what is appeal of the Intel 9900 CPU over upcoming Ryzen 3000 series? 

 

The flagship Ryzen 3000 will have 12 cores and 24 threads, bigger cache, probably at a lower cost too... to me it seems like the obvious choice.

 

I had the chance to compare my previous Intel 6600K (4 core 3.5Ghz) to AMD Ryzen 1700 (8core/16thread 3.0GHz) under very similar conditions - Using the same RAM, PCIe USB card, PCIe SATA card, SATA SSD and even the same Windows installation.

BIOS settings were made as similar as possible too - fixed CPU core freq** and C-states off along with ''turbo boost''and ''SpeedStep'' equivalents... (**AMD was set to 3.2GHz, the MoBo does not support overclocking but allows this, it is the fixed base frequency with ''turbo boost'' on, actual boost goes to 3.7GHz.

 

After giving some time for AMD board and CPU to ''burn in'' before comparing I can confidently say the AMD CPU sounded better to me.

the most noticeable improvement with AMD was detail retrieval, which encompasses many subtle aspects of the sound which are difficult to sum up in words, and also liquidity (grainlessness).

While AMD imaging was more precise and detailed it was on the analytical side, pushing music back and flattening it out, I think the Intel gave a better sense of presence... more ''emotional''.

I think the Intel produced better dynamics, but AMD has better transient response... Could be down to differences in clock speed.

There are definitely desirable qualities to both of these CPUs but for a ''Hi Res'' experience the AMD was the clear winner. 

 

 

 

 

 

Once again, I'm not knocking AMD.  Maybe the Ryzen 3000 series is better and maybe that's the way to go but I don't know since I haven't tested anything from AMD thus far.  As stated a few times, my purpose for sticking with Intel during my testing thus far is that Intel CPUs are compatible with Intel Optane.  If I have to throw an SSD into my system, the Ryzen really has to be that much better to make up for the downside of having an SSD.

 

As for comparing an older generation i5 with only 4 cores and a paltry 6MB of SmartCache against an 8-core Ryzen with a 16MB cache, that's not really a fair comparison.

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3 hours ago, drjimwillie said:

Austinpop-Sir, on the 400W HDplex LPS, did you bypass the exterior ATX interface and insert the cable through a port on the case and plug directly into the ATX interface on the motherboard? 

 

Yes, exactly. This was not a choice, as the H3 case does not have an ATX input in any case. So the only option is to snake the cable through the PCIe slot opening, and connect it directly to the motherboard.

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12 minutes ago, romaz said:

 

Once again, I'm not knocking AMD.  Maybe the Ryzen 3000 series is better and maybe that's the way to go but I don't know since I haven't tested anything from AMD thus far.  As stated a few times, my purpose for sticking with Intel during my testing thus far is that Intel CPUs are compatible with Intel Optane.  If I have to throw an SSD into my system, the Ryzen really has to be that much better to make up for the downside of having an SSD.

 

As for comparing an older generation i5 with only 4 cores and a paltry 6MB of SmartCache against an 8-core Ryzen with a 16MB cache, that's not really a fair comparison.

My optane M.2 card works with this AMD CPU (maybe performance isnt optimal? not sure, could test somehow if you're interested).

 

True, in terms of specs its not a fair comparison, it was mostly for fun, but what about in terms of value? what is roughly the Intel equivalent to $160 Ryzen 1700?

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35 minutes ago, numlog said:

My optane M.2 card works with this AMD CPU (maybe performance isnt optimal? not sure, could test somehow if you're interested).

 

Very helpful, thanks.  It wasn't clear to me that AMD CPUs are compatible with Optane memory.  With Intel CPUs, not all Intel CPUs are compatible. 

 

37 minutes ago, numlog said:

True, in terms of specs its not a fair comparison, it was mostly for fun, but what about in terms of value? what is roughly the Intel equivalent to $160 Ryzen 1700?

 

Value is certainly an important consideration and in the end, that may be what tips the decision to go with AMD.  At this time, my objective is to search for performance and to find where the ceilings are.

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28 minutes ago, numlog said:

I think optane ''Support'' refers to its intended function as high speed cache for hard drives, rather than as typical storage.

Correct.  Optane will work in any system that supports an NVMe PCIe V3 x2 SSD.  The newer, as yet unavailable Optane M15 and 815P require x4.

 

Optane Memory caching requires a Kaby Lake or newer platform and the use of Intel's Optane Memory storage drivers for Windows. Otherwise, both the M15 and 815P are standard NVMe SSDs that can be used as regular data or boot drives in any system that supports flash-based NVMe SSDs.

Pareto Audio AMD 7700 Server --> Berkeley Alpha USB --> Jeff Rowland Aeris --> Jeff Rowland 625 S2 --> Focal Utopia 3 Diablos with 2 x Focal Electra SW 1000 BE subs

 

i7-6700K/Windows 10  --> EVGA Nu Audio Card --> Focal CMS50's 

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41 minutes ago, romaz said:

Value is certainly an important consideration and in the end, that may be what tips the decision to go with AMD.  At this time, my objective is to search for performance and to find where the ceilings are.

Its also a choice between core speed or core/thread count and cache size, one of them has to be more important.

The latter appeals to my ''beliefs'' more, cores and cache being physical hardware differences, core speed being flexible with any CPU.

 

 

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