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A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming


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Most important: please realize this thread is about bleeding edge experimentation and discovery. No one has The Answer™. If you are not into tweaking, just know that you can have a musically satisfying system without doing any of the nutty things we do here.

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So much useful information on this thread. Thank you for all the contributions. I have spent several days going over all the posts, and starting with over 500 pages did not make it easy to catch up. But I finally did after a few sleepless nights. I can see consensus on many topics and different opinions on others, but I mostly get a pretty good idea on everything, except one area. Storage. It seems like there is a consensus that SSD drives are noisy and people boot from a USB drive or Optane. If the OS loads to the RAM, the USB gets unplugged. The Optane does not seem to cause much harm. But what about your music? I have 1TB worth of ripped CDs. How do people get that music to their favorite player (I use Roon). Here are some of the options:

1. SSD drive with a dedicated LPS. Too noisy / adding harshness to the music.

2. HDD. Also noisy + vibrations.

3. USB flash drive. Limited storage.

4. External USB hard drive with dedicated LPS. Shared USB with your DAC could be a problem. HDD or SSD based? 

5. Get the files over the network. Perhaps with good NICs/switches/cables that may not be that bad, but how would the files be stored on the server and wouldn't we run into the same problems (i.e. SSD is noisy and harsh, HDD has noise and vibrations, etc.).

 

I am sure there are many other options. What do you think is the best way to get 1TB of music to your player? I will try to do some comparisons but wanted to narrow down some of the options to begin with. 

 

Here is a test that I just did.

Loaded AL in ramroot. Plugged in an external USB drive and mounted it. Copied an album from the USB drive to /root (essentially to RAM). Configured Roon to look for new music in /root. Unmounted and unplugged the USB drive. Played the album in Roon. Also disconnected the network cable after hitting the "Play album" button. It sounded pretty good, but it's not practical at all. 

Industry disclosure:
https://chicagohifi.com

Dealer for: Taiko Audio, Conrad Johnson, Audio Mirror, and Sean Jacobs

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58 minutes ago, Nenon said:

So much useful information on this thread. Thank you for all the contributions. I have spent several days going over all the posts, and starting with over 500 pages did not make it easy to catch up. But I finally did after a few sleepless nights. I can see consensus on many topics and different opinions on others, but I mostly get a pretty good idea on everything, except one area. Storage. It seems like there is a consensus that SSD drives are noisy and people boot from a USB drive or Optane. If the OS loads to the RAM, the USB gets unplugged. The Optane does not seem to cause much harm. But what about your music? I have 1TB worth of ripped CDs. How do people get that music to their favorite player (I use Roon). Here are some of the options:

1. SSD drive with a dedicated LPS. Too noisy / adding harshness to the music.

2. HDD. Also noisy + vibrations.

3. USB flash drive. Limited storage.

4. External USB hard drive with dedicated LPS. Shared USB with your DAC could be a problem. HDD or SSD based? 

5. Get the files over the network. Perhaps with good NICs/switches/cables that may not be that bad, but how would the files be stored on the server and wouldn't we run into the same problems (i.e. SSD is noisy and harsh, HDD has noise and vibrations, etc.).

 

I am sure there are many other options. What do you think is the best way to get 1TB of music to your player? I will try to do some comparisons but wanted to narrow down some of the options to begin with. 

 

Here is a test that I just did.

Loaded AL in ramroot. Plugged in an external USB drive and mounted it. Copied an album from the USB drive to /root (essentially to RAM). Configured Roon to look for new music in /root. Unmounted and unplugged the USB drive. Played the album in Roon. Also disconnected the network cable after hitting the "Play album" button. It sounded pretty good, but it's not practical at all. 

I have exactly this problem ... and a good solution.

Music  Library is approaching a Tb / comprises ripped flac / carefully tagged exactly how I want it / backed up to >1 any drive.

I copy whole Library to a 1Tb SSD inside my player PC (single box).

In fb2k I copy over from this SSD only files tagged up as "favourites" per some fb2k Filter (preference HAS 3 AND demo IS 1 etc) using Convert/Copy - the copied files amount to about 220Gb - to a 280Gb PCIe Optane AIC which has the o/s on it too (see post above response to romaz).

Change fb2k Library to the Optane drive and disable SATA in BIOS.

Playing is all "CPU direct".

 

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9 hours ago, romaz said:

 

 

 

The key to the JCAT card is that it can be independently powered.  When powered by an SR4, this card is incredibly good.  When bus-powered, it's just ok.  There's no way to independently power the Ethernet ports on a motherboard.

 

 

Plus there are no switching power supplies on the card which means that the effect of your pristine external LPS is not destroyed :) 

 

Regards, 
Marcin

JPLAY & JCAT Founder

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@austinpop any chance you can produce a better schematic?  I can't make any sense of the one in your above post.  The rest of the content is great.

Pareto Audio AMD 7700 Server --> Berkeley Alpha USB --> Jeff Rowland Aeris --> Jeff Rowland 625 S2 --> Focal Utopia 3 Diablos with 2 x Focal Electra SW 1000 BE subs

 

i7-6700K/Windows 10  --> EVGA Nu Audio Card --> Focal CMS50's 

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7 hours ago, str-1 said:

You mentioned the Innuos Statement server but did not say whether you have had the opportunity, or have had the desire, to try one out in your system.  I'm just wondering if you have a view on whether these one-box solutions (I think of the stacked Statement as virtually one box) are improving to a degree that can come within a stone's throw of the highly optimised systems you and others on this thread are building? 

 

If price is not an issue, I can't deny the huge appeal of a one-box solution like the Statement. It seems to get so many things right - like the bespoke multi-rail, dual-regulated PSU, the upgraded clocks and so on. The main question is how the CPU/mobo compares to the empirically good sounding combo of the NUC/server that Roy, I, and others are playing with. 

 

7 hours ago, str-1 said:

As it happens, I took delivery of an Innuos Statement on Saturday on a one-week loan and will be spending quite a bit of time over the next few days comparing with my Zenith SE, with and without my SR4-powered standard tX-USBultra.

 

You are now on the hook to report back here with your findings, y'hear? :) 

 

I want to know how these compare:

  • Statement vs. SE
  • Statement vs. SE+tX-U
  • Statement vs. Statement+tX-U.
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10 minutes ago, austinpop said:

 

What is unclear about it? 

Here's what it looks like on my screen.  Changing the zoom/font size didn't help.

 

R <----------> NAS in separate room (master closet) - music lives here, and is pulled by the Roon Cores below

O <--------->  Dell server (erstwhile Roon Core) in separate room (study) - soon to be decommissioned

U   

T   dCBL-Cat7                                         dCBL-Cat7                               dCBL-Cat7                                    Lush^2                            JSSG360'd Lush

E <-----------------> new server (bridged) <----------------> switch (SOtM) <----------------> NUC i7 (sCLKed) <-------------> tX-USBultra <---------------------------> DAC    

R                         - HDPlex 400W ATX                         - LPS-1.2-12                           - sPS-500-19                            - LPS-1.2-12

                           - SR4-12 for JCAT

Pareto Audio AMD 7700 Server --> Berkeley Alpha USB --> Jeff Rowland Aeris --> Jeff Rowland 625 S2 --> Focal Utopia 3 Diablos with 2 x Focal Electra SW 1000 BE subs

 

i7-6700K/Windows 10  --> EVGA Nu Audio Card --> Focal CMS50's 

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33 minutes ago, austinpop said:

Custom Server Update - Part 2

 

Following up on my initial update, I've had a few more days to dial in my new server, so here's a summary of findings after extensive experimentation and listening.

 

In this phase, I moved the server into my listening room, so the changes I made were:

  • HDPlex 400W ATX supply now powered from my dedicated circuit and my P5 regenerator, with a Pangea power cable
  • Using bridged mode on JCAT card
  • All Ethernet cabling is now dCBL-Cat7
  • Shuffled power supplies

Here's the schematic of the final configuration:

 

R <----------> NAS in separate room (master closet) - music lives here, and is pulled by the Roon Cores below

O <--------->  Dell server (erstwhile Roon Core) in separate room (study) - soon to be decommissioned

U   

T   dCBL-Cat7                                         dCBL-Cat7                               dCBL-Cat7                                    Lush^2                            JSSG360'd Lush

E <-----------------> new server (bridged) <----------------> switch (SOtM) <----------------> NUC i7 (sCLKed) <-------------> tX-USBultra <---------------------------> DAC    

R                         - HDPlex 400W ATX                         - LPS-1.2-12                           - sPS-500-19                            - LPS-1.2-12

                           - SR4-12 for JCAT

 

The end result is just spectacular. I'm going to be echoing a lot of points from Roy's epic post from the weekend. Compared to my previous Dell server, what I'm hearing with the new server as the Roon Core are:

  • better dynamics
  • cleaner, darker, more relaxed, with no hint of harshness
  • much better attack and bite on transients

You might wonder how the Dell sounds now in this new topology? It's a good question, since if this were purely about isolation and noise rejection, then looking at the picture above, there should be no difference between the Dell and the new server. Yet, there is. The Dell still sounds harsher (though not as much, due to the cleaner topology), and most importantly lacks the dynamics and transient precision.  As Roy found, there is something about server performance that still matters, even in the face of excellent isolation and PSUs. 

 

Below are the individual findings that led to the final topology above.

 

PSU findings

 

Observation: Like Roy, I own 3 LPS-1.2s, and have enjoyed them tremendously, but I seem to have transitioned to a post-LPS-1.2 world, as increasingly, my gear demands PSUs with:

  • >12V voltage
  • >1.1A current

The SR-4 fills this space nicely, at least up to 2-2.5A, but I only have one precious unit. Where to put it? Before I shuffled PSUs, my PSU allocation was:

  • NUC i7: SR4-12
  • tX-U: LPS-1.2-12
  • sNH-10G: LPS-1.2-12
  • JCAT Net: HDPlex 400-5V

Luckily I had a spare SOtM sPS-500 review unit that I temporarily pulled into service. This allowed several experiments:

  1. SR4-12V vs. sPS-500-19V on the NUC i7:
    • That 19V sure helps dynamics, even though the SR-4 is cleaner and less harsh. Still, powering the NUC i7 with an sPS-500-19 sounds very good, and allowed me to free up the SR4. So, where to put this newly freed SR4 - the switch or the JCAT card?
  2. SR4-12V vs. LPS-1.2-12V on sNH-10G switch:
    • I agree with Roy - while the LPS-1.2 powers the switch fine, the SR4-12 is a big step up. I can see how this switch merits a precious SR-7 rail in his setup, because it seem to scale well with PSUs.
  3. HDPlex 5V vs. SR4-5V on JCAT Net Card Femto:
    • WOW - what a huge step up! The SR4-5 finally releases the full potential of this card.

Given the tradeoffs, I found that the SR4 powering the JCAT card in my system was the best use of this precious PSU. I'll obviously reevaluate when PSU reinforcements arrive eventually from the Outer Hebrides.

 

Other Experiments

  • HDPlex PSU on Dedicated circuit/Regenerator vs. separate
    • I was not surprised to find that the server sounded better when the HDPlex was fed clean regenerated AC. 
    • Normally there would be concern about the server polluting the the AC line with noise, but since this new server is fanless, low TDP, and the HDPlex is a linear ATX supply, apparently the balance tilts in favor of the dedicated line.

Summary

 

I may finally be done tweaking for some time. All I'm doing now is listening to and enjoying music. The only big changes pending in my system now are the SR-7 and SR-4s I have on order, which will arrive... who knows when! These will replace the sPS-500 and LPS-1.2s in the diagram.

 

I want to conclude by reinforcing some of Roy's remarks with mine.

 

 

 

After 2+ years in, and countless experiments, this is one of the constants. The importance of high quality DC power simply cannot be overstated. It trumps everything else.

 

 

No question in my mind. I hear the same thing.

 

 

This is why boxes like the Zenith SE and Statement command the high prices. It's all about the PSUs, baby! Here's the funny thing about the HDPlex 400W Linear ATX supply:

  • it improves the SQ of the server significantly over stock PSUs, but
  • individual rails of the HDPlex don't really match the quality of PSUs like the LPS-1.2 and the SR-4.

I am sure that a server powered by a cost-no-object ATX supply would be amazing, but I'm not sure if the SQ improvement would justify the added cost.

 

 

Now this could be a game-changer!

 

What about your TLS switch and LPSU? 

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15 minutes ago, austinpop said:

 

I just pull from my NAS.

 

Larry @lmitche has reported good results with an HDD in an external enclosure, powered by a separate LPS. Search back for his findings.

Yes, we use a startech USB 3.1 card and a Startech USB 3.1 hdd enclosure, separately powered.  The JCAT card is great too. 

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00XLAZEFC/ref=oh_aui_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

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27 minutes ago, rickca said:

Here's what it looks like on my screen.  Changing the zoom/font size didn't help.

 

R <----------> NAS in separate room (master closet) - music lives here, and is pulled by the Roon Cores below

O <--------->  Dell server (erstwhile Roon Core) in separate room (study) - soon to be decommissioned

U   

T   dCBL-Cat7                                         dCBL-Cat7                               dCBL-Cat7                                    Lush^2                            JSSG360'd Lush

E <-----------------> new server (bridged) <----------------> switch (SOtM) <----------------> NUC i7 (sCLKed) <-------------> tX-USBultra <---------------------------> DAC    

R                         - HDPlex 400W ATX                         - LPS-1.2-12                           - sPS-500-19                            - LPS-1.2-12

                           - SR4-12 for JCAT


Sent you a screenshot via PM.

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33 minutes ago, austinpop said:

You are now on the hook to report back here with your findings, y'hear? :) 

 

I want to know how these compare:

  • Statement vs. SE
  • Statement vs. SE+tX-U
  • Statement vs. Statement+tX-U.

I’ll be happy to, if the hourly distractions of the Brexit end-game don’t mess-up my plans.

 

Do bear in mind that my tX-U is the base unit, without any of the upgrade options most of you other guys have gone for.

Zenith SE > USPCB (5v off) > tX-USBultra 9V (SR4) > Sablon Reserva Elite USB > M Scaler > WAVE Stream bnc > DAVE > Prion4/Lazuli Reference > Utopia/LCD-4/HE1000se

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32 minutes ago, austinpop said:

I may finally be done tweaking for some time

 

Nice try but no deal matey!

 

You reopened the whole clocking story again with the NUC Endpoint modded by SoTM to accept the clock signal from the TX-USBULTRA (with the EVOX caps mod).

 

I'm awaiting further details and despite Roy's subsequent epic post have some questions.

 

Namely how much of an uplift to SQ does an Evox cap modded TX-USBUltra make without a master clock versus with a master clock? In other words is it worth sending the NUC and TX to Korea even for those that don't plan on having a Ref-10 or suchlike?

 

I'd also love if yourself and/or @romaz could comment or compare what adds the most of an improvement: The EVOX modded TX-USBUltra or the sNH-10? If you had to choose only one of these which would you go for?

 

I'm loving the simplicity of the two AL NUCs and whilst I'm intrigued by these latest findings I'm very reluctant to add a plethora of boxes and PSUs back into the mix. Especially given the amperage headroom findings and the prospect of needing to buy better supplies.

 

That said I have a TX I was planning on selling and have been considering the sNH-10G for a while (but am trying to hold off on to see how the EtherRegen compares).

 

Cheers,

Alan

 

PS great writeup Rajiv and fantastic to see you back Roy.

 

Synergistic Research Powercell UEF SE > Sonore OpticalModule (LPS-1.2 & DXP-1A5DSC) > EtherRegen (SR4T & DXP-1A5DSC) > (Sablon 2020 LAN) Innuos PhoenixNet > Muon Streaming System > Grimm Audio MU1 server > (Sablon AES) Mola Mola Tambaqui DAC > PS Audio M1200 monoblocks > Salk Sound Supercharged Songtowers

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1 minute ago, austinpop said:

I just pull from my NAS. 

Thank you. Is your NAS connected with a LPS? What is the underlying storage in your NAS? SSD or HDD?

 

48 minutes ago, Iving said:

I have exactly this problem ... and a good solution.

Music  Library is approaching a Tb / comprises ripped flac / carefully tagged exactly how I want it / backed up to >1 any drive.

I copy whole Library to a 1Tb SSD inside my player PC (single box).

In fb2k I copy over from this SSD only files tagged up as "favourites" per some fb2k Filter (preference HAS 3 AND demo IS 1 etc) using Convert/Copy - the copied files amount to about 220Gb - to a 280Gb PCIe Optane AIC which has the o/s on it too (see post above response to romaz).

Change fb2k Library to the Optane drive and disable SATA in BIOS.

Playing is all "CPU direct". 

Thank you. That's an option, but see my dilemma below.

 

After reading so much in this forum, I made a decision to go the Innuos way but do it yourself. Get a low power motherboard / CPU, the best multi-rail (at least 4 or 5) dual regulated power supply you can get, use an oversized custom excellent quality transformer and an oversized power supply. It would be one server solution. Something of quality comparable to the Zenith MkII SE or maybe even a tad better.

 

In the "Science Experiment: Audiolinux Extreme on Zenith SE" post, @austinpop liked Roon server running on the Zenith SE (as a one box solution) better than using a two-computer solution with Roon Core running on his Dell XPS 8700.

https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/30376-a-novel-way-to-massively-improve-the-sq-of-computer-audio-streaming/?do=findComment&comment=895805

 

That's the kind of quality and level of complexity I am looking for. There might be ways to achieve better quality. There would always be, and that would be a never ending game. That's why I wanted to define some boundaries I am not planning to cross and reduce the number of variables (which are still SO MANY).

 

So I would have a low powered CPU / motherboard, with excellent power supply, a decent USB, a decent onboard NIC, and a single PCI-e slot I can use for improvements. I would have another level of USB reclocking after the computer. It would either be an Amanero card in my DAC or something like an Audiobyte Hydra Z with LPS that converts the USB to SPDIF. That part is still TBD based on listening tests.

 

There are a few things I would like to do but it's not possible to do all of them.

1. Since the motherboard I am using does not support Optane memory, I can use the PCI-e slot and add a card for that. Run the OS from Optane and have some extra storage for music there. The storage won't be enough, but I can live with it.

2. I can use the PCI-e slot to add a JCAT net card femto that would use one rail of the LPS. In that case I would probably benefit from pulling files from a NAS.

3. I can put one of the good USB cards designed for hi-end audio (again powered by an extra rail of my LPS). In that case external HDD USB storage might be a way to go. Connect the DAC to the good USB card. Connect the storage to the onboard USB.

I would like to do all 3, but I can't with the motherboard I have.

 

I would always need this computer connected to the network for the controlling app at least. So I know that the JCAT net card would be a very good option. Maybe I do that and hope that Innuos releases their USB reclocker that they use in the Statement and make it available to everyone. Then add that as a future upgrade. Or consider a tX-USBultra or something similar.

 

Now, unfortunately I don't have the time people here dedicate to test. I am happy to report everything I try and bring value to the forum if I discover something new during my test. I also understand that unless I test all scenarios I would never know for sure what works best. But I am sure there are people here who have done enough testing to be able to take a pretty good educated guess at the sonic improvements each one of these upgrades would make.

 

If it's not exactly clear what I am asking, take for example an Innuos Zenith SE. First, it uses a SSD drive (not good according to a lot of people here). Second, it uses the motherboard USB ports (not ideal). Third, it uses the onboard NICs (also not ideal). How can a DIY person improve a Zenith SE? We can see what they have done in the Statement. They have improved the USB and the NIC but left the SSD drive. If i was to improve just one of these, what should that be? I am leaning towards the NIC now and find a way to address the USB later as a future upgrade.

 

What do people here think? And sorry if I am off topic. I would be happy to move my post somewhere else or even delete if inappropriate.

 

Thank you in advance!

 

Industry disclosure:
https://chicagohifi.com

Dealer for: Taiko Audio, Conrad Johnson, Audio Mirror, and Sean Jacobs

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54 minutes ago, ted_b said:

Yes, we use a startech USB 3.1 card and a Startech USB 3.1 hdd enclosure, separately powered.  The JCAT card is great too. 

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00XLAZEFC/ref=oh_aui_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

Ordered one to try. Does the quality of the DC power matter on this thing? I wonder if I would hear difference between a cheap chinese LPS and my LPS1.2. I would try and report back if people have not tried yet. Thank you!

Industry disclosure:
https://chicagohifi.com

Dealer for: Taiko Audio, Conrad Johnson, Audio Mirror, and Sean Jacobs

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8 minutes ago, Nenon said:

 

Ordered one to try. Does the quality of the DC power matter on this thing? I wonder if I would hear difference between a cheap chinese LPS and my LPS1.2. I would try and report back if people have not tried yet. Thank you!

In my case, power supply quality does make a difference, but I only compare stock wall wart with what I currently have on hand, which I end up with JS-2 on the enclosure, and LPS-1.2 on the PCIe card.

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48 minutes ago, BigAlMc said:

Nice try but no deal matey!

 

Busted. Whatever gave me away? :) 

 

48 minutes ago, BigAlMc said:

Namely how much of an uplift to SQ does an Evox cap modded TX-USBUltra make without a master clock versus with a master clock? In other words is it worth sending the NUC and TX to Korea even for those that don't plan on having a Ref-10 or suchlike?

 

I didn't get a chance to post this, but a while back @limniscate and I did compare my upgraded tX-U (Evox caps, solid core silver DC cable) with his stock tX-U. The one wrinkle in this experiment was that I forgot to bring a 50Ω clock cable, so my unit was running with a 75Ω cable from the Ref-10. To my ears, the upgraded unit sounded more natural, more coherent, but I think Eric had more mixed feelings. We agreed to redo this experiment in my setup at some point. When we do, I can add the experiment to try it without the Ref-10.

 

I have now done a head-to-head twice of an Evox vs. stock unit - the first time was with the sCLK-OCX10 when @auricgoldfinger visited. For the $250-300 cost, this is a big bang for the buck upgrade. The big issue, at least for me it was, is the cost of round trip shipping to Korea can be > $100 for the US. So I waited to do this upgrade in conjunction with something else - in my case, the NUC mods.

 

48 minutes ago, BigAlMc said:

I'd also love if yourself and/or @romaz could comment or compare what adds the most of an improvement: The EVOX modded TX-USBUltra or the sNH-10? If you had to choose only one of these which would you go for?

 

I don't see these as an either/or. See above for my thoughts on the Evox upgrade. It's a no-brainer for tX-U owners. As for the switch, I'm still waiting to assess it fully. While it works fine with the LPS-1.2, the gap with the TLS switch is modest with this PSU. What I need to confirm are Roy's findings that the gap widens considerably with an SR-4, and even more with the SR-7, next time I can borrow one.

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1 hour ago, rickca said:

@austinpop any chance you can produce a better schematic?  I can't make any sense of the one in your above post.  The rest of the content is great.

 

Many thanks to Kevin @elan120 for whipping up a Visio of my crude sketch during a boring conference call at work!

 

Server-topology.png

 

43 minutes ago, Nenon said:

Thank you. Is your NAS connected with a LPS? What is the underlying storage in your NAS? SSD or HDD?

 

Please see the position of the NAS in my topology above. It is a stock Synology 4-bay with HDDs and stock SMPS. I have a pending test to compare a track pulled from the NAS to the same placed in RAM (somewhere in the root partition) to the same read from the Optane SSD. My hope is that with my new topology, the SQ from the NAS is as good as the other 2. I'll update once I know.

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6 minutes ago, austinpop said:

Please see the position of the NAS in my topology above. It is a stock Synology 4-bay with HDDs and stock SMPS. I have a pending test to compare a track pulled from the NAS to the same placed in RAM (somewhere in the root partition) to the same read from the Optane SSD. My hope is that with my new topology, the SQ from the NAS is as good as the other 2. I'll update once I know. 

 

That would be very interesting. The content in a file is the same no matter where it is stored. I am guessing the audible differences we hear are due to some noise generated while pulling the file from its storage media. Does anyone have a better explanation? My guess is if can get to the bottom of that we might be able to create a buffer/reclocker/regenerator/whatever-you-want-to-call-it for files. If we can get those files to the RAM from any storage media without that noise, and play them from the RAM, I am guessing the storage would not matter that much.

Industry disclosure:
https://chicagohifi.com

Dealer for: Taiko Audio, Conrad Johnson, Audio Mirror, and Sean Jacobs

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