A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming

[limniscate]

@austinpop and I tested his NUC versus my ZENith SE.  In blind testing, he picked the ZENith.  However, the NUC was not on the Synergistic Research Tranquility UEF base.

[the_doc735]

9 hours ago, austinpop said:

 

Hi Adveira,

 

I sympathize with the difficulty in keeping up with this thread. It has gotten pretty wild in the last few months! 

 

BTW - I am not picking on you - I quoted your post to represent a sentiment I get a lot via PM which goes along the lines of - "So what are the conclusions?" Again, I completely understand the sentiment, but it's a question we can't answer. 

 

This thread is a journey with no foreseeable "conclusion!" Yes, I know Roy, Larry, and I talk in moments of excitement of how this is endgame stuff, but this thread is, and will always be, an exploration for more SQ, and most of time with mechanisms that don't have clear objective explanations. That's OK.

 

Take my setup, for example. When Roy started this thread on Jan 1, 2017 - yes, almost 2 years ago - I was using an Aries Mini with Auralic LPS as my endpoint, with MinimServer on my NAS. I thought this was about as endgame as it got. Then I tried:

• FMCs
• bridging
• a plethora of PSUs
• sMS-200
• sCLK-EX with the famous trifecta of switch-sMS-tX
• Reference clock - first Cybershaft, then Mutec Ref-10
• then I moved from distributed to standalone (Zenith SE)
• more stuff
• then I tried AL/RAM on my SE
• Now I am back to distributed with NUC/AL as endpoint.

Is this the conclusion? For me and many of us here - you know it isn't! I have zero doubt we will learn more, and we will continue to improve the SQ of our systems. Ultimately this thread stays popular because a critical mass of people try these findings for themselves and report their findings. As Larry pointed out, not everyone hears the same effect, or even a positive change. That's OK too. We all start from a different baseline, and we all hear things differently. 

 

The only "conclusion" is to ask what people are using currently, and I'll post a diagram soon, but my system is till in flux. 

To parallel this: some times there are many small incremental changes that occur fast! Other times there is one giant leap that is often discovered by accident that no one thought of or considered and was usually dismissed without a second thought! IMO the NUC/AL 'discovery' IS one of those 'Lotus 72' moments, i.e. it was so good they didn't bring out a totally new design for FOUR years; the Lotus 77. But after this things still carried on progressing to the present day, like you say: no conclusion just progression. I suspect 'idiots' will mark this off topic even though all I am doing is replying to @austinpop 's post. I am completely at home with this, if that is your intention? Thanks to austinpop for bringing a little clarity to this thread and just maybe my little comment will serve to drive the point home for those that haven't been able to grasp the fundamental meaning of austinpop's post.

[the_doc735]

9 hours ago, LTG2010 said:

Go fanless in any type of server / endpoint. The fan introduces electrical noise, emi, vibration and it just blows hot air around onto other components. Plus the processor is monitoring temperature and adjusting its speed etc.

At the moment I have a noctura fan on my 218+ and it doesn't blow hot air on other components because it sucks the hot air out of the casing. This is fitted with the SOtM fan filter. Currently have 3 on going projects. This is just one of them.

[asdf1000]

3 hours ago, kyrill said:

because of Audiolinux I was worried about the pops remark

 

I've mentioned I think 5 times already but will do one last time because I can see it getting blown way out of proportion.

 

My pops comment is not relating to pops during music playback at all and nothing to do with the classic loud pops of PCM/DSD transitions. I fortunately haven't had these pops for over 2 years now (touch wood it stays that way...).

 

My pops are specific to NAA and starting a new track and it's two small pops - very quiet. I imagine most people wouldn't hear them, especially on speakers, they are that quiet. Even with headphones, if my HQP volume is at -3dB and I'm using a separate headphone amp it is hard to hear. It becomes more obvious when using HQP's digital volume control for me. It's not just specific to Audiolinux for me - as I already mentioned above a few times. It happens with my Rendu and DietPi running on NAA on NUC and UpBoard Gateway and other hardware. And other distro's on different hardware too. DietPi NAA on an Allo USBridge is another example.

The pops are there with my Rendu but it's not enough to annoy me much at all - just to give an idea of how annoying this thing is to me, in the big picture.

 

There is an Audiolinux love fest here so I want to make clear my own very minor issues observed are not at all specific to Audiolinux and not specific to the NUC even.

 

For me, Jussi's bootable NAA image is free from all pops completely and SQ is no different to Audiolinux in RAM and is free and is without these annoying vert minor pops.

 

I hope that squashes pop gate.

 

[the_doc735]

8 hours ago, austinpop said:

 

Search is your friend. Please search back on this thread, we have posted this multiple times.

 

Yes, the consensus is the NUC (or endpoint) running AL in RAM provides the bulk of the improvement. Whether it is 60% or 80% or some other number is based on subjective opinions.

 

The server still seems to matter. Running AL in RAM on the server matters. System speed seems to matter. But bigger systems with their noise add harshness too. Yes, even through the switches. Where is the sweet spot? What are the best CPU options? Is TDP a guiding metric? Where should music be stored? Pros/cons?

 

These all need research. So get to work!

Also somewhere in this thread someone said that there is no consensus, I find that contradictory. 

[the_doc735]

6 hours ago, mourip said:

 

I run AL in ramroot on my endpoints but Windows 10 Pro on my Roon server for now. I found that when I installed Audiophile Optimizer it made a big difference in overall sound quality which lends support to the general consnsus that the server OS and tweaks still do matter.

why not just buy something that doesn't have unnecessary processes, that you will  'kill' anyway with audiophile optimizer?

[the_doc735]

5 hours ago, austinpop said:

 

I'm not asking you to leave. Just saying that you have a commercial affiliation and are a product developer. When you talk critically of competing products, then you necessarily have a credibility gap to cross, and a higher threshold to meet to not appear biased.

 

Instead of general comments or friends' experiences, more useful would be your own personal experience with a concrete example. I.e. on this HW platform, I first ran X then Y, and to my ears I liked X. Here's why.

I'm sorry, but I was told on here that there are no concrete answers, just developments, discoveries and experiments. i.e. no conclusions, no consensus. With respect, it looks like posts are contradicting each other! Just trying to clarify this issue please?

[mourip]

1 hour ago, the_doc735 said:

@LTG2010 

quote barrows: "In terms of technical facts, the Rendu's load their operating system into RAM at boot up, and they play files from RAM, all playback operations are run from RAM, not from the SD card.  Additionally, the idea that having an SD card present adds noise is just technically incorrect, it is just not a fact.  The fact is that any of these NUC commercial computers have many times the noise present on their boards as any Rendu, whether they have a drive (USB stick or SD card, whatever) present or not. The Rendu's are designed to have the absolute lowest noise profile possible, which can be easily shown through measurements.  They are many times better than any commercial computer device adopted for audio use.  NUC users are not "discovering" anything, all of their findings, are things we at Sonore have known  for a long time, indeed they have yet to "discover" many other optimizations we already know.  We already have a very highly developed, low latency operating system (sonicorbiter), running from RAM, which has been optimized over many years of development.".

I don't believe he would debate this statement and it is not open to any sort of discussion. He is just simply stating his own personal opinion about SQ in the NUC.

 

I am sure that he believes this but as a developer //member of the trade he would have everything to loose by entering a thread like this one and making that statement about his own products...true or not. I find it a very slippery slope when developers post here. Some, like our good friends from Uptone Audio, play that line very carefully and gracefully, contributing a great deal as fellow enthusiasts. Others have trouble identifying the line and end up turning folks off... or worse post unsubstantiated biased opinions without identifying their affiliation.

 

Personally I am much more likely to accept the opinion of someone who has no financial interest in making their case and very suspect of someone who does. I believe that this was @austinpop's point above.

 

 

 

 

 

[greenleo]

Anybody has the computability RAM list for NUC7I7DNBE?  Thank you for your help.

 

I have recommended my friend to try this.  But can't find the list.

[the_doc735]

5 hours ago, Em2016 said:

 

Assuming everything stays in DSD, it's likely the quieter couple of pops between tracks has always been there with Audiolinux but maybe you never noticed it... as mentioned a few times, it's nowhere near as loud as the classic PCM to DSD transition pops. Easier for me to hear with headphones but they are there with speakers too with Audiolinux.

 

When you do your testing you may find these quieter pops with Audiolinux (and everything else) disappear with Jussi's bootable image - that's what I found.

 

I'm also at DSD512 for everything - it's possible it's less of an issue at lower sample rates with Audiolinux (and others) but I haven't bothered testing because with Jussi's bootable image it's 100% pop free at DSD512 between tracks (for me).

In terms of sound quality with my subjective impressions (on topic), I find that all DSD512 makes my tinnitus worse. So for now I have to stick with PCM. Needed - tinnitus friendly DSD (LOL).

[mourip]

30 minutes ago, the_doc735 said:

why not just buy something that doesn't have unnecessary processes, that you will  'kill' anyway with audiophile optimizer?

 

I am already running AL in ramboot on both of my endpoints. I set up Roon Core on Windows 10 because I already had the license, hardware and OA and I needed something I was familiar with while I tried to work out an issue I had with both of my AL endpoints not showing up at the same time. Now that is sorted out I will probably try AL on my Roon Core server also but currently the system sounds really great. Besides in this way I have a basis for comparison in my own system and with my own ears. 

 

Your logic is sound but sometimes experimenting is worth a bit to prove these things to ones own self. Besides there are a lot of pieces to this puzzle and sometime synergy is as important as theory.

[asdf1000]

4 minutes ago, the_doc735 said:

In terms of sound quality with my subjective impressions (on topic), I find that all DSD512 makes my tinnitus worse. So for now I have to stick with PCM. Needed - tinnitus friendly DSD (LOL).

 

LOL sorry to read that doc. Surprised that this variable (DSD512 vs PCM768) with the same HQP filter (?) is enough to affect your tinnitus. We can ask Jussi in a HQP thread, to ask why that may be.

 

[the_doc735]

55 minutes ago, mourip said:

 

I am sure that he believes this but as a developer //member of the trade he would have everything to loose by entering a thread like this one and making that statement about his own products...true or not. I find it a very slippery slope when developers post here. Some, like our good friends from Uptone Audio, play that line very carefully and gracefully, contributing a great deal as fellow enthusiasts. Others have trouble identifying the line and end up turning folks off... or worse post unsubstantiated biased opinions without identifying their affiliation.

 

I am much more likely to accept the opinion of someone who has no financial interest in making their case. Was this quote from another thread on CA?

I don't have permission to divulge the source, very sorry!

But he does say: The Rendu's are designed to have the absolute lowest noise profile possible, which can be easily shown through measurements.  

Just because he has a vested interest, does that make him a liar? There are audio business people on CA don't forget.

Maybe someone with the gear will do the measurements/tests against the NUC/AL combo and present their findings to us all?

[the_doc735]

41 minutes ago, Em2016 said:

 

LOL sorry to read that doc. Surprised that this variable (DSD512 vs PCM768) with the same HQP filter (?) is enough to affect your tinnitus. We can ask Jussi in a HQP thread, to ask why that may be.

Even doctors don't know and there is no cure at the moment. Makes playing the latest ozric tentacles album impossible! Even after one track it's like I'd been in the front row of a heavy metal gig and leaves heightened ringing in my ears for hours! (LOL). I digress - sorry!   ...back to topic....

[greenleo]

52 minutes ago, greenleo said:

Anybody has the computability RAM list for NUC7I7DNBE?  Thank you for your help.

 

I have recommended my friend to try this.  But can't find the list.

I got it.  No need to help now.

[shyamwanne]

1 hour ago, Em2016 said:

 

LOL sorry to read that doc. Surprised that this variable (DSD512 vs PCM768) with the same HQP filter (?) is enough to affect your tinnitus. We can ask Jussi in a HQP thread, to ask why that may be.

 

I just realized I have a similar tinnitus problem.  My high quality home headphone setup has started aggravating my tinnitus,  If I listen with the same HD800s headphones on my portable setup....no tinnitus.  I've been curious why, so I can rectify it....like if ultrasonic frequencies are being passed through, or ?????    I know its off topic, so don't want to take up people's time here, but if you, EM2016 or doc735, have a link to more information in another thread please post or PM me:)   Thanks guys!

[mikicasellas]

Hi Guys,

 

Is this the same Pentium board or if not, can it be used instead of the one that comes with the NUC7PJYH:

 ASRock J5005-ITX Intel Quad-Core Pentium Silver Processor (Up to 2.8 GHz) Motherboards

https://www.amazon.com/ASRock-J5005-ITX-Quad-Core-Processor-Motherboards/dp/B079G91MQ1

[Forehaven]

7 hours ago, Em2016 said:

 

Assuming everything stays in DSD, it's likely the quieter couple of pops between tracks has always been there with Audiolinux but maybe you never noticed it... as mentioned a few times, it's nowhere near as loud as the classic PCM to DSD transition pops. Easier for me to hear with headphones but they are there with speakers too with Audiolinux.

 

When you do your testing you may find these quieter pops with Audiolinux (and everything else) disappear with Jussi's bootable image - that's what I found.

 

I'm also at DSD512 for everything - it's possible it's less of an issue at lower sample rates with Audiolinux (and others) but I haven't bothered testing because with Jussi's bootable image it's 100% pop free at DSD512 between tracks (for me).

 

 

I still have a pop when going from DSD to PCM in AL.  I play everything native.

[asdf1000]

4 minutes ago, Forehaven said:

I still have a pop when going from DSD to PCM in AL.  I play everything native.

 

Noted - but this is something very different to what I'm describing.

 

See here:

https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/30376-a-novel-way-to-massively-improve-the-sq-of-computer-audio-streaming/?do=findComment&comment=903916

 

[jean-michel6]

3 hours ago, limniscate said:

@austinpop and I tested his NUC versus my ZENith SE.  In blind testing, he picked the ZENith.  However, the NUC was not on the Synergistic Research Tranquility UEF base.

Does it was in dual pc set-up ?

If yes , does it was with AL in ram ? How was powered the NUC ?

what was the server ?

[limniscate]

9 minutes ago, jean-michel6 said:

Does it was in dual pc set-up ?

If yes , does it was with AL in ram ? How was powered the NUC ?

what was the server ?

 

Server was the ZENith SE.  NUC was powered by the SR7MR2DRXL.

[sam1000]

40 minutes ago, limniscate said:

 

Server was the ZENith SE.  NUC was powered by the SR7MR2DRXL.

 

I'm very inclined to build NUC based solution because the cost of admission is relatively cheap, but at the same time, I'm also think that I'm susceptible to the tricks that my mind plays on me. Yesterday I read the following post and it made me think about biases quite a bit .

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/uptone-lps-1-linear-power-supply-review-and-measurements.1849/page-9#post-60699

I can identify with the above post because I also bought a TA cable which costs a fortune and I think I should be able to discern it without any problem. (I have not subjected myself with DBX).

 

Please understand that I've utmost respect for contributors on this thread. In fact I like the DIY solution which is tenfolds cheaper than the megabucks steamers. I just don't get it when we can't pick our favorites in a blind test ? DO you think DBX test put too much pressure on us. Do you know what characteristics Rajiv liked when he picked ZENith over NUC in a blind test? did you do this multiple times or was this a single test.

[jean-michel6]

1 hour ago, limniscate said:

 

Server was the ZENith SE.  NUC was powered by the SR7MR2DRXL.

Thank for your answer . Yet I do not fully understand what was the preferred configuration in this blind test :

Zenith SE alone ( server and endpoint )

compared to ZenithSE ( server ) - NUC endpoint   ?

[greenleo]

For the CAer's who are using the NUC7i7DNBE, would you mind telling me the RAM that you're using?  I got the compatabile RAM list from Rajiv's post for the NUC7i7DNKE but the RAMs on the list are all unobtainium.

 

Any help will be very much appreciated. 

[yellowblue]

5 hours ago, limniscate said:

@austinpop and I tested his NUC versus my ZENith SE.  In blind testing, he picked the ZENith.  However, the NUC was not on the Synergistic Research Tranquility UEF base.

Can you please give more details! jean-michel6 already asked some important questions. When did you make the test? Was it with the new 1.41 firmware of the Zenith?