A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming

[austinpop]

1 minute ago, Windows X said:

 

I did optimizations on both Windows and Linux platform. Fidelizer for Windows and Purist ROM for Linux on DAP. I considered Purist OS but didn't make it because I prefer Windows myself.

 

If you think I came to this thread to make general negative statements to compete against AudioLinux, I'll quietly leave this thread to preserve the atmosphere of your moderation.

 

I came to share my findings about AudioLinux with my friends and some asked me to elaborate it. I didn't meant to disturb the peace and harmoney of AudioLinux platform at all. That's not my intention and have a nice day.

 

I'm not asking you to leave. Just saying that you have a commercial affiliation and are a product developer. When you talk critically of competing products, then you necessarily have a credibility gap to cross, and a higher threshold to meet to not appear biased.

 

Instead of general comments or friends' experiences, more useful would be your own personal experience with a concrete example. I.e. on this HW platform, I first ran X then Y, and to my ears I liked X. Here's why.

[LTG2010]

8 minutes ago, Windows X said:

I came to share my findings about AudioLinux with my friends and some who has that issue asked me to elaborate it. I didn't meant to disturb the peace and harmoney of AudioLinux platform at all. That's not my intention and have a nice day.

But you have only stated that windows is better, linux has glare and have not elaborated or answered any of the questions put to you, just posted 'your friends' findings.

[Windows X]

2 minutes ago, austinpop said:

 

I'm not asking you to leave. Just saying that you have a commercial affiliation and are a product developer. When you talk critically of competing products, then you necessarily have a credibility gap to cross, and a higher threshold to meet to not appear biased.

 

Instead of general comments or friends' experiences, more useful would be your own personal experience with a concrete example. I.e. on this HW platform, I first ran X then Y, and to my ears I liked X. Here's why.

 

I believe that I stated the case if you have digital glare issue. It's not criticizing. If your server runs fine in your system and you didn't notice any glare, there's no need to heed my advice. But if you do, you can try. That's all. Windows also have digital glare, every OS has it to a degree.

 

If someone want to inquire more about this matter with me, feel free to ask privately. I won't post in here to make the situation worse on this thread anymore.

[gsquared]

@Dev if I recall, you have the NUC8i7BEH, which is the model I have. 

 

I am running mine as a Roon server headless with AL + the Roon db in ram. I have a monitor hooked up while I get it fully configured, but I'm finding that it almost always throttles (cup clock throttled) - and it's just sitting idle. I have it running in Standard mode as well. Does yours typically throttle? I wonder if it's because I have my Roon db loaded into RAM.

 

@lmitche @austinpop any ideas how to solve this issue? I'm thinking about getting Optane memory to store the Roon files on to see if that solves the problem.

 

 

[austinpop]

2 minutes ago, gsquared said:

@Dev if I recall, you have the NUC8i7BEH, which is the model I have. 

 

I am running mine as a Roon server headless with AL + the Roon db in ram. I have a monitor hooked up while I get it fully configured, but I'm finding that it almost always throttles (cup clock throttled) - and it's just sitting idle. I have it running in Standard mode as well. Does yours typically throttle? I wonder if it's because I have my Roon db loaded into RAM as well.

 

@lmitche @austinpop any ideas how to solve this issue? I'm thinking about getting Optane memory to store the Roon files on to see if that solves the problem.

 

 

 

Perfect candidate for the other thread! I'll copy paste and put a response there.

[asdf1000]

41 minutes ago, Johnseye said:

 

Yes, I tried both.  If there is any difference it's so minimal that bias comes into question.  I'd say both are equally as good for an HQPlayer NAA.  If you need a Roon Bridge or other as NAA, obviously Jussi's OS won't work.

 

 

 

This is very interesting because up until last weekend I had not experienced any pops, except when I swap between DSD and PCM.  Now for whatever reason I'm hearing a pop between every track.  Because this wasn't happening before, I question whether it's a software setting or other change I made.  I will put the HQPlayer NAA back on the NUC and see what happens.  I was also using an iso Regen over the weekend.

 

With my Audio Alchemy DAC I used to get these pops all the time, and some very loud.  It actually blew my B&W tweeters.  It was one of the reasons I bought a new DAC.  When I got the Holo Spring they stopped, until now.  They are very small and quiet pops now however.

 

This is what Peter Madnick described as the cause of the pop.  This is different than what we're talking about, but I question why it's happening, how it's impacted by the hardware and if any mute relay is involved.

 

"When you power a product on and off (ours or anyone else’s) the power supplies must charge up, or discharge, as the case may be.  The raw power supply voltages run through regulators to stabilize them at some known number (+ and – 18 Volts, in our case).  Total capacitance and current draw varies amongst the circuits and cannot be guaranteed to stay at the exact same voltage during the charge and discharge cycles.  An imbalance between the + and – can cause noise.  Again, all products are subject to this phenomenon.  The volume control is essentially the “valve” which controls a preamp’s output level.  If it is all the way up then any instantaneous noise which could come out before the MUTE relay closes can be heard as a POP. "

 

 

Cheers John. I can eliminate the hardware as a variable because the same hardware running Jussi’s image is dead silent. I get the same differences with other hardware too.

 

And in my post I emphasised this is a quiet couple of pops between tracks, as opposed to the classic PCM to DSD transition loud pops, which was fortunately solved a long while back now. 

 

You can try every other Linux distro running NAA including Audiolinux and they will be there between tracks. Easier to hear on headphones than speakers, as I mentioned.

 

Except Jussi’s bootable image is flawless in this regard (and free..) so it’s an easy decision for me.

 

Thanks for sharing the SQ observations, that Audiolinux ramroot is no different - I noted the same.

 

[Johnseye]

6 minutes ago, Em2016 said:

 

Cheers John. I can eliminate the hardware as a variable because the same hardware running Jussi’s image is dead silent. I get the same differences with other hardware too.

 

And in my post I emphasised this is a quiet couple of pops between tracks, as opposed to the classic PCM to DSD transition loud pops, which was fortunately solved a long while back now. 

 

You can try every other Linux distro running NAA including Audiolinux and they will be there between tracks. Easier to hear on headphones than speakers, as I mentioned.

 

Except Jussi’s bootable image is flawless in this regard (and free..) so it’s an easy decision for me.

 

Thanks for sharing the SQ observations, that Audiolinux ramroot is no different - I noted the same.

 

 

How have you solved the PCM to DSD transition pops?

[asdf1000]

4 minutes ago, Johnseye said:

 

How have you solved the PCM to DSD transition pops?

 

Hi John

 

With Roon and HQPlayer and the hardware I’ve had, I just haven’t had that issue in over 2 years.

 

It’s not something I personally solved myself of course - it seems to have been solved by all software and gear I’ve had and the problem went away for me (fortunately).

 

So you’ve had the transitions pops all this time and you now also hear the quieter couple of pops between tracks too, even if staying at DSD constantly (no PCM transition)?

 

 

[Johnseye]

1 minute ago, Em2016 said:

 

Hi John

 

With Roon and HQPlayer and the hardware I’ve had, I just haven’t had that issue in over 2 years.

 

It’s not something I personally solved myself of course - it seems to have been solved by all software and gear I’ve had and the problem went away for me (fortunately).

 

So you’ve had the transitions pops all this time and you now also hear the quieter couple of pops between tracks too, even if staying at DSD constantly (no PCM transition)?

 

 

 

All are relatively quiet, nothing loud, but yes IIRC.  I need to futz with some things this weekend to sort stuff out.  Will have definitive answers then.

[asdf1000]

21 minutes ago, Johnseye said:

 

All are relatively quiet, nothing loud, but yes IIRC.  I need to futz with some things this weekend to sort stuff out.  Will have definitive answers then.

 

Assuming everything stays in DSD, it's likely the quieter couple of pops between tracks has always been there with Audiolinux but maybe you never noticed it... as mentioned a few times, it's nowhere near as loud as the classic PCM to DSD transition pops. Easier for me to hear with headphones but they are there with speakers too with Audiolinux.

 

When you do your testing you may find these quieter pops with Audiolinux (and everything else) disappear with Jussi's bootable image - that's what I found.

 

I'm also at DSD512 for everything - it's possible it's less of an issue at lower sample rates with Audiolinux (and others) but I haven't bothered testing because with Jussi's bootable image it's 100% pop free at DSD512 between tracks (for me).

 

 

[rickca]

Deleted

[elan120]

18 minutes ago, Em2016 said:

 

Assuming everything stays in DSD, it's likely the quieter couple of pops between tracks has always been there with Audiolinux but maybe you never noticed it... as mentioned a few times, it's nowhere near as loud as the classic PCM to DSD transition pops. Easier for me to hear with headphones but they are there with speakers too with Audiolinux.

 

When you do your testing you may find these quieter pops with Audiolinux (and everything else) disappear with Jussi's bootable image - that's what I found.

 

I'm also at DSD512 for everything - it's possible it's less of an issue at lower sample rates with Audiolinux (and others) but I haven't bothered testing because with Jussi's bootable image it's 100% pop free at DSD512 (for me).

 

 

This is interesting, as I have not experienced any pops with either NAA images, and this is running DSD512 (non-2S), dead quiet between tracks with headphones.  Wonder what the difference is.

[asdf1000]

1 minute ago, elan120 said:

This is interesting, as I have not experienced any pops with either NAA images, and this is running DSD512 (non-2S), dead quiet between tracks with headphones.  Wonder what the difference is.

 

When you say either NAA images, do you mean Jussi's bootable?  And also with Audiolinux?

 

I've heard it with NUC running Audiolinux NAA, Sonore Rendu running NAA, Jussi's recommended UpBoard Gateway running DietPi and Auduilinux in RAM etc etc. Lots of different hardware running NAA have the same small pops between tracks for me - with different DACs too.

 

I have to re-emphasise these are quiet pops between tracks - nowhere near as loud and as the old classic and sometimes scary PCM-to-DSD transition. I live with these small pops between tracks fine with my Rendu because it's not a big deal and the Rendu wins out on overall SQ for me.

 

But with Jussi's bootable image running on NUC, UpBoard Gateway etc - flawless.

 

That's why I made a request for @Miska to one create a bootable image for the Rendu's - it's a lot of work though I guess.

 

[greenleo]

8 hours ago, kyrill said:

" But Jussi's image wins on performance for me - when playing new tracks there are pops just at the beginning of tracks with Audiolinux (and nearly every Linux distro I've had running NAA before). "bold added

 

This rather alarming for me. Do more audiolinux users have these pops or clicks with teh beginning of a new track?

No.  Never.

[elan120]

2 minutes ago, Em2016 said:

 

When you say either NAA images, do you mean Jussi's bootable?  And also with Audiolinux?

 

Yes, this is correct.  I ran Jussi's ramroot image first, was happy with the result, and changed to AL HQP NAA later.  Either case, no pops in my setup upsample all music files to DSD512 with non-2s filters with headphones.  The only pops I got is switching between PCM and DSD, but this is not the image issue anyway. 

[greenleo]

6 hours ago, lmitche said:

I made a ridiculous post recently talking about the cost of the AC treatments, cables and DC supplies used for my NUC endpoint.

Any link to the post?  Thank you?

[asdf1000]

4 minutes ago, elan120 said:

Yes, this is correct.  I ran Jussi's ramroot image first, was happy with the result, and changed to AL HQP NAA later.  Either case, no pops in my setup upsample all music files to DSD512 with non-2s filters with headphones.  The only pops I got is switching between PCM and DSD, but this is not the image issue anyway. 

 

Noted and thanks. Do you hear any SQ difference between Jussi's free ramroot image and AL ramroot HQP NAA?

 

Or no difference of significance?

 

[elan120]

1 minute ago, Em2016 said:

 

Noted and thanks. Do you hear any SQ difference between Jussi's ramroot image and AL ramroot HQP NAA?

 

 

I didn't detect any when I first ran them about couple weeks ago, but since I have few setup changes after switched to AL to improve the playback, I will take some time to test the two again to make sure.

[greenleo]

6 hours ago, Advieira said:

...

(make server unimportant).

 

I mean, if we can isolate the server, its one thing less to worry about.

I use the AL lxqt since V2.2 and headless since V5.0.  As a matter of fact, if the only concern is to enjoy music, there isn't much need in visiting the other AL tunning thread in the sense that a stock NUC7CJYH gives a pretty good SQ.  Larry reported that putting the mobo in a fanless chassis improves the SQ.  Giving a better PSU improves the SQ, this I can confirm as well.  Again no need to visit the AL tweaking thread.

 

Commercial version does exist but could be very expensive or relatively pretty expensive.

[rickca]

2 minutes ago, greenleo said:

Again no need to visit the AL tweaking thread.

I agree with the spirit of your post.  I created the tweaking thread so that discussion of very technical tuning tips doesn't overwhelm the ideas and listening impressions in this thread.

[greenleo]

1 minute ago, rickca said:

I agree with the spirit of your post.  I created the tweaking thread so that discussion of very technical tuning tips doesn't overwhelm the ideas and listening impressions in this thread.

Agree Ricka and thanks for creating the thread.

[greenleo]

32 minutes ago, greenleo said:

Any link to the post?  Thank you?

@lmitche

I mean Thank you.  The "?" was a typo but I can't edit the post again.

[kyrill]

Hi Larry

I cant help you.

I don't do upsampling.

I don't do NAS

 

My endpoint is a modest modded UltraRendu. My NUC is the server.   7th generation I5

I want to keep it  as simple and pure as possible. My DAC is a DEQX  HDP 4 192 khz

at the moment W2016*  GUI + AO 2.2 on a 32 Gig Supermicro SATA DOM (own Hynes 5v psu ) (is not an SSD),     bridged Ethernet ports  with JCAT FEMTO netcard and state of the art DC power for each component + DC silver quad Litz wire with extra shields

* because of this forum I will try Audiolinux + bridged NICS + Tidal+ own files on a separated powered USB stick

because of Audiolinux I was worried about the pops remark

Forgot to mention  tX-USBultra,  and Uptone isoregen between UltraRendu and DAC (DEQX)

[greenleo]

2 hours ago, mourip said:

 

I run AL in ramroot on my endpoints but Windows 10 Pro on my Roon server for now. I found that when I installed Audiophile Optimizer it made a big difference in overall sound quality which lends support to the general consnsus that the server OS and tweaks still do matter.

I tried AL lxqt and Win10 both running HQP on the same physical machine to the same headless NAA endpoint.  lxqt won SQ wise and I concur OS does matter.

[the_doc735]

9 hours ago, LTG2010 said:

Yes as a previous owner of an Ultra, but why? I'm not sure but there are some differences between the 2.

First,, the NUC in general has more processing power.

Second the NUC processors mentioned have a much larger processor cache.

Third, you can use audiolinux booted into RAM on the NUC, rather than an OS on a micro sd card. I dont think there is enough memory on the rendu/ultra to boot audiolinux in RAM, that would level the playing field for testing.

@LTG2010 

quote barrows: "In terms of technical facts, the Rendu's load their operating system into RAM at boot up, and they play files from RAM, all playback operations are run from RAM, not from the SD card.  Additionally, the idea that having an SD card present adds noise is just technically incorrect, it is just not a fact.  The fact is that any of these NUC commercial computers have many times the noise present on their boards as any Rendu, whether they have a drive (USB stick or SD card, whatever) present or not. The Rendu's are designed to have the absolute lowest noise profile possible, which can be easily shown through measurements.  They are many times better than any commercial computer device adopted for audio use.  NUC users are not "discovering" anything, all of their findings, are things we at Sonore have known  for a long time, indeed they have yet to "discover" many other optimizations we already know.  We already have a very highly developed, low latency operating system (sonicorbiter), running from RAM, which has been optimized over many years of development.".

I don't believe he would debate this statement and it is not open to any sort of discussion. He is just simply stating his own personal opinion about SQ in the NUC.