A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming

[Dutch]

37 minutes ago, afrancois said:

 

So you have a replacement unit. I’ve sent mine back and since then, radio silence. They don’t even bother to reply to my emails. Did you get the unit directly from Intel or from where you bought it?

 

I’ve RMA’ed and returned it to the shop I bought it from. They’ve replaced it for a new one.

 

Sorry to hear they’ve not responded yet to your emails/returned you a new one. I hope you’ll get one back soon!

[Bricki]

I just got my NUC7CJYH into the newton JC... The bass has tightened up again and everything sounds cleaner, blacker backgrounds and more space between instruments. More depth and better transients. 

 

There is now very good definition of drum skins and everything sounds more natural again. Vocals have an extra dose of realism too. 

 

One thing I am starting to notice more with the NUC/AL combo is that smooth sounds are smoother and drums have better immediacy... In other words, there is less colouration... When I play Ella Fitzgerald her voice is smooth and relaxed and then I can switch to leftfield or daft punk and none of the transients or bass are smoothed over... This tells me that it's truer to the recording and it's imparting less of its own character onto the music ?. Amazing value for money ?. 

 

Thank you again to Larry, Rajiv and Roy for your contributions to this awesome thread 

[rettib2001]

Could make for a decently powered server... Looks like we'll have to wait for a while though. 

 

https://www.techradar.com/amp/news/intel-might-launch-a-super-powered-8-core-core-i9-ghost-canyon-x-nuc-mini-pc

 

 

[BigAlMc]

Looks bigger than the 4x4 form factor that seems to be part of the "magic".

 

Be interesting to see if the awesome power is more important than the size.

 

Cheers,

Alan

[asdf1000]

On 11/17/2018 at 4:56 PM, Johnseye said:

 

Thanks! I didn't realize. My NUC has no hard drive. I wonder if it will boot from USB. 

 

Hi John

 

Did you end up comparing the NAA ramroot bootable image @Miska made, against Audiolinux ramroot NAA?

 

Any differences to your ears?

 

No sound quality differences to my ears...

 

But Jussi's image wins on performance for me - when playing new tracks there are pops just at the beginning of tracks with Audiolinux (and nearly every Linux distro I've had running NAA before).

 

With Jussi's bootable image, it's dead silence changing tracks, so Jussi's image easily wins for me. These pops between tracks (between, never during) are way more noticeable on headphones (which I use a lot) than speakers but they are still noticeable on speakers, again between tracks (not during for me).

 

Unexpected pops on headphones are never fun. Jussi's bootable image is flawless in this regard (as one would expect since he has full control of the bootable OS). And of course Jussi's bootable image comes free versus Audiolinux cost (assumption is someone already has a HQP license of course).

 

Interested to hear your impressions about sound quality though.

 

[rafa]

13 hours ago, sunny_time_99 said:

Hi,

did anyone tried daphile in a client/server setup and compare it to audiolinux? for the last nearly 4 years i am using daphile an the futro 900 thinclient with realy supreme audio results. i use it in an Server/Client Setup with my own designed power supply.

To try daphile its only a 5 Minute thing to do... You just need to prepare 2 usb sticks or sd-cards to make it run. anyone here who tried that too?

you can buy my recommended futro for 20-30 euro on eBay - and even when labled Fujitsu its still made in Germany! Its a perfect match for the daphile 64-bit rt kernel. 4GB ram is highly recommended. Throw the 20v smps and use a good and clean min. 2A rated LPS for optimal results.

 

On the picture os my prototype client. Newclassd neutron star reference clock. DC filter,  mosfet rectifier with lt4320, choke filter and belleson and uwb2 regulators. Seperate power for thin, cf, clock and a modified ideon 3R MK2. A bit small the enclosure... But its ok...

 

regards

sunny

5 transformers? Why you didn't get 1 with many secondary winding? You would save lot of space.

 

Do you power your drive (SSD?) on separate line as well? Did you test it how big SQ difference is this step?

[sunny_time_99]

@rafa

there are only 2 transformers. This is allready a compromise. Normally i use one transformator per psu. What you are pointing at is a differential mode choke. This is part of every psu i build. For the last 4 years i build a lot more than 40 different psu with different designs vom battery to ultracap vom choke incl. to shunt back and forth. In a high end psu you can try your very best to work against some of the more than 30 different kind of noise. Every transformator produces cm-noise. Therefore a cm-choke in the ac line is included. The hammond choke helps against hf-trash and differential mode noise. The big audible difference is the mosfet recitiver. Every kind of diode sounds different - from glass to schottky. I used differend kinds of  zobel during the years. But this mosfet stuff is a big step in sound. Clearer and more dynamics than any other. Space is not my problem.... If you would see my dacs. ?

 

I never would use a ssd. Compare hdd, sdd, msata, sd, usb stick an cf and let your ears decide...

 

Every part has a different power and that's importent.

 

Best regards

[Advieira]

On 12/3/2018 at 7:23 PM, austinpop said:

 

Orthogonal approach, to be honest.

 

I have always found the efficacy of HQPlayer to be dependent on the DAC. For the Terminator, it makes a big difference. For the Ayre QX-5, it likes native resolutions best. At least to my ears.

 

Raj, can you send a picture of your new topology chain?

And about Roy chains, how it works for now?

 

A Nuc+AL is much better (in your system and opinion) than SMS200-Ultra as endpoint?

The server (roon core) can be anything, a dell, mac mini, anything with this new topology using NUCs? The Roon core doesnt matter anymore?

 

Sorry, I cant follow this topic full time, it change and show new paths so fast.

[lmitche]

55 minutes ago, Advieira said:

It changes and shows new paths so fast.

Every so often someone expresses this sentiment about the "Novel" thread. This is a good thing. It is helpful to know how others perceive our progress.

 

To my mind, nothing fundamental has really changed since September with the early use of a NUC in ramboot using Audiolinux. But as one of the early adopters here, it makes sense that I would have this perspective. Nevertheless, I'd like to see if we can agree about where we are at, and where we are going with this thread.

As more mainstream adopters try the NUC solution, and after they post their experience, it sounds like they have discovered a new thing. For themselves this is true. Three months in, it is great to know more and more people are validating the benefits and enjoying the SQ available here. Let's hope this continues. Perhaps this could be one reason that a casual reader would suggest we are always on a new path. Make sense?

 

Instead, I'd say the truth is we are in the optimization stage.

 

1) We have new software releases tying up loose ends by adding user interface improvements and minor SQ enhancements

2) Many more NUC hardware combinations and permutations are being tested for incremental value and reported here

3) integration with a larger set of audio hardware and software solutions (player software like LMS, new DACs and LPSUs) continue to be reported

4) all the above are going to carry on for a long while

 

We have no firm findings that explain the mechanisms that are contributing to the SQ we are hearing. My hunch is that it is a combination of many HW and SW things.

 

Curiously there a small few that have tried and haven't heard the benefits. We don't know why. Attempts to discuss the reasons haven't been productive.

 

Anyway, those are my thoughts. I am sure there are other points of view that I haven't, or can't represent. What do others think? Where should we take this? Should we make changes or carry-on?

[kyrill]

" But Jussi's image wins on performance for me - when playing new tracks there are pops just at the beginning of tracks with Audiolinux (and nearly every Linux distro I've had running NAA before). "bold added

 

This rather alarming for me. Do more audiolinux users have these pops or clicks with teh beginning of a new track?

[Advieira]

15 minutes ago, lmitche said:

To my mind, nothing fundamental has really changed since September with the early use of a NUC in ramboot using Audiolinux.

 

 

Let me understand. A 7h Gen Nuc (i7 or celeron), used as Roon Endpoint (taking the place of Ultrarendu and SMS200Ultra) running Audio Linux in RAM (a solution no more than U$600) is better than UR and Ultra (with all theirs clocks, decraps and all).

And using a nH-10G before the NUC I am completely isolating the Roon Core Server, can using any PC or MAC without big impact on SQ?

 

Are those the new findings?

[LTG2010]

26 minutes ago, lmitche said:

Should we make changes or carry-on?

Carry on for now, there's so much more to discover especially on the server side, eg:

How powerfull does the server need to be?

Impact on power supply on server, atx or linear ?

Type of server NUC with linear power supply or standard high power setup?

Effect of better clocks on NUC.

[lmitche]

19 minutes ago, Advieira said:

 

 

Let me understand. A 7h Gen Nuc (i7 or celeron), used as Roon Endpoint (taking the place of Ultrarendu and SMS200Ultra) running Audio Linux in RAM (a solution no more than U$600) is better than UR and Ultra (with all theirs clocks, decraps and all).

And using a nH-10G before the NUC I am completely isolating the Roon Core Server, can using any PC or MAC without big impact on SQ?

 

Are those the new findings?

These questions can't be answered by me. I have never owned or heard an UltraRendu, SMS200Ultra or a nH-10G (whatever that is). With no first hand experience with these devices it would be wrong for me to comment.

 

Others with first hand experience have documented their findings above.

[Advieira]

13 minutes ago, lmitche said:

These questions can't be answered by me. I have never owned or heard an UltraRendu, SMS200Ultra or a nH-10G (whatever that is). With no first hand experience with these devices it would be wrong for me to comment.

 

Others with first hand experience have documented their findings above.

 Ok, I will wait @austinpop and @romaz confirming its findings.

[elan120]

43 minutes ago, kyrill said:

" But Jussi's image wins on performance for me - when playing new tracks there are pops just at the beginning of tracks with Audiolinux (and nearly every Linux distro I've had running NAA before). "bold added

 

This rather alarming for me. Do more audiolinux users have these pops or clicks with teh beginning of a new track?

No pops here.

[Dutch]

4 minutes ago, elan120 said:

No pops here.

 

I do believe he mentioned he gets those when running HQplayers NAA deamon so this does not need to apply to Roon, LMS etc.

[Dutch]

15 minutes ago, Advieira said:

 Ok, I will wait @austinpop and @romaz confirming its findings.

 

They’ve already shared their findings and your summary, though short, is quite right.

[elan120]

13 minutes ago, Dutch said:

 

I do believe he mentioned he gets those when running HQplayers NAA deamon so this does not need to apply to Roon, LMS etc.

I am not sure what the difference is, but when I tried either AL with HQP NAA selection or HQP NAA image, both running with ramroot setup, no pops was observed.

[Iving]

1 hour ago, lmitche said:

Every so often someone expresses this sentiment about the "Novel" thread. This is a good thing. It is helpful to know how others perceive our progress.

 

To my mind, nothing fundamental has really changed since September with the early use of a NUC in ramboot using Audiolinux. But as one of the early adopters here, it makes sense that I would have this perspective. Nevertheless, I'd like to see if we can agree about where we are at, and where we are going with this thread.

As more mainstream adopters try the NUC solution, and after they post their experience, it sounds like they have discovered a new thing. For themselves this is true. Three months in, it is great to know more and more people are validating the benefits and enjoying the SQ available here. Let's hope this continues. Perhaps this could be one reason that a casual reader would suggest we are always on a new path. Make sense?

 

Instead, I'd say the truth is we are in the optimization stage.

 

1) We have new software releases tying up loose ends by adding user interface improvements and minor SQ enhancements

2) Many more NUC hardware combinations and permutations are being tested for incremental value and reported here

3) integration with a larger set of audio hardware and software solutions (player software like LMS, new DACs and LPSUs) continue to be reported

4) all the above are going to carry on for a long while

 

We have no firm findings that explain the mechanisms that are contributing to the SQ we are hearing. My hunch is that it is a combination of many HW and SW things.

 

Curiously there a small few that have tried and haven't heard the benefits. We don't know why. Attempts to discuss the reasons haven't been productive.

 

Anyway, those are my thoughts. I am sure there are other points of view that I haven't, or can't represent. What do others think? Where should we take this? Should we make changes or carry-on?

Since you ask Larry!

 

I realise I am throwing a small spanner in the works - but only as food for thought: I am not trying to be "right" about anything!

 

I get that our ears (and our goosebumps) shall be the final arbiter of what constitutes good SQ. I know that a good philosopher confronts the subjective(ly experienced) as an angel fearing to tread. In ancient Norse mythology, "Iving" (my forum moniker) is the thrashing, unbridgeable river between the giants and the gods: perhaps a metaphor for the noisy shortfall audio equipment will never close between it and live music. With the exception of the lucky few owning or managing Hi-Fi stores, we have little (objective!) idea how distal from SQ Utopia we orbit at a given time. We revel in marginal improvements - yet there is so much headroom!

 

I don't own a NUC. I haven't ever owned one. I might consider trying one out, but I flinch from USB instinctively, like a rat exposed to "flavour aversion" in the laboratory. Instead I use a RedNet interface, and afaik AudioLinux doesn't support the Dante environment. I use fb2k sitting on "tamed" Windows 10 Pro manipulated via a tablet at the listening position courtesy of Remote Desktop. The convenience is enormous. I can select what I want in a heartbeat. Alternatively, I can trigger a playlist and detach the machine from the external network/tablet (although I haven't noticed a SQ advantage to write home about). I wholly endorse the notion that the PC is very much "where it's at". Whereas the early audiophile adopters in AoIP considered that upstream vagaries mattered little, I persevered with building a solid front end, and happily attest to SQ enhancements attributable there. In particular, an Optane PCIe AIC carrying the o/s and (flac) music raises the bar significantly. I use a PCIe AIC for ethernet too. Everything else is disabled. Reference to my mobo's block diagram suggests that the PCH/chipset is circumvented entirely. Dedicated clean power serves the PCIe AICs on the mobo. NB: Optane AICs are a different proposition to the smaller M.2 options which Larry (@lmitche) endorsed on another thread.

 

I have been encouraged by the various observations @PeterSt has rendered about PC power; especially this post: https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/38000-operating-systems-and-their-sound-signatures/?do=findComment&comment=758711. I have a sneaking suspicion - remaining happy to be corrected in time if that is how it works out - that it may not be so much *NUC* that accounts for the SQ enjoyed by so many of you right now as *PC power* - whether CPU spec. (cf. existing machines), cores etc. I have found that disabling SpeedStep (Asus BIOS) and keeping the CPU running at 100% helps.

 

Naturally, reflections on (i) Optane as PCIe AIC and (ii) PC specs inc. power supply and management are not contingent on RedNet vs. USB.

 

As a minor digression, whereas PC peculiarities are at the heart of the matter, the SQ gains to be had from mains noise management are truly astronomical in my experience (not that I receive especially dirty power where I live) - probably outstripping in most cases the difference between a very good PC and another one. I wonder about the extent to which mains noise can be favourably mollified for the price of a NUC.

[LTG2010]

1 hour ago, Advieira said:

Let me understand. A 7h Gen Nuc (i7 or celeron), used as Roon Endpoint (taking the place of Ultrarendu and SMS200Ultra) running Audio Linux in RAM (a solution no more than U$600) is better than UR and Ultra (with all theirs clocks, decraps and all).

Yes as a previous owner of an Ultra, but why? I'm not sure but there are some differences between the 2.

First,, the NUC in general has more processing power.

Second the NUC processors mentioned have a much larger processor cache.

Third, you can use audiolinux booted into RAM on the NUC, rather than an OS on a micro sd card. I dont think there is enough memory on the rendu/ultra to boot audiolinux in RAM, that would level the playing field for testing.

[Advieira]

9 minutes ago, LTG2010 said:

Yes as a previous owner of an Ultra, but why? I'm not sure but there are some differences between the 2.

First,, the NUC in general has more processing power.

Second the NUC processors mentioned have a much larger processor cache.

Third, you can use audiolinux booted into RAM on the NUC, rather than an OS on a micro sd card. I dont think there is enough memory on the rendu/ultra to boot audiolinux in RAM, that would level the playing field for testing.

 

Its possible to install ubuntu in a Mac Mini, so maybe audiolinux is possible too. If yes, should it have the same SQ as the NUC, or not?

[lmitche]

22 minutes ago, Iving said:

Since you ask Larry!

 

I realise I am throwing a small spanner in the works - but only as food for thought: I am not trying to be "right" about anything!

 

I get that our ears (and our goosebumps) shall be the final arbiter of what constitutes good SQ. I know that a good philosopher confronts the subjective(ly experienced) as an angel fearing to tread. In ancient Norse mythology, "Iving" (my forum moniker) is the thrashing, unbridgeable river between the giants and the gods: perhaps a metaphor for the noisy shortfall audio equipment will never close between it and live music. With the exception of the lucky few owning or managing Hi-Fi stores, we have little (objective!) idea how distal from SQ Utopia we orbit at a given time. We revel in marginal improvements - yet there is so much headroom!

 

I don't own a NUC. I haven't ever owned one. I might consider trying one out, but I flinch from USB instinctively, like a rat exposed to "flavour aversion" in the laboratory. Instead I use a RedNet interface, and afaik AudioLinux doesn't support the Dante environment. I use fb2k sitting on "tamed" Windows 10 Pro manipulated via a tablet at the listening position courtesy of Remote Desktop. The convenience is enormous. I can select what I want in a heartbeat. Alternatively, I can trigger a playlist and detach the machine from the external network/tablet (although I haven't noticed a SQ advantage to write home about). I wholly endorse the notion that the PC is very much "where it's at". Whereas the early audiophile adopters in AoIP considered that upstream vagaries mattered little, I persevered with building a solid front end, and happily attest to SQ enhancements attributable there. In particular, an Optane PCIe AIC carrying the o/s and (flac) music raises the bar significantly. I use a PCIe AIC for ethernet too. Everything else is disabled. Reference to my mobo's block diagram suggests that the PCH/chipset is circumvented entirely. Dedicated clean power serves the PCIe AICs on the mobo. NB: Optane AICs are a different proposition to the smaller M.2 options which Larry (@lmitche) endorsed on another thread.

 

I have been encouraged by the various observations @PeterSt has rendered about PC power; especially this post: https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/38000-operating-systems-and-their-sound-signatures/?do=findComment&comment=758711. I have a sneaking suspicion - remaining happy to be corrected in time if that is how it works out - that it may not be so much *NUC* that accounts for the SQ enjoyed by so many of you right now as *PC power* - whether CPU spec. (cf. existing machines), cores etc. I have found that disabling SpeedStep (Asus BIOS) and keeping the CPU running at 100% helps.

 

Naturally, reflections on (i) Optane as PCIe AIC and (ii) PC specs inc. power supply and management are not contingent on RedNet vs. USB.

 

As a minor digression, whereas PC peculiarities are at the heart of the matter, the SQ gains to be had from mains noise management are truly astronomical in my experience (not that I receive especially dirty power where I live) - probably outstripping in most cases the difference between a very good PC and another one. I wonder about the extent to which mains noise can be favourably mollified for about the price of a NUC.

Hi Iving,

 

First off, I read your recent post about your Optane AIC experience on another website. Thanks for that and do feel free to bump my Optane thread here with a posting on the same. The Optane prices keeps dropping, which makes it more accessible to us all.

 

I don't know anything about Rednet vs. USB but always open to learning more.

 

And yes, I think it safe to say we are all on the same page about the importance of power supplies. Many of the contributors here have spend many multiples of the cost of a NUC for LPSUs. I made a ridiculous post recently talking about the cost of the AC treatments, cables and DC supplies used for my NUC endpoint.

 

Having said that, there is more than the power quality that is contributing to the NUC sound. I highly recommend you give it a go.

[LTG2010]

8 minutes ago, Advieira said:

Its possible to install ubuntu in a Mac Mini, so maybe audiolinux is possible too. If yes, should it have the same SQ as the NUC, or not?

You will for sure get good sound quality, but will it beat the NUC?probably not but only you can confirm that.

The NUC is a very small board and has an SOC processor. So the USB and LAN inputs are controlled directly by the processor.

Also it responds very well to a good linear power supply (just like the rendu/ultra).

You could use your mac as a server with NUC endpoint.

[davide256]

59 minutes ago, LTG2010 said:

Yes as a previous owner of an Ultra, but why? I'm not sure but there are some differences between the 2.

First,, the NUC in general has more processing power.

Second the NUC processors mentioned have a much larger processor cache.

Third, you can use audiolinux booted into RAM on the NUC, rather than an OS on a micro sd card. I dont think there is enough memory on the rendu/ultra to boot audiolinux in RAM, that would level the playing field for testing.

Given the good result I can get with  LPS 1.2/overclocked RPI3/AL as endpoint I'm not buying a "more power/more RAM" argument for better endpoint.  I'd really like to hear

from anyone else who has tried this...  I'm still finding it more musical/irritant free than NUC7PJYH. We need to do more device comparisons, not expect NUC's to solve

everything for endpoint.

 

IME so far AL server makes biggest difference with  AL endpoint the next step. Running in RAM is a nice to have but can't discern more than a marginal

improvement with it.

 

Also beginning to wonder if mR and AL server solution have synergy issues to be sorted out...mR sounds better with slower NUC7PJH as AL server than it did with 

generic AMD FX8350 PC as server, running LXQT in both cases.

[lmitche]

2 hours ago, kyrill said:

" But Jussi's image wins on performance for me - when playing new tracks there are pops just at the beginning of tracks with Audiolinux (and nearly every Linux distro I've had running NAA before). "bold added

 

This rather alarming for me. Do more audiolinux users have these pops or clicks with teh beginning of a new track?

Hi Kyrill,

 

What are you using as an Hqplayer upsampling machine? How is it connected to your endpoint?

 

Larry