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A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming


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Most important: please realize this thread is about bleeding edge experimentation and discovery. No one has The Answer™. If you are not into tweaking, just know that you can have a musically satisfying system without doing any of the nutty things we do here.

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Also, another question/observation regarding AL on NUC:

 

The recent experiments suggest that AL on NUC as a streamer/endpoint is a screaming value beating out fully tricked out SoTM tri-fecta and similar devices. However, is there any intrinsic benefit of using a dedicated NUC + AL (or any other computer for that matter) for streaming/Roon endpoint instead of relying on a fully tricked out one single server (linear PSU + sCLK-EX modified mobo+USB PCIE) direct connection (with or without SoTM USBUltra) to DAC usb input?

 

I understand that a big benefit of isolated NUC is that your upstream computer can be noisey or less than perfect. When someone is building a dedicated fanless music server with proper PSU/clocking/audio grade USB PCIE - is there any benefit of using a streaming NUC+AL?

 

It'll also be interesting to see in a single server situation using AudioLinux and compare to Windows Server 2016 + Audiophile Optimizer.

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1 hour ago, rickca said:

So did you end up getting NUC8i7BEH or some other model? 

 

Please let us know how it turns out.  I'm particularly interested in how a quad core with base/turbo clocks of 2.7/4.5 GHz does with AudioLinux.  Are the reported benefits still there without a fanless case and LPS-1.2 power supply?  What power supply do you plan to use?

 

Yes, the NUC8i7BEH model.

 

I don't think lps-1.2 can power that model. For now I will use the supplied smps but need to figure out a good lps. Will use this on the server end and experiment with Roon/HQP/LMS, whichever sounds better in my setup and report back. For my use case, the NUC needs to do at least dsd256 and be stable and run cool. Will see.

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39 minutes ago, shahed99 said:

It'll also be interesting to see in a single server situation using AudioLinux and compare to Windows Server 2016 + Audiophile Optimizer.

 

For an apple to apple comparison, here's a guide that's created by @randytsuch

 

randytsuch's audio page: Running Windows from RAM

http://randytsuch-audio.blogspot.com/2016/02/running-windows-from-ram.html

 

For headless Windows, either Nano Server or IoT Core might do the trick

 

Install Nano Server
https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-server/get-started/getting-started-with-nano-server

 

Windows 10 IoT Core for MinnowBoard MAX
https://software-download.microsoft.com/download/sg/17763.107.181026-1406.rs5_release_svc_prod2_amd64fre_IOTCORE_X64_MBM.iso

https://software-download.microsoft.com/download/pr/17134.1.180410-1804.rs4_release_amd64fre_IOTCORE_MBM.iso

https://download.microsoft.com/download/5/F/9/5F917B68-020E-4993-A972-F1A7038510CF/16299.15.170928-1534.rs3_release_amd64fre_IOTCORE_MBM.iso

https://download.microsoft.com/download/D/E/C/DEC8E8BC-C870-4033-B92D-6A4AEF5ED82D/IOT Core MBM.ISO

 

Installing Windows IoT Core

https://minnowboard.org/tutorials/installing-windows-iot-core

 

Windows IoT Core for UP Board
https://downloads.up-community.org/download/windows-iot-core-for-up-board/

 

Windows 10 IoT Core
https://github.com/MicrosoftDocs/windows-iotcore-docs/blob/master/windows-iotcore/windows-iot-core.md

 

Windows 10 IoT on “regular” PC?
https://iot.stackexchange.com/questions/2160/windows-10-iot-on-regular-pc

 

Beginning IoT – Installing Windows 10 IoT Core on an x86/x64 Device
https://www.concurrency.com/blog/july-2018/beginning-iot-–-installing-windows-10-iot-core-on

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15 minutes ago, Dev said:

 

Yes, the NUC8i7BEH model.

 

I don't think lps-1.2 can power that model. For now I will use the supplied smps but need to figure out a good lps. Will use this on the server end and experiment with Roon/HQP/LMS, whichever sounds better in my setup and report back. For my use case, the NUC needs to do at least dsd256 and be stable and run cool. Will see.

Curious if you have a fanless case for the NUC8. If not, fan can have some negative impact on sound quality by creating ripples (even when the fan is not audible). However, the point is moot if you are using another NUC to stream.

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34 minutes ago, shahed99 said:

Curious if you have a fanless case for the NUC8. If not, fan can have some negative impact on sound quality by creating ripples (even when the fan is not audible). However, the point is moot if you are using another NUC to stream.

 

There is no fanless case available for NUC8 today. I am assuming the Akasa folks are working on it, so when its available I will get one. Not sure how much effect the fan has on the SQ while using as server duties but I would not be surprised if it does ? I am using NUC7CJYH as a streamer.

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14 hours ago, MrUnderhill said:

5.5/2.5

 

You can buy adapters if you have 5.5/2.1.

Thank you Underhill.

 

I'm not a DIY guy and never good at soldering.  I used to buy DC cables from Ghent and now find that there are many options like star quad, upocc, ..., 

 

Please advise me which cable should I use or your experience.

 

Suggestions of other DC cable makers are welcome.  You may pm me because this post may be off topic.

 

Many thanks.

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5 hours ago, rickca said:

Happy Thanksgiving!  I want to thank the incredibly generous people here who share their observations and ideas and help me understand how to get the most out of my system.

 

It's like being in a fairy tale. ? 

As a matter of fact, our thread was referred as a fairy tale thread not that long time ago.  However, the tone wasn't positive there.

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2 hours ago, shahed99 said:

Is it better to have a 16GB ram than 8GB for AL NUC? This up squared fanless system seems like a screaming deal for NUC use.

 

https://up-shop.org/home/258-up-squared-edge-system-powered-by-intel-x7-e3950-soc-8gb-ram-64gb-emmc.html

 

It comes with:

* Intel ATOM Quad Core up to 2.0GHz x7-E3950

* 8 GB RAM

* 2x GB Ethernet (Is that the ideal for direct connection to upstream server?)

*64GB eMMC Storage (Is there any point of eMMC storage if someone is booting from AudioLinux on USB?)

 

The price seems very reasonable at $399. Anyone tried this as NUC with AL?

It depends on the purpose.  If it's a single box sever, bigger RAM could be better.  If it's just for headless running NAA, smaller RAM implies smaller electrical noise.  Anyway, I stand corrected.

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2 hours ago, shahed99 said:

Also, another question/observation regarding AL on NUC:

 

The recent experiments suggest that AL on NUC as a streamer/endpoint is a screaming value beating out fully tricked out SoTM tri-fecta and similar devices. However, is there any intrinsic benefit of using a dedicated NUC + AL (or any other computer for that matter) for streaming/Roon endpoint instead of relying on a fully tricked out one single server (linear PSU + sCLK-EX modified mobo+USB PCIE) direct connection (with or without SoTM USBUltra) to DAC usb input?

 

I understand that a big benefit of isolated NUC is that your upstream computer can be noisey or less than perfect. When someone is building a dedicated fanless music server with proper PSU/clocking/audio grade USB PCIE - is there any benefit of using a streaming NUC+AL?

 

It'll also be interesting to see in a single server situation using AudioLinux and compare to Windows Server 2016 + Audiophile Optimizer.

If money no object, PF 2.16, probably the best single box solution.  flkin has detailed his findings in this thread and in another thread totally dedicated to it.

 

However, a dual box PF 2.16 still sounds better.

 

The root problems of CAS are electrical noises and jitters.  2 box solution attacks the first more effectively than a single box solution.

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1 minute ago, lmitche said:

How do you know this? Have you heard this solution? There are many here that would disagree. Please stick with your actual experience in this thread. Thank you.

Larry,

 

flkin posted his impression here.  Incidentally, I read his PF thread (each of the posts) few days ago that started at around June 2018, much earlier than our very heated discussion in this thread on the AL+NUC solution recently.

 

What's wrong of quoting others' b/w impressions?  I'm happy that many here would disagree because I believe in "we disagree agreeably".  This is a subjective hobby afterall and difference in opinions is natural.

 

If only items that one has actually experienced may share here, this thread (and many threads as well) may not be as useful as it is now.  I often see posts like "I heard this is good, you may try" and I' m grateful.  This type of reply at least save me sometime for searching and mostly rewarding as it turned out.  Anyway, here is Internet and all sorts of opinions come.  The reader should discern the opinions.

 

Regards

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1 hour ago, greenleo said:

I'm not a DIY guy and never good at soldering.  I used to buy DC cables from Ghent and now find that there are many options like star quad, upocc, ..., 

 

Please advise me which cable should I use or your experience.

 

Suggestions of other DC cable makers are welcome.  You may pm me because this post may be off topic.

 

 

I have 3 of the Gotham GAC4 cables with shields configured to JSSG360 and they are outstanding.  Mine were hand made for me by @lmitche, but a couple of months ago Ghent (who seems to watch threads here or is prompted by @R1200CL :ph34r:) has begun offering the Gotham GAC4/JSSG360.

https://www.ghentaudio.com/part/dc-gac4.html

I make no claim about if Ghent are hooking up the shields properly (the GAC4 is a confusing cable! https://gothamcables.com/en/gothamcables/starquad/11301gac41ultrapro).

The owner of Ghent sent me an e-mail--offering us samples (thank you for all the referrals for DC and 'Y' cords I guess), but I have not had a chance to reply with a list.

 

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31 minutes ago, lmitche said:

We try to post first hand experience here, not experience heard third hand from others. It keeps the thread focused and genuine. Many thanks.

Sorry, I still don't get it.  Quoting an experience will not make it more or less genuine.  I was answering other member's post and would appreciate the member to told me that he find my reply inappropriate.

 

I'll stop here as our recent posts are not SQ or audio related but off topic.  No point to continue because you think only 1st hand experience may be posted (which certainly has a point) and I believe quoted experience could be useful and have been useful (my 1st hand experience, hence I regard my POV has a point as well).  There is no absolute right or wrong.  I don't think we can agree on this.  Hopefully, we may disagree agreeably.

 

BTW, Rajiv please delete my posts if necessary since I may have infringed on something I didn't aware of and I sincerely apologize in advance.

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50 minutes ago, Superdad said:

 

 

I have 3 of the Gotham GAC4 cables with shields configured to JSSG360 and they are outstanding.  Mine were hand made for me by @lmitche, but a couple of months ago Ghent (who seems to watch threads here or is prompted by @R1200CL :ph34r:) has begun offering the Gotham GAC4/JSSG360.

https://www.ghentaudio.com/part/dc-gac4.html

I make no claim about if Ghent are hooking up the shields properly (the GAC4 is a confusing cable! https://gothamcables.com/en/gothamcables/starquad/11301gac41ultrapro).

The owner of Ghent sent me an e-mail--offering us samples (thank you for all the referrals for DC and 'Y' cords I guess), but I have not had a chance to reply with a list.

 

Thank you Alex.

 

Ghent is the only company I know.

 

If Larry is willing to sell the DC cable, I am more than happy to buy one.  When I read Roy's post quite sometime ago, I got an impression that Larry refused taking any money from him, even the shipment fee (I may be wrong as it is already quite some time).

 

So far I know that Larry is selling NUCs and the customers  were very happy as seen from the posts in this thread.  In case Larry read this post and does sell DC cables, please chime in or pm me.

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13 minutes ago, mourip said:

For those running AL in ramroot mode have you tried either "Realtime Priority Extreme" or "Change Boot Default to Extreme"?

...and for that matter does anyone know what these settings actually do?

I tried GUI RAMBoot standard and headless RAMBoot extreme.  Both using HQP and the headless was an NAA.  The latter sounds better.

 

For the realtime priority extreme, the CPU basically never rest (the physical aspect), and the latency decreased and the SQ (hopefully) is better.  YMMV.

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20 hours ago, hifi25nl said:

See for example the new how-to for big Roon database in ram mode: http://www.audio-linux.com/html/roon.html

 

I have used an expanded variant of the technique described in Piero's page above. Rather than just move the /var/roon/RoonServer/Database contents to a persistent store, I went ahead and moved everything in /var/roon. This seems to work just fine to keep database updates persistent, even when running in ramroot mode.

 

Additionally, I had also moved the Roon executables in /opt/Roon* to persistent storage. The idea here is to allow Roon updates - like the recent update to build 363 - to be persistent in ramroot mode.

 

Today, I tried another experiment, because I wondered whether either of these actions, while benefiting usability, hampered SQ. So I compared:

  1. Default: both database and executables persistent
  2. database only: only database (/var/roon) persistent
  3. non-persistent: both database and executables on ramroot

I could do all 3 because even though I have a substantial library, my DB size is about 1.5GB, so it still fits in the ramroot partition, albeit with lesser free space.

 

Cutting to the chase, there is an uptick in SQ going from 1 to 2, but nothing I could discern going from 2 to 3. Keep in mind this is on my all-in-one Zenith SE. I'll revisit this when I get a NUC and try the distributed approach.

 

So for now, I'm moving to config 2, where I load the database from a persistent store, while the Roon executables live in the ramroot partition. Functionally, what this means is anytime there is a Roon update, I'll need to test whether a ramsave after the update reliably persists the change. Alternately, I'll need to reboot back into normal mode, and do the update.

 

I'd love to know if others have tried this.

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7 hours ago, lmitche said:

How do you know this? Have you heard this solution?

 

Yes I have ? and it's good! ?

 

7 hours ago, greenleo said:

..

flkin posted his impression here.  Incidentally, I read his PF thread (each of the posts) few days ago that started at around June 2018, much earlier than our very heated discussion in this thread on the AL+NUC solution recently.

...

 

I don't mean to take credit for the recent thread discussions about Piero's AudioLinux as AL has been around for a long time, but it's one of the design features in the Pink Faun 2.16x streamer that makes it sound sooo good. And this was described in detail in both my reviews of the PF where I explained that Jord worked with Piero to create an optimised version of the AL for the streamer that emphasised on low latency. Actually Piero talks about this in his website also shown below (didn't ask for permission to clip this, hope it's ok).

 

1907350226_Screenshot2018-11-22at3_43_39PM.thumb.jpg.3ea57b4367e791810130db421d74c89f.jpg

 

I'm hopeful I contributed to this thread by kickstarting the AL cause or at least nudging it along in the early discussions but even if not, glad to see the benefits people are experiencing now.

 

Larry, you've got me interested in seeing how your NUC/AL might server as an Roon endpoint with my PF as a streamer. I already tried it with the SonicTransporter i5 (and the usual ultraRendu, sMS-200 etc) but it didn't work out. Perhaps the difference is in the OS. I wonder how much it would cost to build one with say the SOtM sCLK-ex card inside with a ref clock input? I'm loath to switch back to an end point without clock options.

 

But it's true that a double box 2.16 would sound better - I don't have personal experience of this - but Jord informs me that this is how he plays his own system today and recommends it. I wonder how many people could go this route given the costs! ? 

 

What's interesting is what Pink Faun is planning but still sometime to go :

 

Quote

  • "We're planning a high-end build of the Scion within a couple years, this high end version can be used right after the streamer 2.16, sort of a dedicated dual setup!"

A high end Roon endpoint based on an extreme version of their Scion. An ultra-capacitor version matched to their 2.16 streamer. It would still have to be reasonably priced to make it work though.

 

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9 hours ago, greenleo said:

Thank you Underhill.

 

I'm not a DIY guy and never good at soldering.  I used to buy DC cables from Ghent and now find that there are many options like star quad, upocc, ..., 

 

Please advise me which cable should I use or your experience.

 

Suggestions of other DC cable makers are welcome.  You may pm me because this post may be off topic.

 

Many thanks.

You can buy adapters to use with any current (sic) cables you have:

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B004HTFCYY/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

and

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00NLDLDIQ/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

I will PM you.

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Another BIG Gotham JSSG360 cable.

 

I finally completed my BIG Gotham JSSG360 cable for my PC over the past weekend, and this time it is the 24pin ATX cable for motherboard.  This cable is more challenging to make, mainly due to much more cables to sort out, but aging, very rewarding in return.  After having almost all of the cables replaced in my system, I am still surprised this one cable (or a bunch) can help lift the sound quality up this much.

 

Below is a picture of the cable connected to the motherboard ATX24pin connector, and I would recommend this to anyone without hesitation.

 

20181119_154351.thumb.jpg.d1c23d9eaa887250e7496d4b58823cb0.jpg

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