A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming

[MrUnderhill]

On 10/30/2018 at 6:14 AM, romaz said:

 

The improvement.......

 

6 hours ago, lmitche said:

Hi John,

........

 

Gents,

 

Just want to say thank you for all the hard work you are putting into reporting your findings.

 

I have just done a three-way comparison between the ultraRendu, SOtM 200 ultra-txUSBultra-sps500, and the DCS Network Bridge. Having completed that you have encouraged me to buy the Celeron NUC, the suggested memory and AudioLinux - I will be fascinated to have a listen - even with a less than ideal PSU.

 

M

[the_doc735]

28 minutes ago, misterspense said:

As attractive this may seem, note that these are all very subjective. I've fiddling around with my system, tweaking lot of parts, and continuously notice differences, think it is getting better every time, and then some itch makes me go back to a more simple setup, and again I perceive it as 'better'.

 

keep it simple ...yes!

[the_doc735]

23 minutes ago, MrUnderhill said:

 

 

Gents,

 

Just want to say thank you for all the hard work you are putting into reporting your findings.

 

I have just done a three-way comparison between the ultraRendu, SOtM 200 ultra-txUSBultra-sps500, and the DCS Network Bridge. Having completed that you have encouraged me to buy the Celeron NUC, the suggested memory and AudioLinux - I will be fascinated to have a listen - even with a less than ideal PSU.

 

M

please keep us posted! ~ you doing your comparison 'blind' without knowledge of which setup you are listening to?   'YES!'?   ...otherwise it could be a placebo effect? take care.

PS: what about graphs (evidence)?

[Confused]

3 hours ago, MrUnderhill said:

 

 

Gents,

 

Just want to say thank you for all the hard work you are putting into reporting your findings.

 

I have just done a three-way comparison between the ultraRendu, SOtM 200 ultra-txUSBultra-sps500, and the DCS Network Bridge. Having completed that you have encouraged me to buy the Celeron NUC, the suggested memory and AudioLinux - I will be fascinated to have a listen - even with a less than ideal PSU.

 

M

Any obvious winners or losers between the ultraRendu, SOtM 200 ultra-txUSBultra-sps500, and the DCS Network Bridge?

[Cooler]

3 hours ago, MrUnderhill said:

 

 

Gents,

 

Just want to say thank you for all the hard work you are putting into reporting your findings.

 

I have just done a three-way comparison between the ultraRendu, SOtM 200 ultra-txUSBultra-sps500, and the DCS Network Bridge. Having completed that you have encouraged me to buy the Celeron NUC, the suggested memory and AudioLinux - I will be fascinated to have a listen - even with a less than ideal PSU.

 

M

 

This is very interesting, can you share with us your thoughts?!

[beautiful music]

5 minutes ago, Cooler said:

 

This is very interesting, can you share with us your thoughts?!

+1

[elan120]

7 hours ago, beautiful music said:

 

Thank you for this information but may we know the length of both Gotham cables.

I didn't measure the exact cable length as I build them based on how I want to physically route the cables and cut them.  They are roughly 7 and 8 inches long, but would be better to have a physical measurement before cutting them.

 

The longer cable will be long enough and need the outer insulator stripped back a little longer (1/4 ~ 1/2 inches) then the rest on txUSBhubIn side connecting to J403.  This is to allow enough bent going around the larger/taller brown cap (C300?) in order to fit the space between the USB power switch board right above it.

[Johnseye]

11 hours ago, lmitche said:

Hi John,

 

Sorry I missed this question in last night's fracas.

 

No I have not tried Hqplayer and/or the NAA on the NUC. The last time I tried using the NAA with a streamer a zero db pop fest resulted in torn foam on four woofers. I am going to have to find sacrificial speakers or headphones or iems before trying this again. They are not going in or over my ears.

 

Having come from a single PC direct connect hqplayer win 10 setup with a slight tick after play stopped, I am impressed with the lack of ticks and pops with Roon. It is obvious that a lot of work has been done to accomplish this. That and the superior SQ with bit perfect playback, all upsampling options sounds worse, means I am loath to make changes.

 

Nevertheless I dug the upsampling machine out of mothballs yesterday and it is setup in a way that will make this test easy to try. I should have some cheap airliner iems somewhere . . .

 

Thanks.  I'll let you know what I find as well.  Still waiting on the NUC but it should be here any day.

[Middy]

Just a note, bare bones does come with a laptop style PSU with international plugs. There is an approved list on intel site for that NUCs memory. Was suggested that single Ram module goes in the lower slot.. Celeron. NUC

sorry lost link.. 

Cheers

Dave

 

[austinpop]

Just noticed this thread crossed the 10,000 post mark in the last couple days.

 

I bet when @romaz started this thread and named it "novel," he wasn't expecting it to become as long as War and Peace!

[MrUnderhill]

2 hours ago, Confused said:

Any obvious winners or losers between the SOtM 200 ultra-txUSBultra-sps500, and the DCS Network Bridge?

This is my first draft for posting elsewhere

 

SOtM vs ultraRendu vs DCS Network Bridge

 

I was joined by two friends, one of whom bought along his DCS Network Bridge.

The landscape into which I fitted the chains below is:

https://s33.postimg.cc/wggliduhr/Digital_Audio-201808-_I.jpg

 

The digital chains fed into:
Digital > Audio Note 2.1 (upgraded with Blackgate caps) > EAR868/534 > Focal 1008be II.

 

The chains were as follows:

1) Network >> SOtM sms200 ultra (sps500 + CAT7) > Uptone Iso Regen (LPSU + CAT7 + LT3045) > SOtM txUSB ulta (sps500 + CAT7) > SingXer F1 (LPSU + Dual CAT8 + LT3045) >> system
1) Network >> SOtM sms200 ultra (sps500) > Uptone Iso Regen (LPSU + CAT7 + LT3045) > SOtM txUSB ulta (sps500) > SingXer F1 (LPSU + Dual CAT8 + LT3045) >> system
2) Network >> Sonore ultraRendu (LPSU + LT3045) > Uptone Iso Regen (LPSU + CAT7 + LT3045) > SOtM txUSB ulta (sps500 + CAT7) > SingXer F1 (LPSU + Dual CAT8 + LT3045) >> system
3) Network >> Sonore ultraRendu (LPSU + LT3045) > Uptone Iso Regen (LPSU + CAT7 + LT3045) > SingXer F1 (LPSU + Dual CAT8 + LT3045) >> system
4) Network >> Sonore ultraRendu (LPSU + LT3045 + CAT7) > Uptone Iso Regen (LPSU + CAT7 + LT3045) > SingXer F1 (LPSU + Dual CAT8 + LT3045) >> system
5) Network >> DCS Network Bridge >> system

 

We also had a Raspberry Pi3 with SPDIF board ....but, we ran out of time.

 

Summary:
All the eqiupment was capable and served up plenty of good music.
The SOtM and Sonore were on a par but had different sound signatures, and so you would need to listen to decide which floats your particular boat.
The ultraRendu (uR) has a somewhat brighter presentation than the SOtM which also has a deeper bass, although the uR presents bass lines in a more heightened way.
Both devices reveal plenty of detail, but in a subtlety different way.

Over all if called upon to choose then I would probably select the SOtM, but I can see that others would select the uR.

 

On the day the winner was ......the DCS Network Bridge.

 

My Observations:

The SOtM stack with CAT7 PoE on the DC reduced the dynamics slightly, but revealed a delightful 3D in the sound field. This was my preferred SOtM presentation. Removing the CAT7 gave greater dynamics and impact, but also fractionally collapsed the 3D and reduced some delightful subtlety.

 

I have read that replacing the sms200 ultra with a microRendu causes the sound quality to reduce, not so with the ultraRendu, but the character does change as described above.

 

Removing the txUSB from the chain to just have the ultraRendu did result in a sharper presentation. Also, as the complexity of the music increased I did feel that some of the clarity was reduced. With my fellow listeners shielded from my deeds I swapped in a AQ Pearl CAT7 into the DC feeding the uR. The immediate comment, 'Have you just swapped the SOtM txUSB back in?'; this effected the tone, but not I felt the clarity.

 

There were other chains we could have tried, such as removing the Iso Regen. However, what we did took 5.5 hours, and the Iso Regen in combination with the SOtM is widely praised, and I know it is good for the uR.

 

The DCS NB simplifies things significantly. Goodbye LPSUs, goodbye spaghetti, goodbye LT3045. Having heard it a few weeks ago I was expecting the DCS to be a tad more strident than chain (1) and have a slightly more 2D soundfield. My latter expectation was met, but the musical flow and resolution was simply better. The music was more cohesive, it sounded 'of a piece'.

 

Now the DCS NB is significantly more expensive, and the SOtM/uR do have other potential improvements. I was already exploring buying a far better multi-rail LPSU and looking into a Master Clock, but this would add a further £2k and £1k - £3.5k respectively - whoops!

 

Is a cheaper and better solution available? I am following an informative thread on Computer Audiophile, and will report back once some new, and rather cheap, kit arrives and I have set it up.

 

Metatron's Observations:

Hi M,

For me, the thing that stood out when I compared RPi3 to dCS (I got it wrong yesterday, it was Linn Akurate DSM that I didn't compare to dCS as I never had both units at the same time)...I found that the dCS has two stand out things:

1) impeccable timing... everything timed well, so PRaT was always as it should be, without artificially fast attack... so it never fatigues and does do decay properly

2) it aids the DAC in resolving everything in the most 3D way.... not individual parts pulled out and noticeable, like huge bass, or plenty of presence, or amazing cymbals, but it manages to keep separate all the musical parts to a level where relative to each other they are still correct and musical. Nothing seems artificially pronounced.

M

 

 

[Solid-State]

After I have tested audiolinux for a while now on a non-NUC computer, I can strongly recommend it,
Have tried everything from Windows Server 2012 onwards with different extensions,
And Audiolinux belongs to one of the cleanest o clearest sounds I've heard and had a very good experience of Piero,
Can strongly recommend trying it out,

[Confused]

5 hours ago, MrUnderhill said:

This is my first draft for posting elsewhere

 

SOtM vs ultraRendu vs DCS Network Bridge

 

I was joined by two friends, one of whom bought along his DCS Network Bridge.

The landscape into which I fitted the chains below is:

https://s33.postimg.cc/wggliduhr/Digital_Audio-201808-_I.jpg

 

The digital chains fed into:
Digital > Audio Note 2.1 (upgraded with Blackgate caps) > EAR868/534 > Focal 1008be II.

 

The chains were as follows:

1) Network >> SOtM sms200 ultra (sps500 + CAT7) > Uptone Iso Regen (LPSU + CAT7 + LT3045) > SOtM txUSB ulta (sps500 + CAT7) > SingXer F1 (LPSU + Dual CAT8 + LT3045) >> system
1) Network >> SOtM sms200 ultra (sps500) > Uptone Iso Regen (LPSU + CAT7 + LT3045) > SOtM txUSB ulta (sps500) > SingXer F1 (LPSU + Dual CAT8 + LT3045) >> system
2) Network >> Sonore ultraRendu (LPSU + LT3045) > Uptone Iso Regen (LPSU + CAT7 + LT3045) > SOtM txUSB ulta (sps500 + CAT7) > SingXer F1 (LPSU + Dual CAT8 + LT3045) >> system
3) Network >> Sonore ultraRendu (LPSU + LT3045) > Uptone Iso Regen (LPSU + CAT7 + LT3045) > SingXer F1 (LPSU + Dual CAT8 + LT3045) >> system
4) Network >> Sonore ultraRendu (LPSU + LT3045 + CAT7) > Uptone Iso Regen (LPSU + CAT7 + LT3045) > SingXer F1 (LPSU + Dual CAT8 + LT3045) >> system
5) Network >> DCS Network Bridge >> system

 

We also had a Raspberry Pi3 with SPDIF board ....but, we ran out of time.

 

Summary:
All the eqiupment was capable and served up plenty of good music.
The SOtM and Sonore were on a par but had different sound signatures, and so you would need to listen to decide which floats your particular boat.
The ultraRendu (uR) has a somewhat brighter presentation than the SOtM which also has a deeper bass, although the uR presents bass lines in a more heightened way.
Both devices reveal plenty of detail, but in a subtlety different way.

Over all if called upon to choose then I would probably select the SOtM, but I can see that others would select the uR.

 

On the day the winner was ......the DCS Network Bridge.

 

My Observations:

The SOtM stack with CAT7 PoE on the DC reduced the dynamics slightly, but revealed a delightful 3D in the sound field. This was my preferred SOtM presentation. Removing the CAT7 gave greater dynamics and impact, but also fractionally collapsed the 3D and reduced some delightful subtlety.

 

I have read that replacing the sms200 ultra with a microRendu causes the sound quality to reduce, not so with the ultraRendu, but the character does change as described above.

 

Removing the txUSB from the chain to just have the ultraRendu did result in a sharper presentation. Also, as the complexity of the music increased I did feel that some of the clarity was reduced. With my fellow listeners shielded from my deeds I swapped in a AQ Pearl CAT7 into the DC feeding the uR. The immediate comment, 'Have you just swapped the SOtM txUSB back in?'; this effected the tone, but not I felt the clarity.

 

There were other chains we could have tried, such as removing the Iso Regen. However, what we did took 5.5 hours, and the Iso Regen in combination with the SOtM is widely praised, and I know it is good for the uR.

 

The DCS NB simplifies things significantly. Goodbye LPSUs, goodbye spaghetti, goodbye LT3045. Having heard it a few weeks ago I was expecting the DCS to be a tad more strident than chain (1) and have a slightly more 2D soundfield. My latter expectation was met, but the musical flow and resolution was simply better. The music was more cohesive, it sounded 'of a piece'.

 

Now the DCS NB is significantly more expensive, and the SOtM/uR do have other potential improvements. I was already exploring buying a far better multi-rail LPSU and looking into a Master Clock, but this would add a further £2k and £1k - £3.5k respectively - whoops!

 

Is a cheaper and better solution available? I am following an informative thread on Computer Audiophile, and will report back once some new, and rather cheap, kit arrives and I have set it up.

 

Metatron's Observations:

Hi M,

For me, the thing that stood out when I compared RPi3 to dCS (I got it wrong yesterday, it was Linn Akurate DSM that I didn't compare to dCS as I never had both units at the same time)...I found that the dCS has two stand out things:

1) impeccable timing... everything timed well, so PRaT was always as it should be, without artificially fast attack... so it never fatigues and does do decay properly

2) it aids the DAC in resolving everything in the most 3D way.... not individual parts pulled out and noticeable, like huge bass, or plenty of presence, or amazing cymbals, but it manages to keep separate all the musical parts to a level where relative to each other they are still correct and musical. Nothing seems artificially pronounced.

M

 

 

An excellent summary, and far more detail than I was expecting, so thanks for that!

 

I have a couple of questions.  You mention that the ultraRendu is a touch brighter than the sMS-200ulra, plus less bass.  How would you say the Network Bridge compares in this regard, that is in terms of tonal balance?

 

Also, is the sMS-200 the Neo version, or the original?

[novaca]

Full of praise for Audiolinux and NUC here.
Has anyone compared Audiolinux with wtfplay?
Yes, the fundamental difference in features but pure sound quality?

 

Also, I can not find a direct comparison of NUC vs PC (based on Supermicro X10SBA motherboard - powering 12V + ATX) with the same OS. For use like NAA or single computer (non-upsampling).
Is NUC really better (as I have understood from this long thread)?

[taipan254]

1 hour ago, novaca said:

Full of praise for Audiolinux and NUC here.
Has anyone compared Audiolinux with wtfplay?
Yes, the fundamental difference in features but pure sound quality?

 

Also, I can not find a direct comparison of NUC vs PC (based on Supermicro X10SBA motherboard - powering 12V + ATX) with the same OS. For use like NAA or single computer (non-upsampling).
Is NUC really better (as I have understood from this long thread)?

 

Roy and Larry's findings seem to imply:

 

1. More cores are better

2. Linear power supplies are better (and PH Dual Regulation is the best)

 

So, I'd venture to guess the answer to your question is... it depends on the processor! So, from what I've read so far, I'd rather have a low power i3 or i5 NUC passively cooled powered by one linear power supply than shelling out the extra $ for a low power mini-itx board that requires 2 power supplies. At least on the renderer side. 

 

It's too bad that we can't just get a great one-box server / renderer solution. That truly is the holy grail.

 

It, though, is impossible to fault Roy, Larry, and the rest of the pioneers on this thread. How many thousands of dollars and hours have they spent for our benefit?  I'm still trying to DIY a decent linear power supply (working on a sigma 11 over here)! 

 

 

[lmitche]

2 hours ago, novaca said:

Full of praise for Audiolinux and NUC here.
Has anyone compared Audiolinux with wtfplay?

 

Also, I can not find a direct comparison of NUC vs PC (based on Supermicro X10SBA motherboard - powering 12V + ATX) with the same OS. For use like NAA or single computer (non-upsampling).
Is NUC really better (as I have understood from this long thread)?

To the best of my knowledge no one has tested wtfplay here.

 

Others may have experience with the Supermicro motherboard mentioned above.

[lmitche]

1 hour ago, taipan254 said:

 

Roy and Larry's findings seem to imply:

 

1. More cores are better

2. Linear power supplies are better (and PH Dual Regulation is the best)

 

So, I'd venture to guess the answer to your question is... it depends on the processor! So, from what I've read so far, I'd rather have a low power i3 or i5 NUC passively cooled powered by one linear power supply than shelling out the extra $ for a low power mini-itx board that requires 2 power supplies. At least on the renderer side. 

 

It's too bad that we can't just get a great one-box server / renderer solution. That truly is the holy grail.

 

It, though, is impossible to fault Roy, Larry, and the rest of the pioneers on this thread. How many thousands of dollars and hours have they spent for our benefit?  I'm still trying to DIY a decent linear power supply (working on a sigma 11 over here)! 

 

 

You mention implications of our work. Be patient and you will get observations! This takes time but is well worth it.

[greenleo]

@Larry,

 

After a few days, I can do auto-mount and RAMBoot in AudioLinux and want to move to the headless.  Thanks again for your sharing.

 

In your setup, do you change the GUI version to headless or use the image of the headless version directly?

[lmitche]

I don't know enough to make a headed version of Linux headless.

[greenleo]

Thanks for the reply, Larry.

[MrUnderhill]

13 hours ago, Confused said:

An excellent summary, and far more detail than I was expecting, so thanks for that!

 

I have a couple of questions.  You mention that the ultraRendu is a touch brighter than the sMS-200ulra, plus less bass.  How would you say the Network Bridge compares in this regard, that is in terms of tonal balance?

 

Also, is the sMS-200 the Neo version, or the original?

Hi Confused,

 

I would say that the SOtM dig deeper into the bass, but the uR is a bit more explicit in its presentation of the bass lines - which I really enjoy.

 

My feeling was that the DCS NB combined the strengths of both the SOtM and the uR, which is really amazing when it is simply plugged into my house power, although at a price.

 

Please remember that I am not using a Paul Hynes PSU, for instance, and that may make the difference. I will add a post laying out what I have done in setting up my system.

 

All this said, I am really looking forward to listening to the NUC, it may blow them all away!

 

M

[MrUnderhill]

Hi Confused,

 

A bit more background on my front end setup.

 

When I got my microRendu I fell in love with the dynamics and the detail, but alongside it came EDGE. It took me 18 months to get that EDGE down to a level that I found acceptable; that is, only the edge that is in the recording!

 

The solution was in various parts which had a greater or lessor influence, although I found them to be additive. Here I will just discuss what I have done in my front end, not with my servers and files. The parts consisted of:

1. Grounding
   This was a journey. Initially I started out by using Isolation Transformers to try and form a barrier to noise. What I succeeded in doing was highlighting to myself the need for careful consideration of grounding - hums broke out all over!
   Ultimately I realised that I had a number of devices that were powered and used floating earths, in combination with devices that were earthed through their power cables. I bought a standard earthing block and ran a cable from a metal part of every floating earth device back to the block. I then ran a cable from the block to my pre-amp. My intention was to try and have one route to earth.
   This had a small positive effect.
2. LPSU
   I have run through a number of PSUs, including: SMPS cheapos; IFI iPower SMPS; Cheap Chinese LPSU; R-Core LPSUs; and, Uptone LPS-1.
   I have not gone to the expense of a Paul Hynes, but an SR7 is definitely on my 'perhaps' list, and I have been in contact with Paul & Sean Jacobs.
   I found that GENERALLY, but not always, making a larger current available led to good results; i.e. a 2A supply where 1A is the spec.
   I found cheap SMPS to be dreadful; but, they interestingly emphasised certain frequency ranges.
   The IFIs were a definite step up.
   Cheap LPSUs were on a similar level to the IFI.
   R-Core were better.
   The LPS-1 was detailed and dynamic, but I found I preferred an over specified R-Core overall - but this was a matter of taste.
   This had a moderate positive effect.
3. LT3045
   These cards remove noise, and having tried one I fitted them everywhere I could. You need to make them up in a hobby box with a bit of soldering.
   An R-Core + LT3045 became my PSU of choice, and enabled me to sell my LPS-1s without a worry.
   This had a moderate positive effect.
4. DC Cabling & PoE
   This is an interesting one. The cables used to connect the DC power have a ridiculous influence. The best I have found is a DUAL CAT arrangement using Power over Ethernet (PoE). The CAT cables do matter, and the best to date have been Audioquest. I am using Pearls, but Cinnamon is better. There are some cheap and very effect cables such as the 3M Vandersils CAT8 or Ibra CAT7. Cheap experiment and has to be heard to believe it.
   The DUAL CAT involves doing some DIY on a PoE distribution box to use all eight CAT wires, and then use one cable for +ve and one for -ve.
   This had a moderate positive effect.
5. Digital Cabling
   I have fought against cable foo for an age, but gave up a few years ago as I couldn't ignore the evidence of my own ears. Many cables are just different, better is another matter.
   In terms of USB I have found a cable that is just all round better to be the IFI Audio Mercury 3.0.
   A friend came around with a Cut Loose SPDIF. This is the cable that Audionote sells as the Black Pallas for large amounts of money. It is extruded silver coated in Palladium and constructed as a ribbon. In my system it had a superb effect ....but, at £2k I don't think so. I found a similar type of cable on ebay for £100, the Nimak Pulsar Mk 2. Not quiet as good but very nice, and not the  rip off I feared it might be.
6. Where to put the BEST power supply
   I played with this a lot. Ultimately I found the best place to be the last hop before my DAC, which in my case is the SingXer-F1. It needs 5V 0.5A. It is being powered by a a 6A 8V R-Core LPSU via DUAL CAT PoE into a 5V 1A LT3045; currently using 3M Vandersils CAT8 which I am testing in place of my usual CAT7 AQ Pearls. I will be also trying the AQ Cinnamon in due course.

Currently:

My ultraRendu is powered by an R-Core 6A LPSU via two 7V1 1A LT3045 via PoE Ibra CAT7 cables.

My SingXer F1 is powered by an R-Core 6A LPSU via Dual CAT Vandersils CAT8, one for +ve one for -ve using all the paired cables, via a 5V 1A LT3045; N.B. I block the power from the Iso Regen.

My Iso Regen is poweres by an R-Core 2A LPSU via 7V1 1A LT3045 > 5V 1A LT3045 via PoE Ibra CAT7 cables.

 

M

[mourip]

+1 for grounding, LPSU, 3045 regulators and I would also add isolation. These things will make good equipment show their potential.

 

...I would also add Duelund tinned copper interconnects and speaker wires.

[kyrill]

THX M

 

Nice to see how intelligently you found your way through the audiophile dense forest with as many guides as there are religions

THe Rcores + LT 3045 is one of my newest discoveries

I have 2 questions

The Nimak Pulsar Mk 2 how do you use it as a USB cable? You begin your paragraph with " In terms of USB I have found a cable ..."  Have you compared it with the Curious and or "Lush" usb cable?

2) The modified Ghent 360 JSSG DC cable have you compared that one against PoE?

 

And again thx for the detailed last post

[MrUnderhill]

Hi Kyrill,

 

My poor choice of words. The USB cable is the IFI Audio Mercury 3.0.

 

I use the Nimak between my SingXer-F1 & my Audionote DAC. This is not quiet as good as the Cut Loose cable, which is also sold as the Audionote Black Pallas, but it is £1,900 cheaper!

 

M