A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming

[Bricki]

8 minutes ago, Em2016 said:

 

I've had the Mojo. In my experiences (not expertise), it's USB input is much more sensitive to upstream changes than say, it's bigger brother the Hugo2...

 

With Hugo2, Rob Watts added a lot of focus on RF filtering on the USB input, something which Mojo only has on it's power (microUSB) input, not on the USB (data) input... and it helped a lot...

 

Hugo2 is a little more sensitive to upstream changes than it's biggest brother, Dave... and Dave is not insensitive to upstream changes as romaz and others will tell you too...

 

Mojo to Hugo2 is a big improvement though (to my ears).

 

All the above is to my ears and experiences, not any expertise... and only talking about USB input...

 

 

Interesting, I didn't know about the extra filtering on the Hugo 2 usb. 

 

Unfortunately, the Hugo 2, for me, is well outside my budget. Here in Australia it is AU$3,700... For sure I would get one if I could. For now I will have to be content with spending smaller amounts on other improvements... My pennies are being saved for the EtherRegen and hopefully it will fall within my affordable range ?

[Bricki]

3 hours ago, ray-dude said:

 

Rajiv will of course speak to his opinion, but I've seen astronomical improvement by up leveling DACs.  It may be heretical, but my view is that everything before the analog chain (I include DAC in the analog chain) takes away SQ.   For me, all the work on the digital/network side is about taking away as little as possible.

 

By way of example, I documented my journey up the DAC (and transducer) ladders here:

 

https://www.head-fi.org/showcase/chord-hugo-2.22209/reviews#review-19435

https://www.head-fi.org/showcase/chord-blu-mk-ii-digital-cd-transport.22848/reviews#review-19675

 

(as a bonus, this documented my journey from Mojo to Hugo2 to DAVE to BluDAVE, related to question earlier about whether an update from Mojo is worthwhile)

 

 

 

I don't think that's heretical ?. 

 

I totally agree with you. I see the dac as an incredibly high precision instrument that is the heart of where the music is made ?... Because it is so high precision its performance will be decided to some degree by the signal that it is fed. A high quality, low noise, precision timed electrical signal going into a dac makes for a better performing dac. 

 

I think we are on the same page... ?

 

[Bricki]

20 minutes ago, look&listen said:

Sorry, music only made inside human head. All else is sound or signal.

Otherwise agree.

Yeah, I lost my literary way there ?

 

Perhaps I should have said "heart of where the sound is recreated" ?

[Bricki]

1 hour ago, lmitche said:

I tried Roon upsampling at every resolution and bit perfect just sounds best.

I agree. Previously with my sMS-200 I was upsampling to dsd256 in roon. Now with the NUC/AL bit perfect is definitely better. I was surprised with this result but it's good to know I'm not on my own here. ?

[Bricki]

23 minutes ago, flkin said:

I am converting my SonicTransporter i5 into an AudioLinux Roon endpoint to see how that compares with my all in one streamer under AL. I didn't have much success with the STi5 with the original SonicOrbitor OS which was clearly worse. 

@Kritpoon

I converted my sonicTransporter i5 into an AudioLinux Roon server and it sounds much much better. 

 

Don't forget to disable hyperthreading, Intel speedstep and turbo boost in the bios... Also removing the ssd is very worthwhile. 

[Bricki]

7 minutes ago, flkin said:

Will do, thanks for the suggestion.

 

Did you ever try it as an Roon endpoint rather than a file server? As a file server, where did you keep the music?

I haven't tried it as a roon endpoint. I have the NUC7CJYH as roon endpoint. I got rid of all disks and I'm just using tidal at the moment. If you use audiolinux lxqt then it should mount a usb disk automatically and I think Piero is working on an easier way for mounting disks in headless. 

[Bricki]

3 hours ago, gsquared said:

 

Okay, thanks for the tip! I will inquire about this on the other thread

 

I found that hyperthreading and turbo disabled sounded better on my audiolinux roon server 

[Bricki]

Quick comparison 

 

SMS-200 v0.4.5 vs NUC7CJYH AL/Extreme2/ramroot 

 

I have done a direct comparison of these 2 keeping everything the same except for a 2.1mm to 2.5 mm DC adapter on the nuc. Same sps-500 psu for each. 

 

The NUC still has a more open sound to it as if there is more space and I think it still has a richer tone. I listened to a live track of Troy Caser-Daley where he introduces a song, his voice on the nuc is unmistakably better. It's more realistic and more natural ... It has more of a feel that his mic is plugged straight into my amp... When I listen to his voice on the sMS-200, by comparison it sounds compressed. 

 

However, the sMS-200 still has a feel to it of somehow being lower noise... On its own it sounds fantastic but then I put the nuc back in and I don't miss any of the areas that I felt the sMS-200 was better in. I felt it had a few strengths that are hard to explain... Slightly more delicate and kind of refined more/lower noise.

 

But once again, as soon as the nuc is back I don't miss any of that. The nuc opens up the sound and has a less compressed and more realistic presentation...it feels more like the vocals and instruments are plugged straight into the amp and there is a feeling of ease. 

 

This is the non ultra sms200 on the latest firmware with a SanDisk Extreme PRO A2 sd card. The server is the same for both. It's a sonicTransporter i5 running headless audiolinux 0.8 in ramroot extreme 2. 

 

[Bricki]

6 minutes ago, HeeBroG said:

@Bricki

Thanks for your impressions. Just checking if your sMS-200 has the Neo upgrade?

 

G

Nah. No Neo upgrade. No ultra. ?

[Bricki]

5 hours ago, bobfa said:

I have moved a bit further along in my testing.  I have shrunk the test bed down to be more mobile with a small HDMI display if I need it.  I am still using the NUC7i7BNH test bed.   I have removed both of the SSDs.  I turned off the SATA, M2, Bluetooth, WiFi, TurboBoost in the BIOS.

 

I have a funny little 60hz buzz in the system right now that goes away if I put my hand on the NUC or the Mojo.  Sort of annoying but this is a test....   

 

I have skipped a couple of floors up on the sound quality stairway.  I have two words that describe what I am hearing:  Smooth Detail.  Over the next couple of days I am going to setup the NUC so that I can swap between the Ultrarendu in my listening system.  

 

Off to family stuff....

 

Bob

 

 

Don't forget to turn off hyperthreading and speed step as well 😁

[Bricki]

7 hours ago, austinpop said:

 

 

Hmm, I've now tried this on several DACs in my stable, and I've got to say I don't hear this. I found the Fixed, Device, and DSP volume settings, and I am hard pressed to hear any difference. I guess it IS YMMV.

I've just tried this as well and I think I'm hearing a very subtle difference if any... In my system I have preferred no DSP and no upsampling ever since moving to Audiolinux on server and endpoint... previously with sonicorbitor and my sms200 I was preferring dsd upsampling.

 

There seems to be many different things that can effect these preferences for different settings so it's definitely not a one size fits all situation.

 

Happy listening everybody 🔊😁

[Bricki]

Audiolinux isolated CPU cores listening impressions

 

I have got the isolated CPU core function working on my roon server with 5200u CPU and 8 GB of RAM in ramroot. I also have the isolated CPU core function working on my NUC7CJYH running roon bridge with 4 GB of RAM in ramroot. The nuc is also network bridge to the server.

 

The isolated CPU core function brings a clearer sound. Background details in music are more easily discerned. Electric guitar sounds less glassy and digital and more natural and real. Individual sounds are not as flat and they have more of a 3 dimensional presence. In the live version of dire straits"you and your friend" the crowd at the beginning of the track creates a real concert atmosphere and individual crowd members can be heard in the distance. Before the CPU core isolation the crowd had less individual sounds and came across as more of a whole sound.

 

I am very pleased with the increase in SQ it has come as quite a surprise.

 

I highly recommend other NUC/AL owners give it a try 👍🔊😎

[Bricki]

2 hours ago, austinpop said:

 

Thanks, Bricki!

 

Did you play with the various isolation options? And is what you described above with the "all but one" option?

G'day Rajiv

 

The only option I selected both times when prompted about the core division is the "half" option. Both my CPUs only have 2 physical cores. It will be interesting to see what people with more than 2 physical cores find is the best sounding option👍

[Bricki]

1 hour ago, austinpop said:

 

Oops my bad - you has already indicated your machines were dual core. Not much choice there!

No worries 😊

 

Also, just to add further context to my listening impressions. The division of cores is only for physical cores (not including virtual cores). My 5200u has hyperthreading which allows 2 virtual cores in addition to the 2 physical cores. With hyperthreading turned off there is an increase in SQ, the division of the cores is a further increase in addition to having hyperthreading disabled. 

 

I hope this helps others 🤓

 

[Bricki]

1 hour ago, Poldi said:

Thanks all of you for this helpful input!

 

Then I'll try to stick to one of the models mentioned for the endpoint.

 

And regarding server: As my server will also be standing in the living room I don't want to have a fan spinning if I can avoid it. And it would be easier to get a fanless case for a 10W or 15W TDP NUC and I would avoid thermal throttling.

 

In that case the NUC7i7DNBE would seem suitable. But is it strong enough for room correction? I haven't tried this so far but would like to do so in the future. Also it only has one ethernet port so bridging won't be possible. Hm... after reading the reports about bridging, I wouldn't want to miss it really.

Bridging is possible... just use a USB to Ethernet adapter

[Bricki]

On 3/27/2019 at 4:25 AM, austinpop said:

SR4-12V vs. sPS-500-19V on the NUC i7:

•  That 19V sure helps dynamics, even though the SR-4 is cleaner and less harsh. Still, powering the NUC i7 with an sPS-500-19 sounds very good, and allowed me to free up the SR4. So, where to put this newly freed SR4 - the switch or the JCAT card?

 

G'day Rajiv

 

Thanks for another excellent write up and of course thanks to @romaz for the amazing post that I have spent the last several days reading over several times 😁

 

Just thought I would jump in here to let you know that I have recently tried the JSGT trick on the sps500 and even though the DC output is reportedly already connected internally to ac ground there is a very worthwhile reduction in harshness.

 

The easiest way I find is to get some old speaker cable (I'm using 14AWG OFC) and make a little "y" shape at one to wrap around the DC plug....then twist the "y" shape together around the DC plug and it will tighten right up... then run that to ac ground 😁

 

I am also using a furutech TCS 21 power cord and good vibration control on the sps500 ac plug and chassis.

 

They won't make it sound like an SR7 🤣 ....but they are worthwhile improvements 😁

 

[Bricki]

Also I should add to my last post (but it's too late to edit) that there seems to be further improvement by using thicker or multiple cables to ground....for example if you're using a gs105 with the JSGT trick then make sure u are using at least a good quality 14awg cable for ground and preferably a couple...I find there's improvements across the frequency range ...bigger soundstage, tighter bass, more dynamic and better tone.

[Bricki]

3 hours ago, austinpop said:

 

Please try it and tell us what you find.

 

 

If the endpoint is connected directly to the server, with no intervening switch, then yes, it will auto-negotiate.

G'day Rajiv

 

How can we reduce our network speeds to 100mbps on Audiolinux?

Sorry for the dim question 🙄. I'm not a Linux native 😁

 

I have my server and endpoint bridged.

 

Thanks

Brendan

 

[Bricki]

25 minutes ago, Dev said:

With Ethernet interfaces, you can use ethtool utility in Linux. However, AL doesn't have this package by default. So you have to download it using pacman or yaourt

For example to set link speed to 100mbps on eno1 interface,

 

ethtool -s eno1 speed 100 duplex full autoneg off

 

Ok thanks for this 👍

[Bricki]

Ok I have changed down to 100Mb/s on my server for the connection to my endpoint and I can hear an improvement already... quite a nice improvement, a lot less subtle than I was expecting...next I will change the speed for my connection from server back to router.

Thanks to @Dev for the info 😁👍

[Bricki]

Has anyone tried reducing USB transfer speeds with similar effect?

 

For example if we reduce our USB transfer speeds for music storage on our server, perhaps there could be some gains there.

 

I assume this is possible somehow in Linux but I wouldn't know where to begin 🤣.

 

USB 3.0 controllers do seem to have better signal integrity and sound better but if we can reduce their speed back to USB 2.0 there might be some further SQ gains.

 

Just a thought

[Bricki]

Listening impressions

 

SMS-200 (latest 4.6 update) vs Celeron NUC7 (audiolinux)

The software for both of these has changed considerably since I last did this comparison, so I thought it was worth a revisit. Both are powered by an sps500 with JSSG360 DC cable and furutech TCS21 ac cable. Ethernet connection to the server is bridged and running in half duplex mode at 10mbps. With a 1 meter Supra cat8 with JSSG360.

The SMS-200

This is the original sms-200 non ultra with no neo upgrade

 

Pros: 

-has a blacker background with more focused images.

-has a slightly more refined or lower noise feel about the presentation

-has a bit more depth to the soundstage

Cons:

-despite the more focused image outlines the image itself somehow seems flatter and digitally smeared. I know this sounds like a contradiction, but it's like a nicely focused caricature vs the NUC that is a slightly out of focus but more natural image of the original recording.

-less dynamic

-has a flatter less colourful tone

-has smaller images

-although it has more depth to the soundstage it feels smaller with less width

 

The NUC

The NUC is in an akasa fanless case running the latest audiolinux headless mini 140 with the 5.2 BFQ kernel in ramroot with isolated cores and acpi CPU scaling driver.

Pros:

-has a much more natural sound

-has larger images and soundstage

-piano, guitar and brass instruments sound much more like the real thing with less digital smearing and a more analogue sound. Live recordings are particularly good with a feeling as if the output from the sound desk is plugged into my amp.

-has a more colourful tone that makes everything seem more alive.

-makes me want to listen to music more and not change tracks but listen to a whole album

-more captivating

-more dynamic

-lyrics are more easily discerned

Cons:

-the background seems slightly more gray and less black

-the images aren't quite as focused in their outlines

-doesn't sound quite as refined in the presentation

Final thoughts

Although the software on both devices has changed for the better, the NUC is still the better sounding of the 2 in my system. It gets deeper into recordings and lets you hear things you didn't even know were there. It makes me wish I had more financial resources to get more powerful hardware 😁👍

[Bricki]

11 hours ago, Blackmorec said:

Nice summary. I’m not a big fan of the sPS-500 as I think its sonic footprint is not amongst the best or least intrusive. If this were my system I’d tend to sell some of the hardware and look for a superior power supply. When you get to the level your at, things like power supplies have quite a major impact on the overall flavour and character of the sound...differences that are quite fundamental to believability and not just cosmetics. 

I wholeheartedly agree with you about the importance of good power supplies. The only surplus equipment I have is my SMS-200. If I get a new PSU (I have my eyes on the farad super 3) then my sps500 will go to my router. I can only afford one new piece of equipment in the next 12 months so I am carefully considering my next move😁.

Options high on the list are:

-farad super 3

-lps1.2

-Etheregen

-CSS P215 kit speaker

-mini itx build

-more furutech goodies😁

[Bricki]

8 hours ago, Aberrant-Decoder said:

Is the nuc your end point or server or both ?

The NUC is my roon endpoint. The SMS-200 was in roon ready mode 👍

[Bricki]

7 hours ago, elan120 said:

The base of this cable is a double shielded Neotech 16AWG solid core silver cable purchased from Audio Sensibility in a twisted pair configuration.  I first setup the cable in JSSG360 configuration with the double shield, and then added the third layer to make it JSSG360^3.

Did you purchase the cable as bulk or pre terminated? I assume you altered the existing sheilds to JSSG360 configuration before adding your 3rd layer?