A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming

[bodiebill]

6 hours ago, lmitche said:

The 4 USB gen 2 ports on the Startech card discussed above is two cards on one board, giving you two pair of USB 3 gen 2 ports from the Asmedia chips.

 

I ordered this, just to try:

https://nl.aliexpress.com/item/4000903740696.html?spm=a2g0s.9042311.0.0.7c614c4dDdTQN2

[bodiebill]

Trying to simplify my setup and minimize the number (and maximize the quality) of linear power for my single PC with wtfplay, I am now making good use of the dual HDPlex 800W:

 

Paul Hynes SR4-19 => HDPlex 800W DC-ATX group 1 => motherboard + 12V EPS/CPU

Keces P8 dual rail 20V  => HDPlex 800W DC-ATX group 2 => 12V usb HDD + 5V Elfidelity usb card

Keces P8 dual rail 9V => LDOVR DXP-1A5DSC 7.1V => ISO Regen

 

That is, I started using the second group of the HDPlex to get multiple voltages (motherboard, CPU, HDD and usb card) from my best LPS's.

 

Happy with the result re SQ.

 

[bodiebill]

For many no option I guess, but I am now enjoying the best thinkable network topology with no network devices or -connections having an adverse effect on SQ: namely no network at all.

 

I tried many things in order to eliminate the nasty effects of network activity on the sound. RJ-45, fiber, JCAT net card FEMTO, MikroTik and Cisco SFP routers, LPS's to match, and the SQ got better and better. Converging to the SQ that can only be had by... no network at all.

 

I did try this before, over a year ago, but then I had a DAC (Lampizator) that made DSD sound much better than PCM, and upsampling to DSD256 with HQPe/EC was the best achievable. This for me required a network.

 

Now I have a DAC (Denafrips) with glorious PCM and I no longer feel the need to convert/upsample to DSD256. And wtfplay is an gorgeous player for PCM that eliminates all frills and totally concentrates on SQ. In spite of many requests the author of wtfplay has not added remote control via network to his player, and I can understand why. It would lower the SQ.

 

Controlling wtfplay with a tiny keyboard with trackpad and a monitor (a tv) is actually quite easy and user friendly. You can even create a playlist and then play it from the command line, with no need for a GUI. 

  

I could have spared myself a lot of cost (including that for the LPSU's) and much trouble, but it was fun to do. And I may occasionally go back to a network setup for convenience. But the SQ I am now hearing is hard to resist and forgo.

[bodiebill]

32 minutes ago, Peter Avgeris said:

[...] splitting the server and playback services in different pcs is a move you can't go backwards.

 

Quote

A fine tune (not to the max) of a two pc setup can't compete against a single pc setup. Not a chance. 

 

Hi pavgeris. If I understand well you always prefer a 2 box setup (with network) to a one box setup? I am asking as the second sentence seems to say the opposite.

 

I did not mean to be categorical and remain open to different topologies, but reported the change in SQ between my previous complex 2 box setup and the new 1 box setup.

I did wonder about the effect of the hdmi and keyboard, compared to that of a NIC (and everything behind it).

 

Hard to identify the key reason for the 1 box setup to sound better (to my ears), as so many things are different, including the SW. But given that it does and that so many devices can be removed, makes me prefer it for now. 

 

 

[bodiebill]

6 hours ago, Peter Avgeris said:

Very easy! 

Fine tune everything and after you have finished by being able to fully control remotely, take off the vga adapter or alternatively, switch it off through the bios or jumpers. You can't go backwards. It is beyond logic to upgrade all your stuff and leave vga working! 

 

Does the same as VGA apply to HDMI?

[bodiebill]

Actually it is possible to play whole tracks removing

(1) wtfplay usb stick (wtfplay OS is completely run from RAM)

(2) music usb hdd (wtplay loads complete individual tracks into memory)

(3) hdmi connection to monitor

(4) usb dongle for remote mini keyboard

 

(2) is of course less practical as it requires plugging in and out the hdd with the music between separate tracks.

(3) and (4) are less cumbersome as it can be done for each complete playlist (instead of per track).

 

@darkfrank

I think you are right about the remote keyboard going to sleep: mine turns off its light after about a minute.

 

In any case, the effect on SQ of all these permutations is easy to check, and I will do so when I find the time.

[bodiebill]

deleted as I hit quote instead of edit 😐

[bodiebill]

7 hours ago, seeteeyou said:

 

While we're aware that WTFplay couldn't support any network connections yet and having an active network adapter might also affect the SQ to a certain extent, wouldn't it be nice to take advantage of Intel AMT instead since it's always on once we've got that enabled on specific motherboards?

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_AMT_versions

 

Basically we just need to get any NUC models listed below or simply take a look at the list linked above, we could simply get any motherboards with one of those "C" / "Q" / "W" series chipsets as well as Intel Core / Xeon processors that are eligible for vPro Platform

 

https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/support/articles/000031997/intel-nuc.html

 

We could actually mount an ISO image remotely and then network boot was working just fine as shown below

 

 

Radmin

https://support.radmin.com/index.php?/Knowledgebase/Article/View/9/9/How-to-set-up-Intel-AMT-features

 

Remote Desktop Manager

https://blog.devolutions.net/2016/12/intel-amt-on-rdm-for-mac-ios-android

 

VNC Viewer Plus

https://www.realvnc.com/en/connect/_downloads/VNC_Viewer_Plus_User_Guide.pdf#page=41

 

Intel AMT / vPro KVM without proprietary RealVNC Viewer Plus

https://www.scivision.dev/intel-amt-vpro-full-remote-kvm-control-without-proprietary-realvnc-viewer-plus/

 

MeshCmd, also called “MeshCommand” is a open source command line tool that runs on both Windows and Linux and used to perform many tasks related to computer management.

https://www.meshcommander.com/meshcommander/meshcmd

https://meshcentral2.blogspot.com/2018/11/meshcmd-new-intel-amt-command-line-tool.html

 

How to install wsmancli/wsman on Linux to access KVM

https://www.cyberciti.biz/faq/remotely-access-intel-amt-kvm-linux-desktop/

 

No need for monitors / keyboards/ USB sticks, get the playlist loaded and then we could even unplug the Ethernet cable afterwards.

 

Most likely there will be some BIOS options to allow booting without any monitors attached, otherwise it's also quite easy to find a dummy plug like this

 

https://www.amazon.com/CompuLab-fit-Headless-Display-Emulator/dp/B00FLZXGJ6

 

---

 

And then it's also interesting to experiment with getting past POST successfully without an integrated / external GPU whatsoever, not sure if there were any Xeon motherboards that could offer BIOS settings for such setup. We're getting vPro configured properly by connecting a monitor to the PCI-e display card first, then we'll change certain BIOS settings and remove that display card accordingly.

 

While all Intel Core processors with an "F" suffix (i.e. graphics-disabled parts) aren't any good for vPro at all, some Xeon processors and motherboards turned out to be fine with vPro and they didn't come with any integrated graphics to begin with

 

https://en.wikichip.org/wiki/intel/xeon_e3/e3-1240l_v5

 

However, definitely RTFM and make sure that BMC (baseboard management controller) from ASPEED etc. wasn't built right in

 

https://www.aspeedtech.com/support.php

 

For instance, P10S-M-WS/IPMI-O on the left (with an extra line 1 x Aspeed VGA header) should be different from P10S-M-WS on the right

 

https://dlcdnets.asus.com/pub/ASUS/mb/socket1151/P10S-M_WS/Manual/E13681_P10S-M_WS_Series_UM_V4_WEB.pdf#page=11

 

Also take a look at the block diagram and pay attention to the chipset, it must be C236 or else no love for vPro

 

https://dlcdnets.asus.com/pub/ASUS/mb/socket1151/P10S-M_WS/Manual/E13681_P10S-M_WS_Series_UM_V4_WEB.pdf#page=140

 

There's another similar model P10S-M (without WS) from Asus and that particular one actually came with C232 without vPro

 

https://www.asus.com/Motherboards/P10S-M/specifications/

 

---

 

For a much faster processor that could still be passively cooled, stuff like E-2224 should do the trick without breaking the bank

 

https://www.provantage.com/intel-bx80684e2224~7ITEP6L7.htm

https://en.wikichip.org/wiki/intel/xeon_e/e-2224

 

The motherboard looked somewhat tricky again, we definitely want that cheaper WS C246M PRO without ASPEED AST2500 BMC

 

https://dlcdnets.asus.com/pub/ASUS/mb/socket1151/WS-C246M-PRO/Manual/E15306_WS_C246M_PRO_UM_V4_WEB.pdf#page=115

 

WS C246M PRO for $226 (without ASPEED AST2500 BMC)

 

https://www.amazon.com/Workstation-Motherboard-Motherboards-C246M-PRO/dp/B07H8KTG8G

 

WS C246M PRO/SE for $311

 

https://www.amazon.com/WS-C246M-PRO-SE-Motherboard/dp/B07Y66185T

 

---

 

A 100% headless system might sound even better, both DAC and external storage could be connected to JCAT USB Card XE simultaneously via the same CPU-direct PCI-e slot. Of course we've gotta contact the manufacturer first in order to confirm which motherboard model(s) could handle POST without a display card.

 

The networking components are only exposed to the BIOS / Intel Management Engine firmware level, therefore WTFplay shouldn't be affected as long as we're disconnecting the Ethernet cable.

 

Wow, looks pretty complex to me. I think I will continue with networkless wtfplay and unplug the monitor and remote keyboard for really serious listening.

 

Are their settings in the BIOS to minimize the effect of an attached monitor on SQ?

[bodiebill]

On 5/20/2020 at 11:57 PM, bodiebill said:

Trying to simplify my setup and minimize the number (and maximize the quality) of linear power for my single PC with wtfplay, I am now making good use of the dual HDPlex 800W:

 

Paul Hynes SR4-19 => HDPlex 800W DC-ATX group 1 => motherboard + 12V EPS/CPU

Keces P8 dual rail 20V  => HDPlex 800W DC-ATX group 2 => 12V usb HDD + 5V Elfidelity usb card

Keces P8 dual rail 9V => LDOVR DXP-1A5DSC 7.1V => ISO Regen

 

That is, I started using the second group of the HDPlex to get multiple voltages (motherboard, CPU, HDD and usb card) from my best LPS's.

 

Happy with the result re SQ.

 

Correction to the above:

 

I compared two ways to power the Elfidelity usb card:

 

(1) Keces P8 dual rail 9V  =>  MPAudio DLS-HPULN 7V => Chinese LT3045 5V => DIY Supra DC cable => Elfidelity

(2) Paul Hynes SR4 19V  => HDPlex 800W DC-ATX 5V => cheap DC cable => Elfidelity

 

and (1) is way superior. (2) sounds strident and fatiguing.

 

I know that the SR4 is a great PSU, so is the HDPlex messing things up? Hard to imagine it is just the cheap DC cable...

 

 

[bodiebill]

Just now, lmitche said:

What else is being powered by the Hdplex 800 DC to DC-ATX?

 

- SR4 19V => HDPlex group 1 => various motherboard + 12V EPS/CPU

- Keces P8 20V => HDPlex group 2 => 12V external usb HDD

[bodiebill]

The Keces is double rail. Actually 20V/19V + 12V/9V + usb 5V.

What you suggest could also be done with a double rail Keces I guess.

I did try the Keces on group 1 (mobo + CPU), but I prefer the SR4 there.

[bodiebill]

4 minutes ago, lmitche said:

It's no surprise this one is a winner. The Lt3045s are doing their job.

 

Multiple parallel and serial Lt 3045 chains here improve SQ from both SR4 and LPS1.2 DC outputs. I have them on every device that consumes 3 amps or less..

 

more precise: that consumes 3 amps or less and settles for 15VDC or less 🙂

[bodiebill]

1 hour ago, Exocer said:

Not to change the current topic but I have compared the following to setups with GentooPlayer OS:

 

Option A:

1. USB: Startech PCI-E USB-C card -  https://www.startech.com/Cards-Adapters/USB-3.0/Cards/2-port-pcie-usb3-1-card~PEXUSB312C3
2. Cable : AudioQuest Forest USB-C to B cable
3. NIC : StarTech USB 3.0 Gigabit Nic with Realtek Chipset

 

Option B:

1. USB: Motherboard USB 3.1 Gen 1 to Elfidelity USB Filter
2. Cable : Schiit Pyst
3. NIC: Motherboard input (through PCH)

 

I believe it is too early to tell which one is better but Option A is providing better imaging, larger soundstage and an overall "cleaner" presentation with some leanness compared to option B. Both sound great so far... I will give the card some time to break in but I do think Option A will likely be what I stick with until curiosity sets in.

 

Now, @bodiebill feeds his USB cards with proper LPSU power, so it is possible I have yet to scratch the surface of each card's capabilities.

 

Note: I am feeding both cards via generic cable from HDPlex 400W DC-ATX adapter. A better DC cable is on order, so is LPSU power for the server.

 

Note2: In order to get this USB NIC to work with GentooPlayer, I had to switch to the PF-ST kernel. Otherwise, the NIC went undetected. I did not check if it was the PCI-E card that wasn't detected or the NIC itself.

 

Cheers

 

Interesting. Although hard to pinpoint which device does what as USB cards, cables as well as NIC's are different between both options.

 

And indeed I much preferred external LPSU power (with LT3045 cleansing) to the HDPlex 800W DC-ATX (even when fed by an SR4) for powering the Elfidelity.

 

And soon, I hope, my ASMedia ASM3142 10Gbps USB card will arrive so I can do a similar comparison.

[bodiebill]

5 hours ago, Nenon said:

It was very random, and I did not have the patience to keep testing and get to the bottom of it.

 

Great write up, thanks. I think it shows a lot of patience 🙂

If the benefits for SQ are dubious, the cable could still be useful to remove a noisy device such as a HD or RAID box from the listening room?

[bodiebill]

USB to ethernet converters exist for networking. I wonder whether something similar exists to transport USB signals over ethernet. If yes, this would open up the option of using fiber/SFP for USB. Not technical savvy so I could be totally wrong.

[bodiebill]

58 minutes ago, lmitche said:

Good idea.

 

With two Monoprice USB Slimruns here, SQ has taken another jump. I don't use them for the USB DAC connection. Instead they connect a 3.5 inch HDD in a USB 3.0 enclosure and a Tplink USB 3.0  NIC to two CPU direct USB3 ports on my server. It is a tight fit. My two are each powered with a dual serial LT3045 chain of 1 amp regulators.

 

On well known tracks I'm hearing more detail, openness, clarity and depth. Image density has increased again. I've had to lower the volume by 2 db. LOL. The Monoprice cables deliver.

 

Tomorrow, more experiments on power options.

 

Larry

 

Good to hear. I ordered this to try:

https://nl.aliexpress.com/item/32999206380.html?spm=a2g0s.9042311.0.0.28de4c4dCxYihu

Not for my DAC but for my rather noisy RAID box with two 2.5" HDD's which will then live in the fuse box.

[bodiebill]

15 hours ago, lmitche said:

That's the same idea as the Monoprice Slimrun USB.  Is there an input for external power? I can't find one.

 

Larry

 

No there is not.

I decided I do not need this as I will only use it for my HDD which will reside in the fuse box to be powered by a 5V battery pack. I can even turn that off / detach that, when playing.

I will not use the cable for my DAC so I figured I do not need VBUS power.

[bodiebill]

On 5/31/2020 at 4:19 AM, lmitche said:

With some effort, external linear power supplies and fiber, one can make a USB hard disk sound practically as good as a NVME Optane drive for music playback.

 

Made curious by this thread (thanks, @Imitche and @Nenon) I just compared the following in my 1-box network-less wtfplay setup:

 

(1) external 4TB usb 2.5" hdd with 5V battery power, connected while playing

(2) same as (1) but disconnected while playing

(3) 16GB optane nvme drive

 

Knowing that wtfplay copies each track to RAM and plays it from there, I went back between (2) and (3) many times, reluctant to believe that they would be different. And indeed they are very very close. But I still think I slightly prefer (3), if not for convenience, for SQ. If not my imagination, what else could that be?

 

(1) is also not far behind, but this could partly be due to the slight high noise the hdd produces.

I do not rule out that (1) will equal (2) when the hdd is removed to the fuse box and connected with the 15m fiber-usb cable. We will see...

[bodiebill]

Today I DIY'ed some Mundorf Silver/Gold 15.5awg DC cables following Nenon's recipe, including JSSG360. I use them as follows:

• SR4 ------> HDPlex 800W (19V)
• HDPlex 800W ------> EPS/CPU (12V)
• LT3045 ------> Elfidelity AXF-100 usb card (5V)

In order to keep the cables short, I moved the HDPlex from inside to outside of the Streacom case, on top of the SR4: see pic. The result is immediate: more presence and detail. But I find it a bit too forward, too strident. I will give them some days to see whether breaking in will improve things...

 

 

 

[bodiebill]

And while at it, also

LDOVR DXP-1A5DSC ------> ISO Regen (input 9V, output 7.1V)

This one without JSSG360.

🙂

[bodiebill]

On 6/14/2020 at 8:35 AM, AnotherSpin said:

 

I like the look of this project. Even if it doesn't sound delightful, it looks very impressive.

 

And I must admit, it does not sound delightful at all. I lost my smooth mellow sound. Given the alleged long burn-in time for the Mundorf wires, I will have to be patient... If it does not improve in more than a week, I may consider removing the JSSG360 shielding.

[bodiebill]

53 minutes ago, Blackmorec said:

How many things did you change? Just the Mundorf cables or did you also relocate the HDPlex at the same time?

 

I changed the position of the HDPlex 800W DC-ATX at the same time.

 

In order to forgo an extra connector the cable from the SR4 goes directly into the 6-pin HDPlex DC-in (group 1).

As a result I cannot completely close the Streacom case.

 

Also, I fastened the LT3045 battery LPS (here seen on old pic) within the Streacom case, where the HDPlex was previously. This powers the Elfidelity card with 5V.

 

Do you think any of this can influence the sound?

[bodiebill]

1 hour ago, Blackmorec said:

Hi there,

I recently implemented 4 of Nenon’s Mundorf Silver/Gold cables and while they do need running in, they did improve the SQ pretty much immediately and harshness certainly wasn’t one of their characteristics, at least not in my system. 

 

I’ve never tried making the changes you list but I would ‘suspect’ that something like harshness could come from placing the HDPlex directly on top of a power supply, with its intrinsic vibration and transformer electrical field.

 

Certainly before altering the cable you made i would first try relocating the HDPlex                           

 

The cables also need longer than a week so if the need to run in is the cause of the harshness, its going to need maybe 3 weeks to fully resolve

 

Thanks Blackmorec. The HDPlex is not on top of the Streacom case but next to it, on top of the SR4 (with bluetack between and vibrapods under the SR4). You can see it in a pic earlier in this thread.

I will not judge to soon, but will also keep @Peter Avgeris findings in mind...

[bodiebill]

1 hour ago, Blackmorec said:

Hi there,

My first recommendation would be to try everything without the vibrapods and blu tack. Vibrapods will isolate the SR4 and lock in its vibrations, while the Blu Tack will couple the HDPlex to the SR4’s vibrations.

My second recommendation would be to remove the HDPLex from atop the SR4 because, as I stated in my previous 2 messages, the HDPLex will be plumb in the middle of the SR4 transformer’s electrical field.

Finally, the JSSG360 screening is designed to prevent the cable from picking up radiated EMI and RFI while the HDPlex in its current position is completely unprotected. Personally I would place the HDPLex back in the Streacom cabinet, where it enjoys a degree of protection and isolation from the SR4’s vibration  

 

Thanks, appreciated! I will change the positioning of the devices and report back.

 

  

2 hours ago, Nenon said:

 

@bodiebill is the first person reporting negative effect of this cable. If I recall correctly (sorry, did not go back to search and double check), @bodiebill was open minded on a few other findings by me and the community here related to power supplies, operating systems, one server vs. two, etc. And if my memory serves me right, he did not like any of my recommendations about Euphony, power supplies placement, etc. But that's a good data point anyway. 

 

hi Nenon, I was not aware of any bias with respect to your recommendations other than positive. Or I would not have DIY'ed your expensive and labor intensive Mundorf recipe. And I am still far from a final judgment. I will give it ample time (3 weeks), and follow @Blackmorec's recommendations. I don't see myself as a very technical person, but rather as a clumsy person with good ears, who will continue to follow your experiments with great interest.

 

Quote

BTW, from the pictures I've seen, @bodiebill - you are using some cheap solderless screw-on DC connectors. This expensive Mundorf silver/gold deserves some good Oyaide connectors.

 

The only solderless connection is that to the Chinese LT3045 battery device that powers the usb card. For that I see no other way (given my reluctance to tamper with the device). The other connections are soldered, on the SR4 end to a good quality Neutrik XLR plug, and for the HDPlex and motherboard to the mandatory 6 pin DC input connector resp. the 2 (or 4) pin ESP/CPU connector. I do not see how I could apply Oyaide DC connectors here other than adding to the problem.

[bodiebill]

On 6/15/2020 at 11:07 AM, bodiebill said:

 

And I must admit, it does not sound delightful at all. I lost my smooth mellow sound. Given the alleged long burn-in time for the Mundorf wires, I will have to be patient... If it does not improve in more than a week, I may consider removing the JSSG360 shielding.

 

The Mundorf silver/gold DC wires have now been burning in for about a week (much less than the 500 hours that some say they need), but I am pleased to report that I now listen to them with great pleasure. The stridency is gone and the holographic imaging is back. If my memory serves me well they already improve on the previous (Supra CAT8 with JSSG360) DC cables.

Worth it!

🙂