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A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming


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Most important: please realize this thread is about bleeding edge experimentation and discovery. No one has The Answer™. If you are not into tweaking, just know that you can have a musically satisfying system without doing any of the nutty things we do here.

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1 hour ago, LTG2010 said:

I thought it was a PCIE USB card if its a reclocking board, most of you have the tx-USB Ultra.(Maybe Nuno means one and the same) The most benefit to the Zenith SE would be to fit a quality PCIE USB output, with OCXO clock. There's no space unless the top is taken off to mount it vertically, or some sort of riser cable could be used.

Nuno has said it's an external device like the tX-USBultra (but internal on the Statement).  It is not a PCIe USB card.

 

He said 'We are doing a full USB reclocker which includes our USB card as well as two linear power supplies of the same grade as the Statement's already in the chassis.  We plan to release a separate box with our USB board with OCXO and power supplies that would take the SE closer to a Statement level'.

Pareto Audio AMD 7700 Server --> Berkeley Alpha USB --> Jeff Rowland Aeris --> Jeff Rowland 625 S2 --> Focal Utopia 3 Diablos with 2 x Focal Electra SW 1000 BE subs

 

i7-6700K/Windows 10  --> EVGA Nu Audio Card --> Focal CMS50's 

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17 hours ago, str-1 said:

With what you heard from the Zenith Statement and given your experience with the tX-U+Ref10, can you imagine the regenerator/clock combo further elevating the Statement by very much?

 

I can imagine all sorts of outcomes! We just need to compare:

  1. SE+tX+Ref10
  2. Statement
  3. Statement+tX+Ref10

and see where they fall in the SQ spectrum.

 

15 hours ago, BigAlMc said:

But then when you tally up the cost of a TX-USBUltra, a sCLK-OCX10, a decent PSU for each,, an AQVOX SE, another decent PSU, a 700 quid BNC cable and of course a handful of decent USB and LAN cables - well craperoo - I'm in the 14k ballpark and have spaghetti back on my plate. Shit!

 

Yes, I think this really depends on what you want. Having seen the um, "older gentleman with limited to no computer skills" demographic here at RMAF, :D I can see why the Statement would be very appealing.

 

Those of us who are more on the bleeding edge, and willing to experiment with new findings, are more than willing to endure the spaghetti. Something for everything.

 

15 hours ago, BigAlMc said:

I don't suppose you noticed what USB and LAN cables Nuno was using for their demo?

 

 

The room was using Anticables. But Mark Sossa told me they were using Black Cat cables for USB and Ethernet?

 

11 hours ago, rickca said:

Do we know anything about what clocks Innuos is using?  I'm starting to wonder whether the external USB device for the SE will ever see the light of day.

 

No, this is a good question for Nuno.

 

BTW - this morning I had a long chat with Nuno, and we delved into the whole in-memory kernel issue, along with the challenges of implementing the Roon to native player connection.

 

I am about to board a flight home, so will post a longer debrief about it tomorrow.

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On 10/4/2018 at 7:00 PM, rickca said:

Apple has already denied this story.

The U.S. Department of Homeland Security said over the weekend it has “no reason to doubt” statements from Apple Inc., Amazon.com Inc.’s AWS and Super Micro Computer Inc. and others denying that some of their servers were compromised by Chinese spy chips.

 

Well, the only thing I'm confident about is that given this is a potential national security issue we will never know the real story.  Everybody involved just puts their disinformation campaign in full gear and gets their message out to the media.  

 

Bloomberg stands by its reporting despite the vehement denials.  If there are any further developments, I'll start a new thread.

Pareto Audio AMD 7700 Server --> Berkeley Alpha USB --> Jeff Rowland Aeris --> Jeff Rowland 625 S2 --> Focal Utopia 3 Diablos with 2 x Focal Electra SW 1000 BE subs

 

i7-6700K/Windows 10  --> EVGA Nu Audio Card --> Focal CMS50's 

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1 hour ago, austinpop said:

Having seen the um, "older gentleman with limited to no computer skills" demographic here at RMAF:D I can see why the Statement would be very appealing. Those of us who are more on the bleeding edge, and willing to experiment with new findings, are more than willing to endure the spaghetti.

I hope this isn't another DIG at me for no reason what so ever? Ha Ha - very funny. Some of you should get a warning to stop the belittling behaviour! 

read this thread

&  this

I do know a small amount like making 12 or 13 upgrades on my cary 100t DAC & upgrading CAPS etc, improving shielding and isolation & vibration. But as I said many times now I am not a circuit builder or designer from scratch, and I don't wish to be. Also replacing faulty driver units in speaker cabs etc. Safety with AC mains and discharging caps energy. I know it's not electronics, but could even install a separate dedicated power line from MCB for HiFI if I wanted too, including correctly valued cables and fuses and grounding. I can replace broken PCB (like for like). I have built and sold PC's since 1997 with nearly all the MS windows O/S installed since '95' & 3.1. & a bit of linux, but not MAC! ....so I think I am quite 'handy' actually. But because of my learning difficulty I don't understand the physics in electronics. I haven't been rude or offensive in this post to anyone. So I hope that no one will choose to reply sarcastically please? Take Care! Oh! ~ I have had plenty of spaghetti (wiring) in the past in various HiFi and home theatre set-ups, to contend with!

 

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2 hours ago, the_doc735 said:

I hope this isn't another DIG at me for no reason what so ever? Ha Ha - very funny. Some of you should get a warning to stop the belittling behaviour! 

read this thread

&  this

I do know a small amount like making 12 or 13 upgrades on my cary 100t DAC & upgrading CAPS etc, improving shielding and isolation & vibration. But as I said many times now I am not a circuit builder or designer from scratch, and I don't wish to be. Also replacing faulty driver units in speaker cabs etc. Safety with AC mains and discharging caps energy. I know it's not electronics, but could even install a separate dedicated power line from MCB for HiFI if I wanted too, including correctly valued cables and fuses and grounding. I can replace broken PCB (like for like). I have built and sold PC's since 1997 with nearly all the MS windows O/S installed since '95' & 3.1. & a bit of linux, but not MAC! ....so I think I am quite 'handy' actually. But because of my learning difficulty I don't understand the physics in electronics. I haven't been rude or offensive in this post to anyone. So I hope that no one will choose to reply sarcastically please? Take Care! Oh! ~ I have had plenty of spaghetti (wiring) in the past in various HiFi and home theatre set-ups, to contend with!

 

 

No idea where you even come into this? I’m confused.

 

I was talking about people I saw at RMAF who were so ossified they thought CD was a new thing that would never catch on! 

 

Nothing to do with you.

 

 

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1 hour ago, austinpop said:

 

No idea where you even come into this? I’m confused.

 

I was talking about people I saw at RMAF who were so ossified they thought CD was a new thing that would never catch on! 

 

Nothing to do with you.

 

 

OK. thanks. Are their really people who think CD;s are new?   ...and never catch on!

No offence intended to you personally. just over reacted to rumours on the grape vine - Sorry! Many Apologies!

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I seem to have become the local forum 'punchbag', who has now received 'warnings' for merely replying (in defence) to the boxers accusations, who have hit this punchbag; whilst the boxers themselves appear to have got away with their knockout blows without any warnings! Very strange? I didn't think in 2018 that mocking & belittling people with learning issues would be tolerated as acceptable behaviour by society in general.

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Great thread and some very useful feedback Rajiv; many thanks for that. 

 

For clarity purposes, i would like add one comment in order to avoid any misconceptions. 

 

The sound quality improvements of the Statement over the SE may sound very similar in character to the improvements gained by adding a super-high-quality reference clock, and there’s no doubt that the improved clocking of the Statement is a major factor in the improved SQ, but its not the only factor, by a long shot. The improved implementation of the power supply, the increased number of individual internal power rails (8 vs 3), the improved topology, the improved electrical and vibrational isolation and the RFI optimised motherboard all contribute a not insignificant part to the sonic improvements.  I have just upgraded a Sean Jacobs designed and built DC2 with a DC3 PS to an AQVox switch. I was wondering if I’d actually hear a difference (given the large improvement the DC2 made vs. the original wall warty thing) and to paraphrase Rajiv, the differences were clear and obvious....same tonality, transparency, linearity, accuracy.....more of everything else i.e very similar to the benefits Rajiv lists. 

 

Essentially, what this means is that for an SE + full-fat USB reclocking set-up to sound as good as a Statement, the external relocking would need to outperform the Statement’s USB interface implementation by a rather large margin. If it performs the same or slightly better, you end up paying roughly the same money but miss out on all the other improvements generated by the additional Statement features mentioned above.  The only way those benefits will ever be quantified is if someone actually carries out Rajiv’s list of comparisons, but logically speaking, I’m sure you see my point. 

 

 

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Hi Steve / @Blackmorec,

 

Yeah good thoughtful post.

 

Its easy to think in terms of the difference between the SE and the Statement as simply that Innuos adopted OCXO clocking. But as you point out that's an over simplification. Innuos have (to their great credit) paid attention to the clocking but have also simply continued their evolution towards sonic nirvana elsewhere in the Statement.

 

That said I'm sure the question will gravitate in many SE owners minds around how big the delta is between the SE & Reference Clocking versus the Statement.

 

Personally speaking unless convinced somehow that the difference was really compelling the cost/effort of selling the spaghetti-clock-marinara to fund a Statement is a dealbreaker for me at least.

 

Cheers,

Alan

Synergistic Research Powercell UEF SE > Sonore OpticalModule (LPS-1.2 & DXP-1A5DSC) > EtherRegen (SR4T & DXP-1A5DSC) > (Sablon 2020 LAN) Innuos PhoenixNet > Muon Streaming System > Grimm Audio MU1 server > (Sablon AES) Mola Mola Tambaqui DAC > PS Audio M1200 monoblocks > Salk Sound Supercharged Songtowers

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9 hours ago, austinpop said:

Now if TLS's server can match the performance of the Statement, without reliability issues, at a fraction of the cost, Adrian will have a hit on his hands!

 

Exciting times indeed, mine is being build at the moment ?

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On ‎10‎/‎3‎/‎2018 at 10:04 PM, Mark62 said:

I have been trying to make the bridged connection work so I can experience the stated benefits.  I have a Windows 10 PC with 2 NIC's.  I have used the instructions to bridge the NIC's and set a static IP address per the instructions.  I have 1 NIC connected to one of my router's ports and the other to a Sonore UltraRendu.

 

I am using Roon to access FLAC files on my NAS (which is connected via USB to my Asus router) + Tidal and send the music to my ultraRendu.

 

Prior to bridging, all works fine.  Once I bridge the NIC's, I can successfully access the internet through NIC#1 which connects to my router.  However, I cannot access the NAS attached to the router via my PC (in file explorer - it is visible but shows the red "no go" image and won't connect) and Roon cannot access it either.  Further, if I try to play Tidal through Roon to my ultraRendu (connected to NIC #2), I get severe stuttering and fairly quickly - I get a notice in Roon that there are network issues.

 

Any suggestions to try?

 

Thanks!

In follow up to this, I tried some things that were suggested...namely adding my wifi connection into the bridge and choosing different IP addresses.  Nothing has worked to overcome the stated issues above.

 

Does anyone else have any ideas for how to get the bridge working as it should?  I believe I have followed the original instructions exactly...as noted...the bridge shows up in my network adapter list and shows it connected to the internet and working.  And, I can access the internet from the PC with the bridge connected...but cannot access the NAS attached to my router (where my ripped library is) and Roon plays with severe stuttering.

 

Thanks!

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12 minutes ago, Mark62 said:

In follow up to this, I tried some things that were suggested...namely adding my wifi connection into the bridge and choosing different IP addresses.  Nothing has worked to overcome the stated issues above.

 

Does anyone else have any ideas for how to get the bridge working as it should?  I believe I have followed the original instructions exactly...as noted...the bridge shows up in my network adapter list and shows it connected to the internet and working.  And, I can access the internet from the PC with the bridge connected...but cannot access the NAS attached to my router (where my ripped library is) and Roon plays with severe stuttering.

 

Thanks!

 

Hmm, sorry, I never needed to debug past this point.

 

All I can suggest - unless someone who's solved this can chime in - is to go back to the early part of this thread and see if there's other fixes hidden in the early posts. The only thing that comes to mind are some folks who were trying to play with priority order of adapters, but not sure if that resulted in anything conclusive.

 

I'm sure you've done this, but just to ensure all devices flush their ARP caches, port bindings, etc., reboot your entire chain, but in order. First power down everything first. Then power on in sequence (wait for device to finish startup before proceeding to next) from modem inwards:

  • modem
  • router
  • switches
  • NAS
  • bridge machine
  • endpoint

Of course, it's always possible that it's due to the specific chipset of the Ethernet adapter. Since USB Ethernet dongles are so cheap, go back in the early posts and look at what adapters people reported success with, then get a pair of these and try if the bridge works - either with or without a 3rd wifi adapter.

 

Good luck.

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2 hours ago, austinpop said:

 

Hmm, sorry, I never needed to debug past this point.

 

All I can suggest - unless someone who's solved this can chime in - is to go back to the early part of this thread and see if there's other fixes hidden in the early posts. The only thing that comes to mind are some folks who were trying to play with priority order of adapters, but not sure if that resulted in anything conclusive.

 

I'm sure you've done this, but just to ensure all devices flush their ARP caches, port bindings, etc., reboot your entire chain, but in order. First power down everything first. Then power on in sequence (wait for device to finish startup before proceeding to next) from modem inwards:

  • modem
  • router
  • switches
  • NAS
  • bridge machine
  • endpoint

Of course, it's always possible that it's due to the specific chipset of the Ethernet adapter. Since USB Ethernet dongles are so cheap, go back in the early posts and look at what adapters people reported success with, then get a pair of these and try if the bridge works - either with or without a 3rd wifi adapter.

 

Good luck.

Thanks - I did do quite a bit of reading before I got started and after I found the issue.  So far, not seeing anything related, other than I did see something outside this forum about bridging not working after one of the Windows updates.  It seemed to apply but in the end did not.  I'll go back and look more, and I will also try the shut down of the whole system with a restart in the order you note as I have not tried that.  I have rebooted the PC/bridge machine and the endpoint but that did nothing.

 

Meanwhile - if others have ideas - please share!  Thanks!

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3 hours ago, Mark62 said:

Thanks - I did do quite a bit of reading before I got started and after I found the issue.  So far, not seeing anything related, other than I did see something outside this forum about bridging not working after one of the Windows updates.  It seemed to apply but in the end did not.  I'll go back and look more, and I will also try the shut down of the whole system with a restart in the order you note as I have not tried that.  I have rebooted the PC/bridge machine and the endpoint but that did nothing.

 

Meanwhile - if others have ideas - please share!  Thanks!

 

Also, go into adapter settings of both Ethernet interfaces, and identify which chipset each is. Perhaps that will ring some bells for someone...

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1 hour ago, austinpop said:

 

Also, go into adapter settings of both Ethernet interfaces, and identify which chipset each is. Perhaps that will ring some bells for someone...

I was going in to check that (and could not find), but I happened to notice something.  When I open up the properties of each adapter, right under the IPv4 line in the properties where one clicks once adapters are bridged to set the static IP address, there's a line that says "Microsoft Network Adapter Multiplexor Protocol".  It is not check on either individual adapter prior to bridging nor is is checked in the virtual adapter once the 2 physical are bridged.  According to something I was reading in a MS support forum, I saw this quote:

 

"The Microsoft Network Adapter Multiplexor Protocol service is a kernel mode driver. The protocol is installed by default as part of the physical network adapter initialization for the first time.  The Microsoft Network Adapter Multiplexor protocol is checked in the teamed network adapter and unchecked in the physical network adapters that are part of the NIC Teaming. For example, if there are two physical network adapters in a team, the Microsoft Network Adapter Multiplexor protocol will be disabled for these two physical network adapters and checked in the teamed adapter."

This makes it sound like once I bridge the 2 physical adapters - this box should be checked.  Input anyone?

 

Mark

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30 minutes ago, Mark62 said:

I was going in to check that (and could not find), but I happened to notice something.  When I open up the properties of each adapter, right under the IPv4 line in the properties where one clicks once adapters are bridged to set the static IP address, there's a line that says "Microsoft Network Adapter Multiplexor Protocol".  It is not check on either individual adapter prior to bridging nor is is checked in the virtual adapter once the 2 physical are bridged.  According to something I was reading in a MS support forum, I saw this quote:

 

"The Microsoft Network Adapter Multiplexor Protocol service is a kernel mode driver. The protocol is installed by default as part of the physical network adapter initialization for the first time.  The Microsoft Network Adapter Multiplexor protocol is checked in the teamed network adapter and unchecked in the physical network adapters that are part of the NIC Teaming. For example, if there are two physical network adapters in a team, the Microsoft Network Adapter Multiplexor protocol will be disabled for these two physical network adapters and checked in the teamed adapter."

This makes it sound like once I bridge the 2 physical adapters - this box should be checked.  Input anyone?

 

Mark

I just look at mine, both are unchecked.

 

Btw...I have both NAS and router connected to two of the 4 NIC's and then bridge them together.  No experience with connecting via USB to router tho. 

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2 minutes ago, elan120 said:

I just look at mine, both are unchecked.

 

Btw...I have both NAS and router connected to two of the 4 NIC's and then bridge them together.  No experience with connecting via USB to router tho. 

If you look at the properties of the virtual bridge, is it also unchecked?  Thx.

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On 10/6/2018 at 10:23 PM, austinpop said:

... clock effect - everything in sharper focus, instruments sound more real, more air and separation, a more holographic image.

 

 

for comparison, here is what various people have said about jitter:

jitter degrades stereo image, separation, depth, ambience, dynamic range.

 

edgy high end

 

low end just "feels" bigger and more solid

 

Of course, we don't know exactly how "tight" the clocking needs to be nor which clocks, where...

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