A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming

[mtcs]

6 minutes ago, lmitche said:

The ac regenerators are at their heart big amps, and therefore active components.  More passive devices like isolation transformers can have a big impact and get you where you want to be for a lot less money. There are lots of threads CA about these solutions and at least for me, I have no compunction about changing anything in my ac power setup. Mine is a 1000va balanced power transformer with individual floating ground isolation transformers for each lps. The amplifier is direct to the big transformer. I am down to just 3 lpses at the AC to DC conversion level, two for the lps1.2s and one for the Nuc.

That's a new idea for me, I'll check it out. Thanks.

[lmitche]

NUC Update:

 

Ok, so all is working well with roonserver on the Nuc7cjyh in the dirty zone booting from and hosting the 4tb music disk powered by its stock smps.

 

In the clean zone is the Nuc7cjysal with headless Audiolinux and a 10 foot coax wire to the wifi antenna sitting inches from the wifi router.  Throughput is 433mbps, so more than enough for roon. The second connection is the uspcb to the iso regen, and the third 19 volt power from a sigma 11 lps.There is no chance for a ground loop here as there is only one powered device attached to the roonbridge Nuc. This Nuc boots from the onboard 32gb emmc memory and powers it's own internal wifi card. Roonbridge starts at boot.

 

The SQ is the best I have ever heard anywhere, just breath taking. 

 

It is hard to describe the level of openness and sense of presence without a single harsh sound. I can hear tremendous detail such as breath sounds for the first time on well known albums, players with instruments I never heard before and an expansive sound stage with height, depth and breadth. The SQ is there at any resolution and format, PCM or DSD. I can easily hit ear bleed levels which is a bit dangerous. I'm running 3 to 4 db lower volume then usual. Coherence is off the charts and eveything you hear makes sense in space and time. 

 

I am very grateful to Piero Olmeida for his Audiolinux OS and outstanding service and support. I am pleased to be using Audiolinux fulltime again and won't miss that other OS.

[BigGuy]

1 hour ago, tboooe said:

Could you please clarify these comments?  Perhaps I am reading them wrong but it sounds to me like you are saying a regenerator is both good and bad?  Maybe I haven't had enough coffee yet.

Sorry for the confusion...  

My intended meaning was that regenerator does 2 things:

1) Provides clean power to component(s);

2) Given my understanding that digital components can backfeed noise into the mains, the regenerator can mitigate this;

[austinpop]

4 hours ago, mtcs said:

Hi all.

 

I've been involved with computer audio for a couple of years and finally have a "good sound." But, of course, I want  to do better. So, I'd like advice on my next upgrade.

 

I'm considering either adding  a tX-USBultra with Mutec10 ref clock or an AC power regenerator. I'm firmly convinced that better clocks help but I also know that AC power matters. At this point, I haven't done anything for AC beyond high quality power cords and distribution box.

 

My current system is:

 

Nordost Heindall 2 power cords, Nordost QB4 distribution box

SGC/Roon/HQPe/JS-2 => ultraRendu/LPS-1=>ISO Regen/JS-2 =>Auralic Vega dac=>

ARC amp, Wilson speakers

 

What do you think: better clock, better AC or other?

 

Thanks.

 

This is a really tough question to answer, if you frame it as an either-or! As I look at my own journey, my AC and clock improvements were kind of interspersed. If I remember right, my system improvements came in this order:

1. P5 regenerator
2. sCLK-EX improvements with SOtM trifecta
3. Cybershaft OP-14 master reference clock
4. Dedicated 6-gauge AC circuit and outlet
5. Mutec Ref 10

I found every step to be worthwhile. In hindsight, would I do them in any different order? Hmm, I don't know. For the most part, the AC improvements (dedicated line, regenerator) seemed to affect dynamics and cleanliness the most, whereas the clock improvements are more about spaciousness, resolution, clarity, texture etc. Don't get me wrong - there is overlap, but at a very gross level, this is how I would differentiate.

 

Looking back, I would still do ALL of these things, but to make the cost palatable, it's perfectly OK to spread these out over time.

 

On the AC side, definitely get a dedicated circuit. 10 gauge is fine. This is a no-brainer, on any system. Just do it. Take a look at Paul McGowan's latest video, at around the 6:00 minute mark: 

 

 

When it comes to conditioning, things get interesting. There are so many competing products and opinions, it's hard to know which way to go. There's IT's, like some in CA like. There's regenerators from PS Audio. Then there's conditioners like the Denali/Triton et al. Then there are other power conditioners. I have not tried these all, so cannot say which is the way to go. All I can say is I took the PS Audio regenerator approach, and heard a substantial improvement. But other ways may yield equal or better.

 

The clock stuff is a no-brainer, and you can space it out by getting the tX-USBultra first, and Ref 10 later.

[Ralf11]

 a dedicated circuit is a no-brainer for new construction

 

but if it would require $5k in rip-out, permits, and (finally) construction... think and measure about what noise issues you have now, the reduction from a dedicated line, and what other ways might get you where you want to go

 

 

[barrows]

5 hours ago, mtcs said:

Hi all.

 

I've been involved with computer audio for a couple of years and finally have a "good sound." But, of course, I want  to do better. So, I'd like advice on my next upgrade.

 

I'm considering either adding  a tX-USBultra with Mutec10 ref clock or an AC power regenerator. I'm firmly convinced that better clocks help but I also know that AC power matters. At this point, I haven't done anything for AC beyond high quality power cords and distribution box.

 

My current system is:

 

Nordost Heindall 2 power cords, Nordost QB4 distribution box

SGC/Roon/HQPe/JS-2 => ultraRendu/LPS-1=>ISO Regen/JS-2 =>Auralic Vega dac=>

ARC amp, Wilson speakers

 

What do you think: better clock, better AC or other?

 

Thanks.

If you are not already doing it, here is a free upgrade for you: use ROON to oversample everything to the highest rate of DSD which your Vega accepts.  The Vega uses an ESS 9018 chip, and in my experience the ESS chips do way better with DSD input, and ROON oversampling to DSD is actually pretty damn good.

[austinpop]

Just now, Ralf11 said:

 a dedicated circuit is a no-brainer for new construction

 

but if it would require $5k in rip-out, permits, and (finally) construction... think and measure about what noise issues you have now, the reduction from a dedicated line, and what other ways might get you where you want to go

 

 

 

Every situation is different, but what you've described is a very worst case. Depending on the length of the home run, location of the breaker panel relative to the outlet, whether you can/want to reuse an existing outlet, you can do this with as little as an hour or two of an electrician's time, and parts. Mine was all of $200, but I was very fortunate on location.

 

I know many people who've had a dedicated circuit put in for a few 100 dollars, under $1k. Of course, this is in the US, with frame construction, and where you control access to the attics, crawlspaces. Apartments, high-rises, stone or cinder block construction, rentals, etc. are a different matter.

 

So yes - it may not be feasible for all, but definitely something to consider and price out in terms of cost and effort.

[mtcs]

20 minutes ago, austinpop said:

 

This is a really tough question to answer, if you frame it as an either-or! As I look at my own journey, my AC and clock improvements were kind of interspersed. If I remember right, my system improvements came in this order:

1. P5 regenerator
2. sCLK-EX improvements with SOtM trifecta
3. Cybershaft OP-14 master reference clock
4. Dedicated 6-gauge AC circuit and outlet
5. Mutec Ref 10

I found every step to be worthwhile. In hindsight, would I do them in any different order? Hmm, I don't know. For the most part, the AC improvements (dedicated line, regenerator) seemed to affect dynamics and cleanliness the most, whereas the clock improvements are more about spaciousness, resolution, clarity, texture etc. Don't get me wrong - there is overlap, but at a very gross level, this is how I would differentiate.

 

Looking back, I would still do ALL of these things, but to make the cost palatable, it's perfectly OK to spread these out over time.

 

On the AC side, definitely get a dedicated circuit. 10 gauge is fine. This is a no-brainer, on any system. Just do it. Take a look at Paul McGowan's latest video, at around the 6:00 minute mark: 

 

 

When it comes to conditioning, things get interesting. There are so many competing products and opinions, it's hard to know which way to go. There's IT's, like some in CA like. There's regenerators from PS Audio. Then there's conditioners like the Denali/Triton et al. Then there are other power conditioners. I have not tried these all, so cannot say which is the way to go. All I can say is I took the PS Audio regenerator approach, and heard a substantial improvement. But other ways may yield equal or better.

 

The clock stuff is a no-brainer, and you can space it out by getting the tX-USBultra first, and Ref 10 later.

 

Thanks for the thorough response. The video was a useful reminder about wiring.

 

I knew that the was no simple answer to my question. But it was interesting that there no one firmly recommended the clock as the first choice. As I read everyone's comments, I find myself leaning toward improving the "infrastructure" first. So wiring/outlets (relatively easy in my situation), then regenerator and then clocks. Assuming , of course, that I don't losing my discipline and do something else on a whim!

 

As always, this forum is a great place for information.

[Johnseye]

Cost is relative in the hobby. I paid about $3k to dedicate my 2 channel and surround circuits. Worth it to me but not my wife. 

[Ralf11]

I think we agree on this.  Texas (even Ostentacious) likely has lower permit and labor costs than many other places.  I suppose Del Rio would be cheapest...

 

My main point is to think carefully about where noise is coming from (radiated into a longer AC line that is dedicated??), and how to mitigate it.  I'd definitely want to stay away from a  refrigerator tho.

 

I was able to get out publicly owned utility to measure noise at my place.  It seemed low (thread on here about it with graphs) so I lowered the position a Topaz occupied on my todo list...

 

New construction is the best case.

[Ralf11]

mtcs, you might want to start a new thread and post info about the clock/DAC you use, etc. with a full room & system description

 

also a brief stmt. on WAF...

[mtcs]

9 minutes ago, barrows said:

If you are not already doing it, here is a free upgrade for you: use ROON to oversample everything to the highest rate of DSD which your Vega accepts.  The Vega uses an ESS 9018 chip, and in my experience the ESS chips do way better with DSD input, and ROON oversampling to DSD is actually pretty damn good.

 

I agree completely about upsampling. I'm a dedicated fan of HQPlayer. The recently added filters have really made my system sing: more weight and depth with no loss of detail.

[the_doc735]

37 minutes ago, austinpop said:

 

This is a really tough question to answer, if you frame it as an either-or! As I look at my own journey, my AC and clock improvements were kind of interspersed. If I remember right, my system improvements came in this order:

1. P5 regenerator
2. sCLK-EX improvements with SOtM trifecta
3. Cybershaft OP-14 master reference clock
4. Dedicated 6-gauge AC circuit and outlet
5. Mutec Ref 10

I found every step to be worthwhile. In hindsight, would I do them in any different order? Hmm, I don't know. For the most part, the AC improvements (dedicated line, regenerator) seemed to affect dynamics and cleanliness the most, whereas the clock improvements are more about spaciousness, resolution, clarity, texture etc. Don't get me wrong - there is overlap, but at a very gross level, this is how I would differentiate.

 

Looking back, I would still do ALL of these things, but to make the cost palatable, it's perfectly OK to spread these out over time.

 

On the AC side, definitely get a dedicated circuit. 10 gauge is fine. This is a no-brainer, on any system. Just do it. Take a look at Paul McGowan's latest video, at around the 6:00 minute mark: 

 

 

When it comes to conditioning, things get interesting. There are so many competing products and opinions, it's hard to know which way to go. There's IT's, like some in CA like. There's regenerators from PS Audio. Then there's conditioners like the Denali/Triton et al. Then there are other power conditioners. I have not tried these all, so cannot say which is the way to go. All I can say is I took the PS Audio regenerator approach, and heard a substantial improvement. But other ways may yield equal or better.

 

The clock stuff is a no-brainer, and you can space it out by getting the tX-USBultra first, and Ref 10 later.

 

even dedicated circuits meet at the main house power supply cable i.e. sharing the same house power cable from outside the home and the interference will travel everywhere up and down those lines backwards and forwards where ever they meet (even if you have a separate fuse box!). I would have thought that an isolating transformer would be as good, maybe better?   e.g. Topaz.

 

[barrows]

7 minutes ago, mtcs said:

I agree completely about upsampling. I'm a dedicated fan of HQPlayer. The recently added filters have really made my system sing: more weight and depth with no loss of detail.

Most prefer HQP and you will get no argument from me.  My point was that just by applying ROON's oversampling (to DSD 128/256) there will be a nice gain in SQ without having to purchase anything else (HQP or a more powerful computer needed to run it).  So a free "upgrade"

[austinpop]

12 minutes ago, Johnseye said:

Cost is relative in the hobby. I paid about $3k to dedicate my 2 channel and surround circuits. Worth it to me but not my wife. 

 

But this was several circuits, right John? What would you say was $/circuit?

[mtcs]

9 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

mtcs, you might want to start a new thread and post info about the clock/DAC you use, etc. with a full room & system description

 

also a brief stmt. on WAF...

 

Good idea. Thanks.

[mtcs]

2 minutes ago, barrows said:

Most prefer HQP and you will get no argument from me.  My point was that just by applying ROON's oversampling (to DSD 128/256) there will be a nice gain in SQ without having to purchase anything else (HQP or a more powerful computer needed to run it).  So a free "upgrade"

 

Got it. I'm already using HQPe on a sonicTRansporter7.

[mtcs]

5 minutes ago, the_doc735 said:

 

even dedicated circuits meet at the main house power supply cable i.e. sharing the same house power cable from outside the home and the interference will travel everywhere up and down those lines backwards and forwards where ever they meet (even if you have a separate fuse box!). I would have thought that an isolating transformer would be as good, maybe better?   e.g. Topaz.

 

 

That's a good thought and I'll look into it. There seem to be  a lot of options for improving AC.

[FredM]

8 hours ago, mtcs said:

Hi all.

 

I've been involved with computer audio for a couple of years and finally have a "good sound." But, of course, I want  to do better. So, I'd like advice on my next upgrade.

 

I'm considering either adding  a tX-USBultra with Mutec10 ref clock or an AC power regenerator. I'm firmly convinced that better clocks help but I also know that AC power matters. At this point, I haven't done anything for AC beyond high quality power cords and distribution box.

 

My current system is:

 

Nordost Heindall 2 power cords, Nordost QB4 distribution box

SGC/Roon/HQPe/JS-2 => ultraRendu/LPS-1=>ISO Regen/JS-2 =>Auralic Vega dac=>

ARC amp, Wilson speakers

 

What do you think: better clock, better AC or other?

 

Thanks.

 

My 2 cents:

Both are related, when you add 3 devices (tX, psu, mutec10), you’ll also need 3 extra power cables.. Which brings your pre-DAC device count to 9? Then also 9 power cables (not to mention the digital cables to connect them with each other)

As an alternative option you could consider going for an all-in-one server (ie aurender, antipodes, the linear solution, pink faun, ..). Some of these also include very decent internal (OCXO) clocking. For the money of a tX, psu and Mutec10 with matching digital- and power cables you’ll invest roughly 80% of the price of a one box clocked server. Sell your other gear and you’re done, with probably some spare/saved cash at hand to improve your AC power matters. 

 

[the_doc735]

3 hours ago, mtcs said:

 

That's a good thought and I'll look into it. There seem to be  a lot of options for improving AC.

In this scenario, you could get your electricity company/provider to install a second line to your property with a second electricity meter purely for Hi Fi usage; that way would provide greater isolation, "BUT!" ~ back at the electric companies SUB STATION there will still be a meeting point somewhere! Unless of course, the electric company are willing to build a dedicate electricity generator solely providing you with power i.e. isolated from the rest of the grid! Your own power station, no less!

[One and a half]

27 minutes ago, FredM said:

 

My 2 cents:

Both are related, when you add 3 devices (tX, psu, mutec10), you’ll also need 3 extra power cables.. Which brings your pre-DAC device count to 9? Then also 9 power cables (not to mention the digital cables to connect them with each other)

As an alternative option you could consider going for an all-in-one server (ie aurender, antipodes, the linear solution, pink faun, ..). Some of these also include very decent internal (OCXO) clocking. For the money of a tX, psu and Mutec10 with matching digital- and power cables you’ll invest roughly 80% of the price of a one box clocked server. Sell your other gear and you’re done, with probably some spare/saved cash at hand to improve your AC power matters. 

 

Totally agree. Far too many components, cabling and control of noise origins are a headache. After many years tinkering with a separate DAC, the time has come for a one box solution, either a Lumin or Linn. I still get joy every time I play an SACD or CD, it doesn't fatigue like digital file playback does after 20s. Convenient, yes, but a prime listening music source, digital it is not. There's a vast amount of work in the library and to that end, an Ethernet streamer with an analog out is in the crosshairs for purchase.

[Ralf11]

20 minutes ago, the_doc735 said:

In this scenario, you could get your electricity company/provider to install a second line to your property with a second electricity meter purely for Hi Fi usage; that way would provide greater isolation, "BUT!" ~ back at the electric companies SUB STATION there will still be a meeting point somewhere! Unless of course, the electric company are willing to build a dedicate electricity generator solely providing you with power i.e. isolated from the rest of the grid! Your own power station, no less!

 

The noise will attenuate with distance (variably, depending on freq.).  It can also radiate, and a non-shielded run can act like a long antenna...

 

Some houses around here have electrical ceiling heat - a giant planar antenna right over your stereo...

[seeteeyou]

14 hours ago, lmitche said:

In the clean zone is the Nuc7cjysal with headless Audiolinux and a 10 foot coax wire to the wifi antenna sitting inches from the wifi router.  Throughput is 433mbps, so more than enough for roon. The second connection is the uspcb to the iso regen, and the third 19 volt power from a sigma 11 lps.There is no chance for a ground loop here as there is only one powered device attached to the roonbridge Nuc.

 

Thanks Larry for documenting your journey, we're so glad to have you and Roy here who share your findings with everyone.

 

I've got a question regarding what we could do to optimize the power supplies on the clean side since Roy mentioned this before

 

https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/30376-a-novel-way-to-massively-improve-the-sq-of-computer-audio-streaming/?page=361&tab=comments#comment-860642

On 8/10/2018 at 3:01 PM, romaz said:

Regarding power supplies for this NUC board, yes, it scales extremely well to power supplies and better than my DFI board.  This board can accept 12-19V.  During my testing with my SR7s, 19V sounds a little better than 12V but DR (double regulated) 12V sounds considerably better than 19V.  The ideal SR7 for this board would likely be a DR 19V which I do not have.

 

Given that output of LT3045 couldn't go any higher than 15V, do you foresee any potential issues if we're combining two of them (i.e. 7V + 12V in series) into 19V with a Y-cable as shown below?

 

https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/31554-diy-dc-power-cables/?page=24&tab=comments#comment-678934

 

Let's say that's causing no harm whatsoever, now it's just a matter of providing enough current @ 19V

 

https://nucblog.net/2018/04/gemini-lake-nuc-review-nuc7cjyh-linux-htpc-conclusions/

Quote

• Idle at Windows 10 desktop: 7.2 W
• Playing 4k HEVC video: 11.8 W
• Prime95 stress test: 15.6 W
• Prime95 stress test and Cinebench OpenGL test simultaneously: 24.1 W

 

Granted running AudioLinux in headless mode with RoonBridge shouldn't draw THAT much current to begin with, though we'll just play it safe by going for 19V × 1.5A = 28.5W like this

 

http://www.ldovr.com/product-p/dxp-1a5dsc.htm

 

 

Besides feeding LT3045 with Sigma 11 LPS, what else do you recommend?

 

I'm just wondering if one power bank for 9V plus another for 15V were any good, batteries that are disconnected from an AC outlet should be able to prevent any ground loops from happening

 

https://www.ravpower.com/26800mah-Type-C-external-battery-charger-black.html

https://www.amazon.com/RAVPower-Portable-26800mAh-Recharged-Nintendo/dp/B01LRQDAEI

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1313332-REG/ravpower_65_02058_101_rp_pb058_26800mah_usb_c.html

Quote

Type-C Output: DC 5V/3A,9V/2A,15V/2A,20V/1.5A

 

 

Other than that, do you guys have other suggestions for 19V?

[lmitche]

1 hour ago, seeteeyou said:

 

Thanks Larry for documenting your journey, we're so glad to have you and Roy here who share your findings with everyone.

 

I've got a question regarding what we could do to optimize the power supplies on the clean side since Roy mentioned this before

 

https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/30376-a-novel-way-to-massively-improve-the-sq-of-computer-audio-streaming/?page=361&tab=comments#comment-860642

 

Given that output of LT3045 couldn't go any higher than 15V, do you foresee any potential issues if we're combining two of them (i.e. 7V + 12V in series) into 19V with a Y-cable as shown below?

 

https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/31554-diy-dc-power-cables/?page=24&tab=comments#comment-678934

 

Let's say that's causing no harm whatsoever, now it's just a matter of providing enough current @ 19V

 

https://nucblog.net/2018/04/gemini-lake-nuc-review-nuc7cjyh-linux-htpc-conclusions/

 

Granted running AudioLinux in headless mode with RoonBridge shouldn't draw THAT much current to begin with, though we'll just play it safe by going for 19V × 1.5A = 28.5W like this

 

http://www.ldovr.com/product-p/dxp-1a5dsc.htm

 

 

Besides feeding LT3045 with Sigma 11 LPS, what else do you recommend?

 

I'm just wondering if one power bank for 9V plus another for 15V were any good, batteries that are disconnected from an AC outlet should be able to prevent any ground loops from happening

 

https://www.ravpower.com/26800mah-Type-C-external-battery-charger-black.html

https://www.amazon.com/RAVPower-Portable-26800mAh-Recharged-Nintendo/dp/B01LRQDAEI

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1313332-REG/ravpower_65_02058_101_rp_pb058_26800mah_usb_c.html

 

Other than that, do you guys have other suggestions for 19V?

CTU,

 

I like your thinking, thanks for sharing. Currently there is a MPaudio 3 amp lt3045 regulator powered by a sigma 11 feeding the 12 volt input to my hardisk enclosure in the dirty zone. As an experiment I'll put an smps on the enclosure, and use the 12 volt lt3045 rig to power the NUC.

 

According to Roy this should be an improvement. We will see.

 

I would like to try a js-2 in this same position. An sr7 would be interesting as well, but I don't know how to get one. Lastly the new hdplex 200 watt lpsu has two lt3045 2 amp outputs that could be combined to 18 or 19 volts. I'll put a DMM on the existing supply and look at current levels later in the week.

 

The next question is where does the SQ go with further power improvements? It is crazy good now and it feels like outright Audiophile gluttony to ask for much more.

 

Lastly, why do you think there are ground loops in my current setup? If the iso regen is doing it's job, and all indications are that it is,  I don't the possibility of a ground loop as the only powerered device is the NUC.

 

I've purposely built a cul-de-sac. Am I missing something?

[seeteeyou]

18 minutes ago, lmitche said:

Lastly, why do you think there are ground loops in my current setup? If the iso regen is doing it's job, and all indications are that it is,  I don't the possibility of a ground loop as the only powerered device is the NUC.

 

I've purposely built a cul-de-sac. Am I missing something?

 

Hi Larry,

 

Ouch, I only talked about ground loops because I was trying to make sure that batteries are OK as long as they're off the grid. In other words, I was simply trying to poke some holes at my game plan (just in case I wasn't aware of other potential issues) while I didn't have doubts about what you've accomplished already.

 

I was being "extra" cautious because some audiophiles were also having battery-powered source components like older MacBook etc. (I read that a long time ago and hopefully that's actually how it went.) Somehow some of them liked it better when it's plugged in while the battery was removed, the others would prefer that to be unplugged from the wall and therefore it's only powered by the battery.

 

BTW, that Intel Wireless-AC 9462-D2W module came with MHF4 connectors as follows

 

https://www.intel.com/content/dam/support/us/en/documents/mini-pcs/nuc-kits/NUC7xJY_TechProdSpec.pdf#page=28

 

Are we supposed to get a pair of pigtails first?

 

https://www.data-alliance.net/mhf4-to-sma-male-cable-3-inch-4-inch-5-inch-6-inch-8-inch-16-inch/

 

And then add a pair of extension coaxial cable cords between those pigtails and antennas?

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/2X-10ft-WiFi-Antenna-RP-SMA-Extension-Coaxial-Cable-Cord-for-Wi-Fi-Router-Line/192196205184