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A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming


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Most important: please realize this thread is about bleeding edge experimentation and discovery. No one has The Answer™. If you are not into tweaking, just know that you can have a musically satisfying system without doing any of the nutty things we do here.

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5 hours ago, lmitche said:

NUC update:

 

I agree with most of you in believing that the quality of upstream components matters. Nevertheless I have always been troubled by the excellent sound quality of Tidal from Roon.  I can't hear a difference, mastering quality aside, from locally sourced music from highly optimized equipment and Tidal source files. Given this, it shouldn't mattter if local files are served from the dirty side of the LAN, just like Tidal.

 

Yesterday the USB 3 disk containing my music files was moved to the untreated power side of the room. The music disk is served as a share from a SMPS powered Netgear R7000 router. Today the USB NIC and LPS powered WAP were removed and the AC class wireless card in the NUC enabled at 5ghz. This means that the NUC has three cables, a wifi antenna, 19 volts from a linear power supply and the USPCB to the ISO Regen.  Given the moat created by the ISO Regen it is now ground loopless. I also attached a 10 foot antenna cable from the nuc wifi card and placed the antenna inches from the router hosting the music disk.

 

So the music is now being served over the NUC 433mps wifi link from the router(as NAS) on the dirty side.

 

SQ is fabulous, once again more transparent, with a beautiful timbre from instruments. Harshness is gone. I had to lower volume almost 4db on many tracks. My tinnitus is much reduced.

 

Roon core on Audiolinux is running on the NUC.

 

Tomorrow a second NUC arrives. It cost $125. Keeping it in the dirty zone, I'll move the hard disk there, enable Roon core there, and run Roonbridge on the clean, ramboot, Dac connected NUC.

 

It was a fascinating, and surprisingly rewarding day. I feel like I'm almost done with this silly hobby.

 

P.S. I know, I know, I've recreated the ethernet to USB streamer here, just like the microRendu or SOTM SMS ultra . . .  nevertheless I've auditioned both and had nothing like the SQ heard here today.  I don't know where the magic is, Audiolinux perhaps?

 

 

 

 

Hello @lmitche

 

Sounds like your'e almost there.  How difficult do you suppose it would be for someone with little knowledge on setting up computers/networks (me!?) to implement your approach.  Mucho hand holding required?!!

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6 hours ago, tims said:

Hello @lmitche

 

Sounds like your'e almost there.  How difficult do you suppose it would be for someone with little knowledge on setting up computers/networks (me!?) to implement your approach.  Mucho hand holding required?!!

Hmmm . . . this configuration takes a medium level of network and a low to medium Linux skills including use of the command line. It's too long of a process for a hand holding thing, so best if you have someone with those skills involved.

 

 

Pareto Audio aka nuckleheadaudio

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33 minutes ago, ajm said:

Mainly a comment to Larry. I see that Audiolinux headless can now be run from only 8GB RAM and this might widen the range of NUC's that can be used.

 

Andrew

Andrew,

 

Yes indeed, you are right. Coincidentally I ordered a copy seconds before reading this. It may even sound better.

 

Regular Audiolinux will run very happily in 4gb. Ramboot takes the larger 16gb footprint. Headless should Ramboot with 8gb.

 

Larry

Pareto Audio aka nuckleheadaudio

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7 hours ago, tims said:

Hello @lmitche

 

Sounds like your'e almost there.  How difficult do you suppose it would be for someone with little knowledge on setting up computers/networks (me!?) to implement your approach.  Mucho hand holding required?!!

Best of Luck mate! - I asked similar some time ago and got nothing and ridicule in return! Told to buy a good text book or go on a college/uni. course. Take care.

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9 hours ago, the_doc735 said:

have you  got any links for improved mobo clocks please? I thought that had been abandoned because it creates too many problems i.e. paul pang?

 

Hi @the_doc735

 

A lot of people on this thread have done (or had done by SOtM) clock mods to their mobos, to accept a better clock, like the sCLK-EX, and reported improved SQ.

 

Have you had a chance to browse the index for this thread in the very first post? I recommend looking at the indexed posts there to get an overview of this thread in general.

 

In particular, have a look at the section entitled Clock mods...

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On 9/20/2018 at 2:02 PM, lmitche said:

Doc,

 

No one should be discouraged from learning how to do this stuff. In my response above, I certainly don't mean to imply that people can't succeed at doing this configuration themselves. But hand holding will be required. And probably a lot of hand holding.

 

We all started somewhere. Clearly many millions of people have these skills and the barriers to learning are very low. You should know that Piero, the author of Audiolinux hand held me throughout the installation process. This despite the fact that I have been hands on with technology from learning to program in the mid 1960's and learning and working with the Unix team in the 70s at university . . . .and on and on. Most of my career has been spent managing technology development teams. Nevertheless implementation details matter, and it takes hands on experience to learn those details. And those details can get awfully complicated at times.

 

Mostly, it is the unexpected stuff that makes this hard. The NUC bios is pretty awful,. I haven't seen anything this bad since early days of the consumer motherboard business. You can get things to work, but it takes persistence to deal with the inconsistent behavior. This combined with the command line requirements of Audiolinux suggest to me that it is not an easy road for a novice. 

 

You could argue that Google search has a command line interface and everyone seems to learn that, so what do I know.

 

That's my two cents.

 

Good luck.

 

Larry

I  wasn't 'sighting' you in particular, no worries!

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On 9/19/2018 at 10:41 PM, Confused said:

Ok - that makes sense.  I’m thinking that in the MC3+USB the job of the USB clock is to govern the rate at which the USB data is received.  Over time, this data must be received at exactly the same rate as the output, otherwise the FIFO buffer would empty or overflow.  Considering this, I would assume the MC3+USB’s output and USB clock would both take reference from the reference clock.  I might be wrong, but I think this makes sense.  Subjectivity, the results I am getting with my Devialet amp, which likes an AES/EBU feed, are superb.  So whatever the MC3+USB is doing, I’m pretty happy!

 

If @julian.david happens to check in, maybe he can advise.

 

Hmm, this is quite a bit outside of my technical comfort zone. I'm going to have to discuss this with Christian Peters, who will be back from vacation next week. Please stand by...

 

Julian

MUTEC GmbH

Marketing Associate

Email [email protected]

Web www.mutec-net.com

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On 9/20/2018 at 12:29 AM, lmitche said:

I don't know where the magic is, Audiolinux perhaps?

Couldn't resist a try.

Sounds pretty amazing coming from a very tweaked server 2016 build. Transparency and frequency extension immediately noticeable.

A bit fiddly to set up still haven't got a lot of things working properly but it's a keeper.

Tried both the headless and standard version both very good. Thanks for the pointer.

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On 9/19/2018 at 11:40 PM, austinpop said:

 

Yes, it would be good to confirm whether the MC-3+ USB:

  1. has the same quality (i.e. phase noise) clock for USB as it has for the sample rate clock(s), and
  2. if the USB clock is also disciplined by the reference clock input?

I wouldn't be surprised if the answer is no. The idea of improving "system" clocks (USB, Ethernet, mobo) is really something that gained traction with this thread (courtesy Romaz), although, to be fair, there were vendors dabbling in it - like Paul Pang, SOtM, SGM, among others.

 

After the discussion on the Chinese Gustard DDC that CTU posted, it got me thinking - imagine how great a DDC the Mutec MC-3+ USB would be if:

  1. it had an input for an external PSU, so powered with an SR-4 or SR-7
  2. it had an I2S output
  3. it's USB clock was of the same quality as the sample rate clocks, and could be disciplined by the input reference clock.

Something like that from Mutec would be pretty special.

 

I am part way there...

 

I removed the internal SMPS of my M3USB and replaced it with a LT3045 6v regulator and pulled the USB board. The M2USB is fed from a Rednet D16 via AES. A Mutec REF10 provides master clock for the M3USB which in turn provides word clock back to the RN D16. The M3USB re-clocks the signal to my DAC.

 

Pretty nice sound for me.


"Don't Believe Everything You Think"

System

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$118
https://www.amazon.com/Intel-NUC7-Celeron-Mini-BOXNUC7CJYH1/dp/B07B79CS8N

 

$68
https://www.amazon.com/Patriot-Performance-PC4-19200-2400MHZ-PV48G240C5S/dp/B01KBKHK56

 

$68
http://www.performance-pcs.com/akasa-newton-jc-fanless-case-for-intelr-june-canyon.html

 

$58
http://tophifi.it

 

$8

https://www.amazon.com/Kingston-DataTraveler-16GB-Ultra-small-DTMC3/dp/B00ZRHX2F6

 

That's gonna cost roughly $320 plus shipping. Let's say we just don't wanna spend our time on tinkering ourselves and now what? It's doesn't hurt to get in touch with some local computer stores,  just ask them if they're able to handle headless Linux installation after they've swapped the chassis. Sometimes even our friends or relatives etc. might be savvy enough to get that handled, simply pay them to give it a go for a few hours.

 

We aren't even storing any kinda data on that NUC so there will be no privacy issues or anything like that. And then we're talking about only 300 bucks or so, who's gonna run away with something relatively cheap?

 

Finally we could still get help from Piero just in case our USB DACs aren't really working under (headless version of) AudioLinux, though USB Audio Class version 2.0 shouldn't be such a big deal.

 

What if that were "too much work" for those of us who don't mind paying more something even better? Here's an alternative for $1699 that's also based on Intel NUC7CJYSAL

 

https://thelinearsolution.com/streamer.html

https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/46870-ds-1-audiophile-streamer-anyone-tried-this?/

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Hi all.

 

I've been involved with computer audio for a couple of years and finally have a "good sound." But, of course, I want  to do better. So, I'd like advice on my next upgrade.

 

I'm considering either adding  a tX-USBultra with Mutec10 ref clock or an AC power regenerator. I'm firmly convinced that better clocks help but I also know that AC power matters. At this point, I haven't done anything for AC beyond high quality power cords and distribution box.

 

My current system is:

 

Nordost Heindall 2 power cords, Nordost QB4 distribution box

SGC/Roon/HQPe/JS-2 => ultraRendu/LPS-1=>ISO Regen/JS-2 =>Auralic Vega dac=>

ARC amp, Wilson speakers

 

What do you think: better clock, better AC or other?

 

Thanks.

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7 minutes ago, mtcs said:

Hi all.

 

I've been involved with computer audio for a couple of years and finally have a "good sound." But, of course, I want  to do better. So, I'd like advice on my next upgrade.

 

I'm considering either adding  a tX-USBultra with Mutec10 ref clock or an AC power regenerator. I'm firmly convinced that better clocks help but I also know that AC power matters. At this point, I haven't done anything for AC beyond high quality power cords and distribution box.

 

My current system is:

 

Nordost Heindall 2 power cords, Nordost QB4 distribution box

SGC/Roon/HQPe/JS-2 => ultraRendu/LPS-1=>ISO Regen/JS-2 =>Auralic Vega dac=>

ARC amp, Wilson speakers

 

What do you think: better clock, better AC or other?

 

Thanks.

You are going to get a bunch of different opinions on this.  I personally believe a great sounding audio system starts with clean, consistent power.  I use a PS Audio P3 ac regenerator with great results.  I am now planning to install a dedicated breaker box and circuit for my system with quality wiring and a separate ground.

12TB NAS >> i7-6700 Server/Control PC >> i3-5015u NAA >> Singxer SU-1 DDC (modded) >> Holo Spring L3 DAC >> Accustic Arts Power 1 int amp >> Sonus Faber Guaneri Evolution speakers + REL T/5i sub (x2)

 

Other components:

UpTone Audio LPS1.2/IsoRegen, Fiber Switch and FMC, Windows Server 2016 OS, Audiophile Optimizer 3.0, Fidelizer Pro 6, HQ Player, Roonserver, PS Audio P3 AC regenerator, HDPlex 400W ATX & 200W Linear PSU, Light Harmonic Lightspeed Split USB cable, Synergistic Research Tungsten AC power cords, Tara Labs The One speaker cables, Tara Labs The Two Extended with HFX Station IC, Oyaide R1 outlets, Stillpoints Ultra Mini footers, Hi-Fi Tuning fuses, Vicoustic/RealTraps/GIK room treatments

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14 minutes ago, tboooe said:

You are going to get a bunch of different opinions on this.  I personally believe a great sounding audio system starts with clean, consistent power.  I use a PS Audio P3 ac regenerator with great results.  I am now planning to install a dedicated breaker box and circuit for my system with quality wiring and a separate ground.

I would agree with tboooe.  Get your existing system sounding as you can with clean power before embarking on other changes.  Maybe not as visually exciting as new component(s) but one I did in my own setup.  I have 2 dedicated duplex outlets which have 10AWG "homeruns" to the master panel.  I use an original PSAudio P300 to power all front end devices, i.e., Manhattan II DAC, Esoteric UX-3 universal player, and custom built LDR-based preamp.  Pass XA60.8 amps are driven directly from 1 of the duplexes.  Miscellaneous power supplies, etc. are fed by a PSAudio Quintessence.

IMO use of a regenerator facilitates not only providing clean power to the front end devices but also mitigates feeding noise back into the mains.

Both a friend and myself feel that using a regenerator such as P3, P5, etc.,  may compromise sound of a system but YMMV.

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4 minutes ago, BigGuy said:

IMO use of a regenerator facilitates not only providing clean power to the front end devices but also mitigates feeding noise back into the mains.

Both a friend and myself feel that using a regenerator such as P3, P5, etc.,  may compromise sound of a system but YMMV.

Could you please clarify these comments?  Perhaps I am reading them wrong but it sounds to me like you are saying a regenerator is both good and bad?  Maybe I haven't had enough coffee yet.

12TB NAS >> i7-6700 Server/Control PC >> i3-5015u NAA >> Singxer SU-1 DDC (modded) >> Holo Spring L3 DAC >> Accustic Arts Power 1 int amp >> Sonus Faber Guaneri Evolution speakers + REL T/5i sub (x2)

 

Other components:

UpTone Audio LPS1.2/IsoRegen, Fiber Switch and FMC, Windows Server 2016 OS, Audiophile Optimizer 3.0, Fidelizer Pro 6, HQ Player, Roonserver, PS Audio P3 AC regenerator, HDPlex 400W ATX & 200W Linear PSU, Light Harmonic Lightspeed Split USB cable, Synergistic Research Tungsten AC power cords, Tara Labs The One speaker cables, Tara Labs The Two Extended with HFX Station IC, Oyaide R1 outlets, Stillpoints Ultra Mini footers, Hi-Fi Tuning fuses, Vicoustic/RealTraps/GIK room treatments

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10 minutes ago, look&listen said:

Ha ha!

 

IMO cleaning AC power can cost $$$$ hardware, maybe services. But in cost/benefit equation, consider that all electronics improved together- analog, digital, audio, video, &c. B|

 

So far there does seem to be a small consensus on power first.  Is there a benefit from connecting  linear power supplies to a regenerator?

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The ac regenerators are at their heart big amps, and therefore active components.  More passive devices like isolation transformers can have a big impact and get you where you want to be for a lot less money. There are lots of threads CA about these solutions and at least for me, I have no compunction about changing anything in my ac power setup. Mine is a 1000va balanced power transformer with individual floating ground isolation transformers for each lps. The amplifier is direct to the big transformer. I am down to just 3 lpses at the AC to DC conversion level, two for the lps1.2s and one for the Nuc.

Pareto Audio aka nuckleheadaudio

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