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A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming

The Computer Audiophile

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Most important: please realize this thread is about bleeding edge experimentation and discovery. No one has The Answer™. If you are not into tweaking, just know that you can have a musically satisfying system without doing any of the nutty things we do here.

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9 minutes ago, lmitche said:

Yes, polyester fabric.

 

Hard to believe there is ANYTHING between the aluminized layers but apparently enough to be an insulator!

 

Counting both sides of the aluminized fabric as shields, I get 7...

 

2 outer copper;

4 from 2 layers of aluminized fabric;

1 from the copper wrapping each individual conductor;'

____

7 ?!

 

Another point...

While this cable is nominally a quad core having 4 conductors, the fact that they are individually shield would seem to obviate whatever positive attributes are ascribed to the "quad core" construction.

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7 hours ago, BigGuy said:

 

Hard to believe there is ANYTHING between the aluminized layers but apparently enough to be an insulator!

 

Counting both sides of the aluminized fabric as shields, I get 7...

 

2 outer copper;

4 from 2 layers of aluminized fabric;

1 from the copper wrapping each individual conductor;'

____

7 ?!

 

Another point...

While this cable is nominally a quad core having 4 conductors, the fact that they are individually shield would seem to obviate whatever positive attributes are ascribed to the "quad core" construction.

Frank,

 

Thanks for the vivisection. ? Now how does the Gotham sound at your place?

 

Larry


nuckleheadaudio.com

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9 hours ago, lmitche said:

The leads are 23 awg each so x4 ~ 16 awg equivalent.

 Hi Larry

 I have tried a similar cable and the amount of copper is still way less than in a reclaimed length from a mains lead.

 I have tried both and the mains cable version with the John Swenson mod sounds better to me.

( I have only used a short lead though )

 

 Kind Regards

Alex


How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 28-06-2020

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7 minutes ago, sandyk said:

 Hi Larry

 I have tried a similar cable and the amount of copper is still way less than in a reclaimed length from a mains lead.

 I have tried both and the mains cable version with the John Swenson mod sounds better to me.

( I have only used a short lead though )

 

 Kind Regards

Alex

Hi Alex,

 

I am not sure what you tested, but I am pleased that you found something you enjoy.

 

All the best,

 

Larry


nuckleheadaudio.com

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On 7/28/2018 at 2:13 PM, BigGuy said:

Most of you now consider installing braid as old hat.  If you are not one, there are tricks to installing braids (plastic or metal) and I would like to suggest one that works for me...

 

If you position your fingers so those on right hand are at the head of the braid and those on the left are on the trailing portion of the braid similarly to those in this photo...

 

image.thumb.png.c6fad5ce94f5b4eee6901a7350d46e8b.png

 

While holding the head in place, push slowly until you have an expanded section or bulge between your fingers.  Then release the right hand while maintaining grip on left and slowly work the bulge to the right until braid is contracted again.  Then repeat until braid is installed.  Think of installing the braid like the way an inchworm moves...    <

>

...moving its head forward and then having its a$$ catch up!

 

 

 

 

 

image.png

 

 

Agree completely with your inchworm analogy. You described perfectly what I wish I had known before I started sliding the braids onto my Lush. Took a while before I accidentally discovered the inchworm technique (Didn't quite think of it that way at the time) but its the perfect description and avoids what can otherwise be a more frustrating or laborious process than it has to be.

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7 hours ago, BigGuy said:

 

Another point...

While this cable is nominally a quad core having 4 conductors, the fact that they are individually shield would seem to obviate whatever positive attributes are ascribed to the "quad core" construction.

 

Actually, the shielding doesn't cover all effects.  Star quad still benefits in rejecting magnetic interference beyond what shields can do, or so says Benchmark: 

 

https://benchmarkmedia.com/blogs/application_notes/116637511-the-importance-of-star-quad-microphone-cable

 

Quote: 

ELECTROSTATIC SHIELDS DO NOT BLOCK MAGNETIC FIELDS

There are a variety of different balanced microphone cables on the market. All microphone cables are designed to provide shielding against radio-frequency (RF) interference. The conductors are twisted and then wrapped with foil, a spiral of copper wires, or with a full copper braid. Of these, the braided shield is the most effective against electrostatic RF fields. However, none of these electrostatic shields are effective against magnetic interference. They are not magnetic shields!

Foil or copper shields cannot block the magnetic interference produced by devices that are relatively close to the cable. Magnetic fields easily flow through foil and copper shields causing interference.

STAR-QUAD CABLES PROVIDE MAGNETIC IMMUNITY

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32 minutes ago, lmitche said:

Hi Alex,

 

I am not sure what you tested, but I am pleased that you found something you enjoy.

 

All the best,

 

Larry

 Larry

 I suspect that how low the original source impedance is may sometimes come into play here.

Regards

Alex


How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 28-06-2020

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re: layer next to Al

 

- if the voltage is small enough a non-insulator can be sprayed or dipped and will work fine - this is done for certain thermocouples (tho the voltage is in nV) - you can only see thos layers under a microscope

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13 hours ago, lmitche said:

Frank,

 

Thanks for the vivisection. ? Now how does the Gotham sound at your place?

 

Larry

 

No Gotham yet.  Have been fighting a bout of "analysis paralysis" recently but self medication seems to be helping.  ?

Going to start with using Fowler's suggested construction for "superscreened cable"  to treat a double-headed USB cable.  Hopefully it will have a reasonable turn radius!?

BTW, Larry, when you did the 23AWG x 4 construction, did you do 4 conductors for both V+ and V-?

Did you do an octet twist or braid?

I have some 22AWG silver-plated copper which I am thinking about using.

 

13 hours ago, genjamon said:

 

Actually, the shielding doesn't cover all effects.  Star quad still benefits in rejecting magnetic interference beyond what shields can do, or so says Benchmark: 

 

https://benchmarkmedia.com/blogs/application_notes/116637511-the-importance-of-star-quad-microphone-cable

 

Quote: 

ELECTROSTATIC SHIELDS DO NOT BLOCK MAGNETIC FIELDS

There are a variety of different balanced microphone cables on the market. All microphone cables are designed to provide shielding against radio-frequency (RF) interference. The conductors are twisted and then wrapped with foil, a spiral of copper wires, or with a full copper braid. Of these, the braided shield is the most effective against electrostatic RF fields. However, none of these electrostatic shields are effective against magnetic interference. They are not magnetic shields!

Foil or copper shields cannot block the magnetic interference produced by devices that are relatively close to the cable. Magnetic fields easily flow through foil and copper shields causing interference.

STAR-QUAD CABLES PROVIDE MAGNETIC IMMUNITY

 

Interesting and perhaps why Fowler recommended a layer of muMetal between 2 layers of copper braid.

 

13 hours ago, Bruce Orr said:

 

 

Agree completely with your inchworm analogy. You described perfectly what I wish I had known before I started sliding the braids onto my Lush. Took a while before I accidentally discovered the inchworm technique (Didn't quite think of it that way at the time) but its the perfect description and avoids what can otherwise be a more frustrating or laborious process than it has to be.

 

Thanks.  Thought it might help people visualize since "a moving picture is worth a thousand pictures".

One watch-out is that care must be taken to avoid unraveling the braid, particularly if metal.  Plastic braid sheath is less of an issue since ends can be fused with heat.

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1 hour ago, BigGuy said:

 

Interesting and perhaps why Fowler recommended a layer of muMetal between 2 layers of copper braid.

 

Did you decide to use MuMetal as your insulating layer?


 

 

 

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Yes, all 4 conductors in one cable for ve+ and a second cable of all four for ve-. This mimics Cornan who tried it both ways and thought this best.


nuckleheadaudio.com

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1 hour ago, auricgoldfinger said:

 

Did you decide to use MuMetal as your insulating layer?

 

MuMetal being an alloy of Nickel and Iron is a conductor, albeit not a great one...not an insulator.  Since I could not find Conductivities in the same units, the Resistivities of Cu and MuMetal are as follows for comparison:

 

Cu = 1.724 micro ohm - cm

MuM = 47.0 micro ohm - cm

 

Fowler reported that the best construction for durability of the construction was to keep an air gap between the MuM foil and the Cu braid beneath.  Not sure how much affect a small(?) air gap would have as a dielectric/insulator?!  Since I cannot replicate the machine construction Fowler used, I am planning on putting a loosely spaced spiral of 1/4" wide copper foil tape with conductive adhesive below the MuM foil  to simulate the air gap.  Then I plan to put on an outer copper braid directly over the MuM. 

I was not planning on using the two braids in a JSSG360 configuration but did think about attaching an insulated wire head-to-tail, i.e., original JSSG.

IF still bendable at this point, I was planning on adding a braided outer sheath for aesthetics.

image.png.a82322bf7d480ab3c688173697e10ccd.png

 

1 hour ago, lmitche said:

Yes, all 4 conductors in one cable for ve+ and a second cable of all four for ve-. This mimics Cornan who tried it both ways and thought this best.

 

Got it.  Thanks.

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42 minutes ago, BigGuy said:

Since I cannot replicate the machine construction Fowler used, I am planning on putting a loosely spaced spiral of 1/4" wide copper foil tape with conductive adhesive below the MuM foil  to simulate the air gap.  Then I plan to put on an outer copper braid directly over the MuM. 

 

Good luck with the construction!  I hope the turn radius is satisfactory.  Let us know how it turns out.


 

 

 

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I thought I would try the dual Supra DAC cables with a slightly different approach today. I constructed two cables with the drain wires from each cable connected to each other in a full loop as before, but instead of insulating the semi-conductive nylon shield I added copper tape to the conductive side of the nylon shield plus drain wire to the copper tape which in reality would conduct both the shields and the drain wire in a full loop in the shot gun construction. Sounded really aquard and life less. Boomy! I changed one cable back to just the drain wires in a loop and insulated the nylon shields with electrical tape so only the drain wire are in a full loop between the cables and not the nylon shield. Considerably better, so I changed back the other cable as well. Aaaah, music air injected with more details and less boomy bass. Less tense. A relief! 

It seems to me that most of the shielding should really protect -Ve from +Ve and vice verca. Not as much from airborn RFI/EMI. A drain wire loop with separated and isolated semi-conductive shields is what create magic here.

These two cables is connected between the LPS-1.2 and feeder supply (15cm) and between LPS-1.2 and Aqvox switch-8 (8cm). Both with Kemet A750 at the receiving end.


Auralic Aries Mini, Ariston RD40 & Mytek Brooklyn DAC system with Fostex TH900 & Gibson Les Paul 8 reference monitors.                           

Learn from the mistakes of others. You can never live long enough to do them all yourself. Graucho Marx

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8 hours ago, Cornan said:

I thought I would try the dual Supra DAC cables with a slightly different approach today. I constructed two cables with the drain wires from each cable connected to each other in a full loop as before, but instead of insulating the semi-conductive nylon shield I added copper tape to the conductive side of the nylon shield plus drain wire to the copper tape which in reality would conduct both the shields and the drain wire in a full loop in the shot gun construction. Sounded really aquard and life less. Boomy! I changed one cable back to just the drain wires in a loop and insulated the nylon shields with electrical tape so only the drain wire are in a full loop between the cables and not the nylon shield. Considerably better, so I changed back the other cable as well. Aaaah, music air injected with more details and less boomy bass. Less tense. A relief! 

It seems to me that most of the shielding should really protect -Ve from +Ve and vice verca. Not as much from airborn RFI/EMI. A drain wire loop with separated and isolated semi-conductive shields is what create magic here.

These two cables is connected between the LPS-1.2 and feeder supply (15cm) and between LPS-1.2 and Aqvox switch-8 (8cm). Both with Kemet A750 at the receiving end.

You need to start building these experimental cables and devices in mass quantities and try selling them on Superphonica!! You can become the new and improved Ghent ?

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On 7/29/2018 at 2:49 AM, elan120 said:

After making few of the Gotham cables to replace the ones in my system, I want to shout out to @lmitche a BIG THANKS for sharing such a great idea.  Meanwhile, since I don't remember seeing detailed instructions on how it is done, I thought perhaps I should share how I build mine in hope of passing on the benefits I received from this great idea to people want to try DIY this cable.

 

1.  Measure and strip the first isolation layer.  Allow approximate 1/8" (3mm) of spacing between positive soldering tab and back of barrel connector,

20180728_154004.thumb.jpg.12d71269c20b394f348f314b2a547b72.jpg

 

2.  First isolation layer stripped, expose top shield layer.

20180728_154224.thumb.jpg.4c60aed59c0a38a2e3df4ab50d633d71.jpg

 

3.  Pull back top shield layer, expose first inner isolation layer.

20180728_154526.thumb.jpg.76c291789c52111cc135e085d86f1c10.jpg

 

4.  Pull back first inner isolation layer, expose quad cable inside.

40928472_Pullbackinsolationlayer.thumb.jpg.43ee8c71b1cf0568b2bfdf5755ff2211.jpg

 

5.  Cut off cotton wires.

20180728_154916.thumb.jpg.b9221eda55fd7decc76b60077ca6f39f.jpg

 

6.  Cut off quad cable isolation layer.

20180728_155024.thumb.jpg.aeab7c179dd04d042161f182d69960f8.jpg

 

7.  All 4 quad cable isolation layer cut off and inner shield layer pulled back.

20180728_155536.thumb.jpg.fa0cc2db8122ef53370dc85719941465.jpg

 

8.  Stripped all 4 cable tips, prepare for soldering.  Note, negative leads (white) are stripped 2x of positive leads (pink).

20180728_155756.thumb.jpg.88fde180b9cbb2b93d5230a15446c4cb.jpg

 

9.  Twist both positive (pink) and negative (white) leads together and tin them with solder.

20180728_160313.thumb.jpg.821d7b4e5e818d4ede661fc20b57242d.jpg

 

10  Twist both positive and negative wires (optional).

1283815999_Twistingwires.thumb.jpg.f05633bc740d9d4f180dc67117d14da1.jpg

 

11.  Cut negative lead to proper length to fit connector.

20180728_160712.thumb.jpg.924246afeb26d0049b434ecffa85b20c.jpg

 

12.  Tin connector.

20180728_162257.thumb.jpg.1c367c1cf08462ead53c768b0f7c922a.jpg

 

13.  Insert connector shell first and then solder both positive and negative leads.

20180728_162631.thumb.jpg.79f0e541500b660af97184a246c27747.jpg

 

14.  Screw on connector shell.

20180728_162858.thumb.jpg.141f1ee45de9a4130a8516d5e974ceb3.jpg

 

15.  Measure and cut a piece of heat shrink tubing to cover the connector shell shoulder and the rest of quad cable.

20180728_222059.thumb.jpg.2af654b7833e4d59cb12071b4693a3f3.jpg

 

16.  Heat shrink tubing installed.

20180728_222245.thumb.jpg.2defdd35f3f4928ea1642fadd561c2e6.jpg

 

17.  Move all shield wires forward, cut to proper length, and measure connectivity between shield and barrel connector body to make sure no electrical contact.

20180728_223035.thumb.jpg.0880fb55f3660132f3007ad77ac8a44c.jpg

 

18.  Measure connectivity between positive and negative on barrel connector to make sure no electrical contact.

20180728_223125.thumb.jpg.a6f5c487904dad8983bde9850fb6005a.jpg

 

20.  Cut a piece of heat shrink tubing to cover shield cables.

20180728_223301.thumb.jpg.628eebd13b90f18657b7c8d4ef2ed5d6.jpg

 

21.  Heat shrink tubing installed.

20180728_223501.thumb.jpg.652666e8da8d1cf715a1978f381b384c.jpg

 

22.  Cut final heat shrink tubing to cover both barrel connector shoulder and Gotham cable outer isolation layer.

20180728_223628.thumb.jpg.4fdddb63d66899ce5de983ee05e2996f.jpg

 

23.  Heat shrink tubing installed.

20180728_223826.thumb.jpg.5bbc957d4fb392a2bf22b102377047f2.jpg

 

24.  Install needed connector spacers.  You are now done on this side, go work on the other side, use the new cable in your system, and don't forgot to let us know what you think about this new cable.

20180728_224406.thumb.jpg.743af33826684171eb3e9eaa23010a92.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

Does anyone know if the new Ghent Gotham DC cable uses the same basic technique (for people like me that lack soldering skills) ? 

If Ghent is doing the same as @Elan120 shows hownto DYI, that’s probably the best choice for me (unless I could make the same using screw down DC connectors? )

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2 hours ago, agladstone said:

You need to start building these experimental cables and devices in mass quantities and try selling them on Superphonica!! You can become the new and improved Ghent ?

 

Considering how slow I am with a soldering iron and how my experimental cables looks I would’nt sell many! I would end up broke with burnt finger tips! ?


Auralic Aries Mini, Ariston RD40 & Mytek Brooklyn DAC system with Fostex TH900 & Gibson Les Paul 8 reference monitors.                           

Learn from the mistakes of others. You can never live long enough to do them all yourself. Graucho Marx

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From anyone who wants to take a break from DIY DC cables, I've done a Habst USB short review with some unusual bandwidth discovery. It's here :

 

 

 

Got the Habst during the clock cable group buy organised in this thread some months back.

 

The Habst USB shares the same family sound as the clock cable. Lots of details without being bright and retaining body and warmth.

 

I compared it with the Curious USB and will add a Lush USB comparison shortly.

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On 7/28/2018 at 5:26 PM, mozes said:

If you can get the same 16 awg, then go for the OCC copper. In fact, I prefer the 14AWG OCC copper to 16AWG OCC silver, but that's me. I like full body vocals and an expansive sound stage which I find that OCC copper excels with these attributes.

 

I've decided to go for star quad 18AWG Neotech copper. For the amount I need to constuct a 0.5M DC cable, 4 x 18 AWG will cost me less than 2 x 14AWG, and has a fractionally higher current rating, and the star quad should theoretically give better performance than twisted pair.

 

Whether I'll notice these small difference is another matter, but my main objective is to see if I can get better peformance at a lower cost than my PH 6XL silver cables (I bought 2 of these with my 3-rail SR7, with a view to building my own for the 3rd rail).

 

 

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20 hours ago, BigGuy said:

 

MuMetal being an alloy of Nickel and Iron is a conductor, albeit not a great one...not an insulator.  Since I could not find Conductivities in the same units, the Resistivities of Cu and MuMetal are as follows for comparison:

 

Cu = 1.724 micro ohm - cm

MuM = 47.0 micro ohm - cm

 

Fowler reported that the best construction for durability of the construction was to keep an air gap between the MuM foil and the Cu braid beneath.  Not sure how much affect a small(?) air gap would have as a dielectric/insulator?!  Since I cannot replicate the machine construction Fowler used, I am planning on putting a loosely spaced spiral of 1/4" wide copper foil tape with conductive adhesive below the MuM foil  to simulate the air gap.  Then I plan to put on an outer copper braid directly over the MuM. 

I was not planning on using the two braids in a JSSG360 configuration but did think about attaching an insulated wire head-to-tail, i.e., original JSSG.

IF still bendable at this point, I was planning on adding a braided outer sheath for aesthetics.

image.png.a82322bf7d480ab3c688173697e10ccd.png

 

 

Got it.  Thanks.

Have you found a source for thin mumetal shield ?

I have been using 0.1mm film but this is very thick and not very practical as it make the cable too stiff 


PCserver Supermicro X11SAA under Daphile  ,Jcat pcie net card ,Etherregen,e-red dock endpoint,powered by LPS 1.2 , SPS 500 , Sean Jacobs level 3 psu,  DAC Audiomat Maestro 3, Nagra Classic Amp , Hattor passive preamplifier , Martin Logan montis

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5 hours ago, flkin said:

From anyone who wants to take a break from DIY DC cables, I've done a Habst USB short review with some unusual bandwidth discovery. It's here :

 

 

 

Got the Habst during the clock cable group buy organised in this thread some months back.

 

The Habst USB shares the same family sound as the clock cable. Lots of details without being bright and retaining body and warmth.

 

I compared it with the Curious USB and will add a Lush USB comparison shortly.

Looking expectantly for the comparison between Lush and Habst USB cables.

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43 minutes ago, jean-michel6 said:

Have you found a source for thin mumetal shield ?

I have been using 0.1mm film but this is very thick and not very practical as it make the cable too stiff 

 

Bought mine here...

 

http://custommagneticshielding.magneticshield.com/viewitems/mumetal-sheet-and-foil/mumetal-foil

 

IIRC they have a $100 minimum.  I bought 0.002, 8" wide, non-adhesive which I plan to slit to ~2" for spiraling around cable.

They also sell MuM braid.

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2 hours ago, TheAttorney said:

 

I've decided to go for star quad 18AWG Neotech copper. For the amount I need to constuct a 0.5M DC cable, 4 x 18 AWG will cost me less than 2 x 14AWG, and has a fractionally higher current rating, and the star quad should theoretically give better performance than twisted pair.

 

Whether I'll notice these small difference is another matter, but my main objective is to see if I can get better peformance at a lower cost than my PH 6XL silver cables (I bought 2 of these with my 3-rail SR7, with a view to building my own for the 3rd rail).

 

 

I didn't buy any of these silver cables from PH for my SR7 MR4 so as to build to minimum length needed in my system,.  I built 4 XLR cables as JS 360 with Canare 6S which is 17 AWG overall and star quad .  These are DC power cables only.  I don't buy into the need for OCC copper or silver.  I do buy into the notion that these cables are antennas and we need to prevent RF intrusion (JS 360) and large gauge/shortest length possible for lower impedance.  I want neutrality throughout my chords.  

Will be interesting to hear of your findings.  Is that 4 separate 18 AWG conductors?  Wow, that will be one thick cable at 15 AWG star quad.  Gets tough to work with as the gauge goes lower.  

I also had success with my SATA cable by applying the 360, a small improvement, I would imagine due to RF reduction.  Each cable done 360 is bringing the fight against RF, next I will do the clocking cables and analog speaker cables.


(JRiver) Jetway barebones NUC (mod 3 sCLK-EX, Cybershaft OP 14)  (PH SR7) => mini pcie adapter to PCIe 1X => tXUSBexp PCIe card (mod sCLK-EX) (PH SR7) => (USPCB) Chord DAVE => Omega Super 8XRS/REL t5i  (All powered thru Topaz Isolation Transformer)

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On 6/17/2018 at 1:35 AM, mozes said:

The Oyaide DC plug can handle a max of 14AWG so beyond that you need to go over the edge and get rid of the outer barrel connector and literally butcher the plug. I don’t recommend it as it is not safe and the cable doesn’t look neat as well.

the largest experimental DC cable that I built is 10 AWG, I have cables that range from 10AWG all the way to 18AWG and I find that gauge comes first followed by conductor quality. JSSG 360 tweak takes DC cables to another level. 

 

Is the Oyaide DC connector the best available, and does anyone have a good North American source?  They're available on Ebay for about $17 ea.


Digital chain: Synology DS1815+ -> Modified Buffalo switch-> SOtM sNH-10G-> Custom Audiolinux server (sCLK-EX modified motherboard, Mutec REF 10)-> EtherRegen-> AL NUC NA (sCLK-EX modified)->  Holo Spring L3 -> Audio Research LS28-> Benchmark AHB2 -> Paradigm Persona 9H, JL Fathom sub

Power: Paul Hynes SR7, Uptone LPS-1.2, sPS-500, Topaz 91001-31 Isolation Transformer

Analog chain: VPI Prime with Ortofon Quintet Black cart -> Simaudio Neo 310LP-> Audio Research LS28-> Benchmark AHB2 -> Paradigm Persona 9H

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