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A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming


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Most important: please realize this thread is about bleeding edge experimentation and discovery. No one has The Answer™. If you are not into tweaking, just know that you can have a musically satisfying system without doing any of the nutty things we do here.

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7 minutes ago, marce said:

Its a multi rail switch mode...

The controller data sheet.

http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/lm2642.pdf

There are other point of load supplies on the board, usually around the DDR memory, how many and type will depend on the motherboard. The important thing for noise is local POL supplies, with isolated power island, generic motherboards tend to skimp on these where possible to save money, whereas instrumentation and the like will go to great lengths to design and control the power delivery system to get the best low noise design, more costly due to increased component count and complexity. The stability of the voltages is critical to low noise operation, a low impedance supply at the required frequencies is required, impedance is the enemy here mainly inductive, it slows the current delivery down, so short leads are in order.

 

Marce, what is your opinion of the TI controller?

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Let me have a good read of the data sheet, but its all down to implementation, I like those atx supplies, 6 layers means plenty of grounds for shielding. Layout is everything, controlling and minimising the switching loops is where the art is, and correct layout of the feedback.

 

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17 minutes ago, austinpop said:

In one case, we have the TLS switch, with its internal, relatively-modest cost and performance OCXO - I believe they use milspec OCXOs - while in the other case, we have my Zyxel switch, clocked by an expensive sCLK-EX card, in turn disciplined by an even more expensive Mutec Ref 10.

 

I'll be very interested in  comparisons of the SOtM switch with and without the sCLK-EX/master clock vs. the Uptone and TLS offerings.

 

 

 

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4 hours ago, auricgoldfinger said:

 

I'll be very interested in  comparisons of the SOtM switch with and without the sCLK-EX/master clock vs. the Uptone and TLS offerings.

 

Yeah +1 on this. I look forward to seeing some sort of bake off when these are available.

 

I know our friends at UpTone are busy in research mode. Does anyone have any info on the SOtM timeline? 

 

Also selfishly speaking I'd like to know how the Aqvox switches compare. 

 

Cheers, 

Alan 

Synergistic Research Powercell UEF SE > Sonore OpticalModule (LPS-1.2 & DXP-1A5DSC) > EtherRegen (SR4T & DXP-1A5DSC) > (Sablon 2020 LAN) Innuos PhoenixNet > Muon Streaming System > Grimm Audio MU1 server > (Sablon AES) Mola Mola Tambaqui DAC > PS Audio M1200 monoblocks > Salk Sound Supercharged Songtowers

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6 hours ago, BigAlMc said:

 

Yeah +1 on this. I look forward to seeing some sort of bake off when these are available.

 

I know our friends at UpTone are busy in research mode. Does anyone have any info on the SOtM timeline? 

 

Also selfishly speaking I'd like to know how the Aqvox switches compare. 

 

Cheers, 

Alan 

Yep, this is the next hot development.. Looking forward to the results. I have the original Aqvox switch and probably one of the best purchase Ive made, so much that I gave up on local files..

Topaz 2.5Kva Isolation Transformer > EtherRegen switch powered by Paul Hynes SR4 LPS >MacBook Pro 2013 > EC Designs PowerDac SX > TNT UBYTE-2 Speaker cables > Omega Super Alnico Monitors > 2x Rel T Zero Subwoofers. 

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13 hours ago, austinpop said:

Wow, there was a nice step up in SQ.

This is significant.  You're saying the TLS switch sounds better than your SOtM modded Zyxel switch, even with a REF10 on the sCLK-EX that's in your tX-USBultra?  And even better with an LPS-1.2 or SR4?

 

Is it as big a step up in SQ as initially adding the SOtM modded switch (clocked by sCLK-EX in the tX-USBultra) to your trifecta?

 

What are the DC input requirements of the TLS switch?  TLS should consider selling the switch without their own LPS.

Pareto Audio AMD 7700 Server --> Berkeley Alpha USB --> Jeff Rowland Aeris --> Jeff Rowland 625 S2 --> Focal Utopia 3 Diablos with 2 x Focal Electra SW 1000 BE subs

 

i7-6700K/Windows 10  --> EVGA Nu Audio Card --> Focal CMS50's 

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2 hours ago, tapatrick said:

Yep, this is the next hot development.. Looking forward to the results. I have the original Aqvox switch and probably one of the best purchase Ive made, so much that I gave up on local files..

I also gave on local files stored in an USB hard disk. Not sure if I need to get a NAS to have the same SQ that I get from a switch. Any views? Tks.

 

Jensen VRD-iFF>Router>Rj45>opticalModule>
SFP>Buffalo2016>SFP>opticalModule >Rj45>

IZen Mk3>Rj45> Delock62619>Rj45>
etherRegen (Master Clock+ Mini-Circuits BLP)>SFP>opticalRendu>USB>IsoRegen>

USB>Phoenix>USB>OPPO 205 (Modded)>HMS “the Perfect Match”>Proac Tablette Reference 8 Signature.
 

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1 hour ago, soares said:

I also gave on local files stored in an USB hard disk. Not sure if I need to get a NAS to have the same SQ that I get from a switch. Any views? Tks.

 

I don't have any experience with a NAS, and wouldn't have any need personally as I only have a small local library and now only listen to Tidal/Roon. With a high quality switch/router the SQ quality is superb, so I am interested in potential for upgrading this with the upcoming products.

Topaz 2.5Kva Isolation Transformer > EtherRegen switch powered by Paul Hynes SR4 LPS >MacBook Pro 2013 > EC Designs PowerDac SX > TNT UBYTE-2 Speaker cables > Omega Super Alnico Monitors > 2x Rel T Zero Subwoofers. 

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16 hours ago, austinpop said:
  • Using this OCXO router instead of the OCXO switch yielded a similar SQ.

Are you able to test the wifi sound quality of this router?

As per another thread, I'm considering this router as a combination of 4-way switch and wireless bridge near my hifi, which is too far from my broadband modem/router to use  an ethernet cable in any WAF acceptable manner - as long as the the wireless aspect doesn't compromise SQ.

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2 hours ago, rickca said:

This is significant.  You're saying the TLS switch sounds better than your SOtM modded Zyxel switch, even with a REF10 on the sCLK-EX that's in your tX-USBultra?  And even better with an LPS-1.2 or SR4?

 

Yes. 

 

We've discussed this possibility, right? That a local OCXO of modest quality within mm of the target circuit may sound better than a world class clock topology that involves 100s of mm of cable, not to mention a reference clocked, frequency-synthesized, clock generator.

 

Quote

Is it as big a step up in SQ as initially adding the SOtM modded switch (clocked by sCLK-EX in the tX-USBultra) to your trifecta?

 

Ugh - I knew someone would ask that. ;) I want to say no. The no switch -> modded switch transition was bigger than the modded switch -> OCXO switch. 

 

Quote

What are the DC input requirements of the TLS switch? 

 

Well, the LPS that comes with it is set at 9V, so I mimicked it. I'm sure the current requirements are modest.

 

Quote

TLS should consider selling the switch without their own LPS.

 

I've asked them to consider it.

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18 minutes ago, TheAttorney said:

Are you able to test the wifi sound quality of this router?

As per another thread, I'm considering this router as a combination of 4-way switch and wireless bridge near my hifi, which is too far from my broadband modem/router to use  an ethernet cable in any WAF acceptable manner - as long as the the wireless aspect doesn't compromise SQ.

 

Well, since it's "The Attorney" asking, I'll try to be very precise, Counselor! :D

 

In all seriousness, I really should be clear about how I tested the OCXO router. In my house, the router lives on another floor on the opposite end of the house. This is where the CATV coax makes ingress into the house. I have a networking panel, to which all RJ-45 outlets throughout the house have Cat 5e runs. The ingress CATV connects to a broadband modem, which then connects to my router, which then drives a tree network of switches, to which my devices connect. I also suppress wi-fi on this router, and instead run another router centrally in the house, configured purely as a WAP.

 

I did not want to disrupt any of this in my evaluation of the TLS OCXO router. I would have to disrupt my topology drastically to place the router in my listening room. So instead, I configured the TLS router to be another switch by going into the GUI and:

  • turning off all wi-fi
  • disabling DHCP and NAT
  • changing the IP address to a unique static address in my current router's address space

I think this gets us close to evaluating the audio characteristics of the clocking, the LPS, the circuit design etc. Admittedly, enabling full router and WAP functionality may change the characteristics, but if anything, it will probably sound worse. My experiment was, in my opinion, the best case performance. In any case, that was as far as I was willing to go without disrupting my network.

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16 minutes ago, rjzman said:

TLS  also offered the option to post a review and receive a  cat 8 ethernet cable to use with the device. - great incentive considering the cost of such cables by the competitors.

Thanks for this disclosure.

Pareto Audio AMD 7700 Server --> Berkeley Alpha USB --> Jeff Rowland Aeris --> Jeff Rowland 625 S2 --> Focal Utopia 3 Diablos with 2 x Focal Electra SW 1000 BE subs

 

i7-6700K/Windows 10  --> EVGA Nu Audio Card --> Focal CMS50's 

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38 minutes ago, rickca said:

Thanks for this disclosure.

 

For the record, I have no such arrangement. Adrian simply sent his equipment for my evaluation and opinion, and I will be sending it back at some point soon.

 

I did ask him if he wanted private feedback only, or if I could also post my findings. He was fine with the latter.

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On 19/05/2018 at 12:53 AM, austinpop said:

As far as PSUs - being the curious sort, I swapped out the included LPS with both the LPS-1.2 and the SR-4, in turn. Both of these LPSes had a significant SQ boost over the included LPS. Adrian has asked me to allow a couple more weeks of burn in on his LPS and try the comparison again.

 

Interesting. A few weeks ago I asked Adrian for the option of dropping the included PSU (as I had an SR7 incoming), he declined. I got the impression that this was because he genuinely considered his PSU to be the best match that customers were likely to find. This test suggests otherwise, so I hope Adrian reconsiders this option - should shave at least a couple of hundred $ off the price.

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3 hours ago, TheAttorney said:

Interesting. A few weeks ago I asked Adrian for the option of dropping

 

I know it ain't the nicest thing to say (especially in public) but I just couldn't help myself because this is way too funny

 

aOM1f3k.jpg

 

So, where did I get the inspiration?

 

awRQT6y.jpg

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I would be interested if anybody’s compared the sound of the TLS switch to a Cisco 2960? These can be picked up used for about $30 and the sound quality is night and day compared to a Netgear, even with an LPS and JSGT. 

SERVER CLOSET (in office directly below living room stereo):NUC 7i5BNH with Roon ROCK (ZeroZone 12V on the NUC)>Cisco 2690L-16PS switch>Sonore opticalModule (Uptone LPS 1.2)>

LIVING ROOM: Sonore opticalRendu Roon version (Sonore Power Supply)> Shunyata Venom USB>Naim DAC V1>Witchhat DIN>Naim NAP 160 Bolt Down>Chord Rumor 2>Audio Physic Compact Classics. OFFICE: opticalModule> Sonore microRendu 1.4> Matrix Mini-i Pro 3> Naim NAP 110>NACA5>KEF Ls50's. BJC 6a and Ghent Catsnake 6a JSSG ethernet; AC cables: Shunyata Venom NR V-10; Audience Forte F3; Ice Age copper/copper; Sean Jacobs CHC PowerBlack, Moon Audio DIN>RCA, USB A>C. Isolation: Herbie's Audio Lab. 

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4 hours ago, charlesphoto said:

I would be interested if anybody’s compared the sound of the TLS switch to a Cisco 2960? These can be picked up used for about $30 and the sound quality is night and day compared to a Netgear, even with an LPS and JSGT. 

Is this Cisco on ‘the list’ of JS-approved off the shelf switches?

macmini M1>ethernet / elgar iso tran(2.5kVa, .0005pfd)>consonance pw-3 boards>ghent ethernet(et linkway cat8 jssg360)>etherRegen(js-2)>ghent ethernet(et linkway cat8 jssg360) >ultraRendu (clones lpsu>lps1.2)>curious regen link>rme adi-2 dac(js-2)>cawsey cables>naquadria sp2 passive pre> 1.naquadria lucien mkII.5 power>elac fs249be + elac 4pi plus.2> 2.perreaux9000b(mods)>2x naquadria 12” passive subs.

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On 5/21/2018 at 9:38 AM, charlesphoto said:

I would be interested if anybody’s compared the sound of the TLS switch to a Cisco 2960? These can be picked up used for about $30 and the sound quality is night and day compared to a Netgear, even with an LPS and JSGT. 

 

I could find two clocks from the pictures below, most likely that should be quite a bargain once we replace both clocks?

 

http://youtu.be/HJLqF7Gg5WQ

http://youtu.be/VyvxMbIFJGo

h3rBTvm.jpg 6yQb1m6.jpg

 

Once we've figured out what the voltage of 341-0208-01 really is, it should be fairly easy to power that with something better than the default SMPS

 

Cisco Power Supply 341-0208-01 for WS-C2960-8TC-L
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Cisco-Power-Supply-341-0208-01-for-WS-C2960-8TC-L-/361750014670

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I wonder how the 2960 compares to the Cisco SG300 series which I have.  

12TB NAS >> i7-6700 Server/Control PC >> i3-5015u NAA >> Singxer SU-1 DDC (modded) >> Holo Spring L3 DAC >> Accustic Arts Power 1 int amp >> Sonus Faber Guaneri Evolution speakers + REL T/5i sub (x2)

 

Other components:

UpTone Audio LPS1.2/IsoRegen, Fiber Switch and FMC, Windows Server 2016 OS, Audiophile Optimizer 3.0, Fidelizer Pro 6, HQ Player, Roonserver, PS Audio P3 AC regenerator, HDPlex 400W ATX & 200W Linear PSU, Light Harmonic Lightspeed Split USB cable, Synergistic Research Tungsten AC power cords, Tara Labs The One speaker cables, Tara Labs The Two Extended with HFX Station IC, Oyaide R1 outlets, Stillpoints Ultra Mini footers, Hi-Fi Tuning fuses, Vicoustic/RealTraps/GIK room treatments

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On 5/20/2018 at 9:38 PM, charlesphoto said:

I would be interested if anybody’s compared the sound of the TLS switch to a Cisco 2960? These can be picked up used for about $30 and the sound quality is night and day compared to a Netgear, even with an LPS and JSGT. 

 

46 minutes ago, seeteeyou said:

 

I could find two clocks from the pictures below, most likely that should be quite a bargain once we replace both clocks?

 

http://youtu.be/HJLqF7Gg5WQ

http://youtu.be/VyvxMbIFJGo

h3rBTvm.jpg 6yQb1m6.jpg

 

Once we've figured out what the voltage of 341-0208-01 really is, it should be fairly easy to power that with something better than the default SMPS

 

Cisco Power Supply 341-0208-01 for WS-C2960-8TC-L
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Cisco-Power-Supply-341-0208-01-for-WS-C2960-8TC-L-/361750014670

 

37 minutes ago, tboooe said:

I wonder how the 2960 compares to the Cisco SG300 series which I have.  

 

The TLS has an OCXO clock and LPS. As CTU has pointed out, those need to be replaced on the Cisco for it to be competitive. I suspect the Cisco would be superior if those changes were made, but you never know. 

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I looked at Table A-7 Catalyst 2960-8TC-L, 2960G-8TC-L, 2960-8TC-S, and 2960PD-8TT-L Switch Specifications below, all 8-port models seemed to share VERY low current draw that's under 1A 

 

https://www.cisco.com/c/en/us/td/docs/switches/lan/catalyst2960/hardware/installation/guide/2960_hg/higspec.html

Quote

48 VDC, 0.3 A (Catalyst 2960PD-8TT-L)

 

In other words, it's fair safe to assume that all 8-port models should require 48V and obviously it wouldn't be any good for stuff like LPS-1.2 or LT3045 etc.

 

A single piece of LT3045 could only output up to 15V @ 0.5A so we'll need at least 4 of them (12V) in series

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/LT3045-S-Ultralow-noise-0-8-Vrms-LDO-linear-regulator-0V-15V-500mA-Fixed-out/253397942111

 

So we're talking about 23 × 4 = $92 for a few LT3045 in series and then roughly 30 bucks for Cisco Catalyst 2960PD-8TT-L respectively.

 

$55 for an OCXO @ 25MHz that's the same as we're getting from TLS, plus the costs of clock mods while adding another piece of LT3045

 

https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/connor-winfield/OH4610LF-025.0M/CW899-ND/5641634

 

Finally there's one more clock to mod and most likely that's meant for the CPU itself? It's hard to tell what the frequency is since those pictures weren't exactly clear enough, though either Neutrino 2 or Neutron Star 2 might be good to go

 

http://www.newclassd.com/index.php?page=24
http://www.newclassd.com/index.php?page=200

 

Since it only costs $30 or so, maybe it's actually a better idea to find out what kinda regulators did Cisco put inside their 2960 series since they're probably dropping all the way from 48V to a much lower voltage. End-of-Support Date turned out to be the end of July 2018 and just wondering if they're still willing to answer such an "odd" question like that?

 

https://www.cisco.com/c/en/us/support/switches/catalyst-2960-8tc-l-compact-switch/model.html

https://www.cisco.com/c/en/us/support/switches/catalyst-2960-8tc-s-compact-switch/model.html

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