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A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming


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Most important: please realize this thread is about bleeding edge experimentation and discovery. No one has The Answer™. If you are not into tweaking, just know that you can have a musically satisfying system without doing any of the nutty things we do here.

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2 hours ago, Johnseye said:

I did.  An ASRock Z270M-ITX/ac.  SOtM modified the system and LAN clocks, same as my last board, but they also changed out 8 capacitors with this one.

OK that's a very nice motherboard.  How do you go from 6W to 91W without changing the power supply?  I understand you're now using the HDPlex 400W Hi-Fi DC-ATX converter.  What SR7 rail are you using with it, and what SR7 rail are you using for the 8-pin connector?

 

So from memory, how does the new server sound compared to your original sCLK-EX server?

 

I think you're the first to report feedback about using sCLK-EX with a motherboard that can handle a 91W CPU.  I've been curious about the feasibility of doing this for a while.

 

 

Pareto Audio AMD 7700 Server --> Berkeley Alpha USB --> Jeff Rowland Aeris --> Jeff Rowland 625 S2 --> Focal Utopia 3 Diablos with 2 x Focal Electra SW 1000 BE subs

 

i7-6700K/Windows 10  --> EVGA Nu Audio Card --> Focal CMS50's 

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6 hours ago, Johnseye said:

It's remarkable how handily the 7700K breezes through the upsampling.  It never skips a beat...or a drops out.  The buffer can be run at low latency.  All the problems I experienced with the Celeron are gone.  The difference is the processor.  I'm using all the same power supplies so no need for an atx psu.

That's great to hear and I'm pleased it's worked out so well, you are the first to bridge the gap between high power and sCLK ex user :) camps

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5 hours ago, rickca said:

OK that's a very nice motherboard.  How do you go from 6W to 91W without changing the power supply?  I understand you're now using the HDPlex 400W Hi-Fi DC-ATX converter.  What SR7 rail are you using with it, and what SR7 rail are you using for the 8-pin connector?

 

So from memory, how does the new server sound compared to your original sCLK-EX server?

 

I think you're the first to report feedback about using sCLK-EX with a motherboard that can handle a 91W CPU.  I've been curious about the feasibility of doing this for a while.

 

 

John, congrats!  Nice to hear it all come together.  I too am curious, have you used the same power rail for the cpu and hdplex? If you can split them, with the high current 12 volt one on the cpu, you will be rewarded.

Pareto Audio aka nuckleheadaudio

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7 hours ago, rickca said:

OK that's a very nice motherboard.  How do you go from 6W to 91W without changing the power supply?  I understand you're now using the HDPlex 400W Hi-Fi DC-ATX converter.  What SR7 rail are you using with it, and what SR7 rail are you using for the 8-pin connector?

 

So from memory, how does the new server sound compared to your original sCLK-EX server?

 

I think you're the first to report feedback about using sCLK-EX with a motherboard that can handle a 91W CPU.  I've been curious about the feasibility of doing this for a while.

 

 

 

2 hours ago, lmitche said:

John, congrats!  Nice to hear it all come together.  I too am curious, have you used the same power rail for the cpu and hdplex? If you can split them, with the high current 12 volt one on the cpu, you will be rewarded.

 

Yes. same rail on the SR7.   The nice thing about the SR7 is that you can raise/lower the voltage with a potentiometer.  I didn't have to use the potentiometer because rail 1 of the SR7 has 2 outputs, one is a 12v @5A double regulated and the other is 19v @10A.  So I just moved the cable over.  I did initially use the 12v on the board with the 35w CPU and everything booted.  I then switched it to 19v.  I don't think I can use the 12v side anymore and would be concerned about undervolting.

 

The HDPlex converter takes the SR7 feed and splits it to the 24 pin ATX and 8pin CPU.  I could potentially use the SR7 12v but A. I'm not sure about the amperage yet and B the wattage wouldn't be able to exceed 60w.  With a 91w CPU that is very unlikely, although I know I never put a full load on the CPU.

 

The i7 7700K runs at about 30% when processing DSD512 and 7% when processing PCM 384.  This tells me it's more about the processing speed than the power.  The i7 7700K starts at 4.2 and increases to 4.5.  When I checked it was at around 4.3 with DSD512.  The 7700T only goes up to 3.8 and the regular 7700 goes up to 4.2.

 

From memory, how does it sound?  Honestly, there is no negative impact going from a 6w TDP to 91w processor that I can hear yet.  I do need to put my old DAC in line for a true comparison.  I've been waiting to discuss my findings and am being reserved in my response here.

 

This is the wattage of my SR7.

 

Rail 1 set to 19v – 190W
Rail 1 set to 12v – 60W
Rail 2 set to 12v – 36W
Rail 2 set to 9v – 27W
Rail 2 set to 5v – 15W

 

 

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25 minutes ago, Johnseye said:

Honestly, there is no negative impact going from a 6w TDP to 91w processor that I can hear yet.

Yet designers of servers and streamers say higher frequency processors generate more noise.  Antipodes is running its new CX at half speed for this reason.  Your input is very encouraging.  

Pareto Audio AMD 7700 Server --> Berkeley Alpha USB --> Jeff Rowland Aeris --> Jeff Rowland 625 S2 --> Focal Utopia 3 Diablos with 2 x Focal Electra SW 1000 BE subs

 

i7-6700K/Windows 10  --> EVGA Nu Audio Card --> Focal CMS50's 

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3 minutes ago, rickca said:

Yet designers of servers and streamers say higher frequency processors generate more noise.  Antipodes is running its new CX at half speed for this reason.  Your input is very encouraging.  

 

I think they do generate more noise, I just can't hear it because the other improvements outweigh it.  It's a trade-off.  Accepting more noise in order to gain better SQ through upsampling, or by being able to process native high res files.  There aren't that many 512 or 384 files out there so that really is an insignificant factor.  Upsampling is the factor, and upsampling with a NOS DAC where HQPlayer controls all of the upsampling is a contributor.  I couldn't say how much.  I'm guessing each DAC has its own manner of dealing with the feed and its own filtering/upsampling going on.

 

The change I've made is significant.  The SQ has vastly improved, but I changed a lot.  I will strip it down to just the motherboard/proc by putting my AA DAC inline and pulling out the REF 10.  Then I'll put the REF 10 back inline.  Then I can give you a better comparison as to how much noise the 91w proc @ 4.2GHz contributes vs the 6w @ 2.24GHz.  I will also say that my server is much more stable now.  The Celeron had issues doing many things with HQPlayer.  The buffer was always maxed and it took a long time to fill it.  Roon was incredibly slow when it analyzed new music.  These are minor things, but were a little frustrating to deal with.

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56 minutes ago, Johnseye said:

 

 

Yes. same rail on the SR7.   The nice thing about the SR7 is that you can raise/lower the voltage with a potentiometer.  I didn't have to use the potentiometer because rail 1 of the SR7 has 2 outputs, one is a 12v @5A double regulated and the other is 19v @10A.  So I just moved the cable over.  I did initially use the 12v on the board with the 35w CPU and everything booted.  I then switched it to 19v.  I don't think I can use the 12v side anymore and would be concerned about undervolting.

 

The HDPlex converter takes the SR7 feed and splits it to the 24 pin ATX and 8pin CPU.  I could potentially use the SR7 12v but A. I'm not sure about the amperage yet and B the wattage wouldn't be able to exceed 60w.  With a 91w CPU that is very unlikely, although I know I never put a full load on the CPU.

 

The i7 7700K runs at about 30% when processing DSD512 and 7% when processing PCM 384.  This tells me it's more about the processing speed than the power.  The i7 7700K starts at 4.2 and increases to 4.5.  When I checked it was at around 4.3 with DSD512.  The 7700T only goes up to 3.8 and the regular 7700 goes up to 4.2.

 

From memory, how does it sound?  Honestly, there is no negative impact going from a 6w TDP to 91w processor that I can hear yet.  I do need to put my old DAC in line for a true comparison.  I've been waiting to discuss my findings and am being reserved in my response here.

 

This is the wattage of my SR7.

 

Rail 1 set to 19v – 190W
Rail 1 set to 12v – 60W
Rail 2 set to 12v – 36W
Rail 2 set to 9v – 27W
Rail 2 set to 5v – 15W

 

 

Hi John,

 

Thanks, this does indeed tell the story.  You would need at least 8 amps, and probably more at peak, at 12 volts to supply the 8 pin molex feeding power to the cpu. I use an ATX supply for this with huge overkill at 1600 watts. You could try the same with a good 600 ATX power supply. The three of us that already have done this were shocked with the results. You will need to use a test connector in the 24 pin atx socket to get this working.

 

I'm not surprised you hear no degradation from the higher wattage pc setup. While upsampling to dsd512 my machine draws around 65 watts at 12 volts from the cpu supply, 25 watts from the 19 volt atx supply. This is less then a 100 watt light bulb and isn't really a crazy amount of current by any standard.

 

I have done the JSSG thing to the cpu and internal ATX cabling with improved SQ. If anything, it is the high speed switching of the digital circuitry and changing power demand that may cause emi/RFI in the cabling and hence audible noise.

 

 

Pareto Audio aka nuckleheadaudio

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2 minutes ago, lmitche said:

You will need to use a test connector in the 24 pin atx socket to get this working.

 

 

What do you mean by test connector?  I have an ATX PSU with 8pin I could use.  Does the PSU not provide a correct source to the 8pin without the 24pin connected?

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56 minutes ago, Johnseye said:

 

 

Yes. same rail on the SR7.   The nice thing about the SR7 is that you can raise/lower the voltage with a potentiometer.  I didn't have to use the potentiometer because rail 1 of the SR7 has 2 outputs, one is a 12v @5A double regulated and the other is 19v @10A.  So I just moved the cable over.  I did initially use the 12v on the board with the 35w CPU and everything booted.  I then switched it to 19v.  I don't think I can use the 12v side anymore and would be concerned about undervolting.

 

The HDPlex converter takes the SR7 feed and splits it to the 24 pin ATX and 8pin CPU.  I could potentially use the SR7 12v but A. I'm not sure about the amperage yet and B the wattage wouldn't be able to exceed 60w.  With a 91w CPU that is very unlikely, although I know I never put a full load on the CPU.

 

The i7 7700K runs at about 30% when processing DSD512 and 7% when processing PCM 384.  This tells me it's more about the processing speed than the power.  The i7 7700K starts at 4.2 and increases to 4.5.  When I checked it was at around 4.3 with DSD512.  The 7700T only goes up to 3.8 and the regular 7700 goes up to 4.2.

 

From memory, how does it sound?  Honestly, there is no negative impact going from a 6w TDP to 91w processor that I can hear yet.  I do need to put my old DAC in line for a true comparison.  I've been waiting to discuss my findings and am being reserved in my response here.

 

This is the wattage of my SR7.

 

Rail 1 set to 19v – 190W
Rail 1 set to 12v – 60W
Rail 2 set to 12v – 36W
Rail 2 set to 9v – 27W
Rail 2 set to 5v – 15W

 

 

This is very encouraging news indeed, and I hope to follow this path further.  To clarify my understanding correctly, is the SR7 connected to HDPlex converter (HDPlex 400W HiFi DC-ATX), and then connected to the new MB?  If this is the correct understanding, I wonder if the output noise level from HDPlex converter have any impact to the overall SQ?

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10 minutes ago, lmitche said:

Thanks, this does indeed tell the story.  You would need at least 8 amps, and probably more at peak, at 12 volts to supply the 8 pin molex feeding power to the cpu. I use an ATX supply for this with huge overkill at 1600 watts. You could try the same with a good 600 ATX power supply. The three of us that already have done this were shocked with the results. You will need to use a test connector in the 24 pin atx socket to get this working.

What ATX power supply would you recommend for this?

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7 minutes ago, elan120 said:

This is very encouraging news indeed, and I hope to follow this path further.  To clarify my understanding correctly, is the SR7 connected to HDPlex converter (HDPlex 400W HiFi DC-ATX), and then connected to the new MB?  If this is the correct understanding, I wonder if the output noise level from HDPlex converter have any impact to the overall SQ?

 

Yes, the SR7 connects to the converter then to the MB.   I'm sure the HDPlex converter has an impact, but a negligible one.  It's the best converter out there, at least that I've found.  Another sacrifice made to use a motherboard with high frequency processor and Optane capability.

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26 minutes ago, elan120 said:

What ATX power supply would you recommend for this?

Seasonic PRIME Ultra Titanium would be a good choice.  Excellent ripple control.  The 650W is on sale today at Newegg for $135 after $25 rebate.  There are lots of alternatives.

Pareto Audio AMD 7700 Server --> Berkeley Alpha USB --> Jeff Rowland Aeris --> Jeff Rowland 625 S2 --> Focal Utopia 3 Diablos with 2 x Focal Electra SW 1000 BE subs

 

i7-6700K/Windows 10  --> EVGA Nu Audio Card --> Focal CMS50's 

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My suggestion for an ATX supply would be the Seasonic fanless titanium or even better one of the EVGA titanium's. There are good sites like jonnyguru.com that have detailed reviews and ratings. You will use less than 100 watts and this shouldn't be enough to kick on the fan in any supply over 600 watts.

 

To get an ATX supply to fire up the 24 ATX plug needs to be jumpered as though it is attached to a motherboard. Here is an example of one.  In the end I made my own from an old cable.

 

https://www.google.com/search?q=atx+power+supply+test+cable&client=tablet-unknown&prmd=sivn&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi14LWJvYXbAhXMq1kKHQqNDw0Q_AUIEigC#imgrc=ZTsmxnW_l2qgKM:

Pareto Audio aka nuckleheadaudio

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57 minutes ago, Johnseye said:

 

Yes, the SR7 connects to the converter then to the MB.   I'm sure the HDPlex converter has an impact, but a negligible one.  It's the best converter out there, at least that I've found.  Another sacrifice made to use a motherboard with high frequency processor and Optane capability.

 

48 minutes ago, rickca said:

Seasonic PRIME Ultra Titanium would be a good choice.  Excellent ripple control.  The 650W is on sale today at Newegg for $135 after $25 rebate.  There are lots of alternatives.

 

31 minutes ago, lmitche said:

My suggestion for an ATX supply would be the Seasonic fanless titanium or even better one of the EVGA titanium's. There are good sites like jonnyguru.com that have detailed reviews and ratings. You will use less than 100 watts and this shouldn't be enough to kick on the fan in any supply over 600 watts.

 

To get an ATX supply to fire up the 24 ATX plug needs to be jumpered as though it is attached to a motherboard. Here is an example of one.  In the end I made my own from an old cable.

 

https://www.google.com/search?q=atx+power+supply+test+cable&client=tablet-unknown&prmd=sivn&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi14LWJvYXbAhXMq1kKHQqNDw0Q_AUIEigC#imgrc=ZTsmxnW_l2qgKM:

Thank you all for the suggestions.  These are great choices, I will walk this the long way starting with upgrading power supply with my current i7700, just not sure whether to go with linear power supply route or ATX at the moment, eventually, I am hoping to have a server that can run HQPlayer upsampling with non*-2S filters, and ATX power supply will likely be the only choice there.

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1 hour ago, Johnseye said:

 

Yes, the SR7 connects to the converter then to the MB.   I'm sure the HDPlex converter has an impact, but a negligible one.  It's the best converter out there, at least that I've found.  Another sacrifice made to use a motherboard with high frequency processor and Optane capability.

 

I'm going to show my ignorance, but could you guys please indulge me and help me understand the general principle at work here. Since I haven't dabbled in system builds like you guys, I'm not familiar with the minutiae. Is this understanding correct?

  • You're starting with a 19V/10A SR rail from your SR-7. About as clean and pure DC as it comes.
  • You feed it to the input of the HDPlex DC-ATX converter. This thing "converts" the input DC into multiple output DC voltages, which are standard:
    • 3.3V
    • 5V x 2 outputs
    • 12V
    • What subsystems do these typically drive? I know one high current 5V rail goes to the CPU
  • I believe @lmitche has found that using a separate LPS to power the CPU has provided massive improvement?

My general concern with this approach is the quality of the DC-ATX converter. It's all regulator stages, isn't it? Do we know the quality of these regulators? Switching or linear? What about the caps used? Generic or better quality?

 

Finally, in the extreme case, could you forego the DC-ATX converter, and just use separate LPSes for each of the 3.3, 5, 5, 12V rails? Is this what you've done, Larry, with your "robot army" of Sigma 11 supplies? :) 

 

Please tell me if I'm way off base.

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22 minutes ago, austinpop said:

 

I'm going to show my ignorance, but could you guys please indulge me and help me understand the general principle at work here. Since I haven't dabbled in system builds like you guys, I'm not familiar with the minutiae. Is this understanding correct?

  • You're starting with a 19V/10A SR rail from your SR-7. About as clean and pure DC as it comes.
  • You feed it to the input of the HDPlex DC-ATX converter. This thing "converts" the input DC into multiple output DC voltages, which are standard:
    • 3.3V
    • 5V x 2 outputs
    • 12V
    • What subsystems do these typically drive? I know one high current 5V rail goes to the CPU
  • I believe @lmitche has found that using a separate LPS to power the CPU has provided massive improvement?

My general concern with this approach is the quality of the DC-ATX converter. It's all regulator stages, isn't it? Do we know the quality of these regulators? Switching or linear? What about the caps used? Generic or better quality?

 

Finally, in the extreme case, could you forego the DC-ATX converter, and just use separate LPSes for each of the 3.3, 5, 5, 12V rails? Is this what you've done, Larry, with your "robot army" of Sigma 11 supplies? :) 

 

Please tell me if I'm way off base.

Sorry, you are right in each case, except that I am using a HDplex DC to DC ATX and have not gone the route of a separate supply for each ATX 24 pin rail that you so rightly say is possible.

 

Yes, the HDplex DC to DC ATX converter uses a series of regulators to drop the 19 volts input to the four voltages required for the motherboard and CPU, if used. This is likely noisier then a separate supply for each voltage.

 

Four of the sigma 11 robots power network gear here, wireless range extender, 2 switches and a router. The second four power the Hdplex, HDD, and 2 lps1es for USB card and ISO Regen.

Pareto Audio aka nuckleheadaudio

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45 minutes ago, austinpop said:

I believe @lmitche has found that using a separate LPS to power the CPU has provided massive improvement?

I think @lmitche is using a 1600W ATX supply for the 12V to the CPU.  Like he said, way overkill on the wattage.

Pareto Audio AMD 7700 Server --> Berkeley Alpha USB --> Jeff Rowland Aeris --> Jeff Rowland 625 S2 --> Focal Utopia 3 Diablos with 2 x Focal Electra SW 1000 BE subs

 

i7-6700K/Windows 10  --> EVGA Nu Audio Card --> Focal CMS50's 

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4 minutes ago, rickca said:

I think @lmitche is using a 1600W ATX supply for the 12V to the CPU.  Like he said, way overkill on the wattage.

Yes, he used what he had laying around (of sorts).  He knows its significant power overkill, but a clean ATX supply nonetheless (Seasonic Titanium).

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I guess this is where the Zenith SE distinguishes itself, using the custom Sean Jacobs 5-rail PSU to power all these subsystems. Is that better than a combination of SR-7 followed by HDPlex DC-ATX converter? And if so, by how much?

 

On the flip side, John gets to reclock with the sCLK/Ref 10 and upsample to DSD512.

 

How to get the best of all worlds?

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3 minutes ago, austinpop said:

I guess this is where the Zenith SE distinguishes itself, using the custom Sean Jacobs 5-rail PSU to power all these subsystems. Is that better than a combination of SR-7 followed by HDPlex DC-ATX converter? And if so, by how much?

 

On the flip side, John gets to reclock with the sCLK/Ref 10 and upsample to DSD512.

 

How to get the best of all worlds?

The Meitner MA-1 V2, and EMM Labs V2 DACs, convert all input to DSD512 for conversion to analog.  Does anyone know how this compares to converting in a high powered server and delivering a high bit rate to a DAC ?

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1 minute ago, austinpop said:

 

How to get the best of all worlds?

 

Have Sean build a better DC to ATX converter, or converters?

 

I question the multi-rail approach after what we heard.  Separate supplies for each component is ideal.  Compromises will be made for cost, size, complexity/simplicity, eye appeal, etc.

 

As for the HDPlex, they claim: Germany Würth Elektronik High Current Inductance, WIMA Audio Grade Capacitors High Voltage Endurance SANYO and Fujitsu Solid State Capacitors, Infineon MOSFET, Texas Instruments TI-LM2642 Control Chip, and 6 Layer 2oz copper high quality PCB.

 

Output Voltage Max DC Current Full Load DC Current Output Voltage Tolerance Ripple Noise
(mVp-p,MAX)

+3.3V       12A    10A       1%        10mV
+5V       12A    10A       1%        10mV
+12V       50A    35A       1%        10mV
+5VSB       2A    1.5A       3%        10mV

 

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29 minutes ago, d_elm said:

The Meitner MA-1 V2, and EMM Labs V2 DACs, convert all input to DSD512 for conversion to analog.  Does anyone know how this compares to converting in a high powered server and delivering a high bit rate to a DAC ?

Two different ways to skin a cat.  In the case of many DACs (not necessarily the EMM/Meitners) the upsampling tech used internally is somewhat of an afterhtought, with cheap chipsets.  In those cases, doing that heavy lifting in powerful cpus with dedicated upsampling software like HQPlayer is way more effective and musical.  However, many of those same dacs will not get out of their own way and let you upsample into NOS mode, so it's a hybrid approach of sending high sample rate material to them and then they still do some ineffective heavy lifting anyway. 

 

In the case of great (and expensive) implementations like what is probably in Ed's designs with the V2, they do a good job.  But, in theory (and in practice in some cases) for much less $$ one could postulate that you could provide a strong silent cpu, great dedicated and flexible software and an appropriate NOS-capable dac and be to the same musical conclusion a different way.

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1 hour ago, austinpop said:

 

I'm going to show my ignorance, but could you guys please indulge me and help me understand the general principle at work here. Since I haven't dabbled in system builds like you guys, I'm not familiar with the minutiae. Is this understanding correct?

  • You're starting with a 19V/10A SR rail from your SR-7. About as clean and pure DC as it comes.
  • You feed it to the input of the HDPlex DC-ATX converter. This thing "converts" the input DC into multiple output DC voltages, which are standard:
    • 3.3V
    • 5V x 2 outputs
    • 12V
    • What subsystems do these typically drive? I know one high current 5V rail goes to the CPU
  • I believe @lmitche has found that using a separate LPS to power the CPU has provided massive improvement?

My general concern with this approach is the quality of the DC-ATX converter. It's all regulator stages, isn't it? Do we know the quality of these regulators? Switching or linear? What about the caps used? Generic or better quality?

 

Finally, in the extreme case, could you forego the DC-ATX converter, and just use separate LPSes for each of the 3.3, 5, 5, 12V rails? Is this what you've done, Larry, with your "robot army" of Sigma 11 supplies? :) 

 

Please tell me if I'm way off base.

Its a multi rail switch mode...

The controller data sheet.

http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/lm2642.pdf

There are other point of load supplies on the board, usually around the DDR memory, how many and type will depend on the motherboard. The important thing for noise is local POL supplies, with isolated power island, generic motherboards tend to skimp on these where possible to save money, whereas instrumentation and the like will go to great lengths to design and control the power delivery system to get the best low noise design, more costly due to increased component count and complexity. The stability of the voltages is critical to low noise operation, a low impedance supply at the required frequencies is required, impedance is the enemy here mainly inductive, it slows the current delivery down, so short leads are in order.

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