A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming

[Johnseye]

1 hour ago, soares said:

Probably. To my surprise the sound I get from Tidal through my sonic transporter i5 with Roon and an ultrarendu is far better than the one that comes from my HD connected through USB to the STi5...

 

Thanks for the input.  I have an older WD My Book I can test with.  My motherboard's LAN clock is tapped from an sCLK which will be "disciplined" by a master clock and the NAS is routed through an OCXO switch with LPS while the USB clock on the motherboard is not tapped from the sCLK.  That could, and likely will have an impact.  I think only a good listening test will allow me to know for sure.

[lmitche]

In my case I am running a startech usb 3.1 gen 2 enclosure with power from lt3045s for both the 12 volt HDD drive motor and vbus for the usb-sata adapter. Power quality counts big time with the HDD. 

[lmitche]

22 hours ago, Johnseye said:

 

Thank you for the information Paul, and confirming what we heard from your supplies.  This validation, combined with actually hearing the difference, demonstrates the impact of a supply beyond what I heard when I first introduced the SR7 into my system.

 

I think it's very important to note that you call out a benefit can be had by isolating the supply by stage, not just device.  This is something that a few people here in the forums have been doing with their PCs, resulting in noticeable improvements.  Everyone will have their cost/space thresholds, but at least for me, now a bar has been set.

 

 

I just read the thread and postings on single vs. shared transformer outputs and the number of power supplies necessary to separate everything.

 

It's a little embarrassing, but I have nine single transformer sigma 11 based power supplies, most with a second or third stage of lt3045 regulation.

@forehaven and @zorntel have six each.

[Johnseye]

36 minutes ago, lmitche said:

I just read the thread and postings on single vs. shared transformer outputs and the number of power supplies necessary to separate everything.

 

It's a little embarrassing, but I have nine single transformer sigma 11 based power supplies, most with a second or third stage of lt3045 regulation.

@forehaven and @zorntel have six each.

 

I am headed down that path.  As if I didn't have enough boxes already.  Chris shared a picture of his LT3045 enclosure with me.  I like that idea for devices I can't put one directly inside.

 

One thing I need to wrap my head around is how the pins are broken out from the ATX and 12v adapters to the LT.  Is there a schematic somewhere?

 

[lmitche]

11 minutes ago, Johnseye said:

 

I am headed down that path.  As if I didn't have enough boxes already.  Chris shared a picture of his LT3045 enclosure with me.  I like that idea for devices I can't put one directly inside.

 

One thing I need to wrap my head around is how the pins are broken out from the ATX and 12v adapters to the LT.  Is there a schematic somewhere?

 

When concieved, neither the 19 volt power to the hdplex ATX DC to DC supply, nor the 12 volt power to the cpu had LT3045 stages.  Current was too high and no lt3045 module could handle it.  That may have changed with StammHeim's new 5 amp lt3045 supply, at least for the 19 volt leg.

[lmitche]

20 minutes ago, Johnseye said:

 

I am headed down that path.  As if I didn't have enough boxes already.  Chris shared a picture of his LT3045 enclosure with me.  I like that idea for devices I can't put one directly inside.

 

One thing I need to wrap my head around is how the pins are broken out from the ATX and 12v adapters to the LT.  Is there a schematic somewhere?

 

BTW, you can buy three to a box. And they are nice looking boxes too.

[Solstice380]

1 hour ago, lmitche said:

I just read the thread and postings on single vs. shared transformer outputs and the number of power supplies necessary to separate everything.

 

It's a little embarrassing, but I have nine single transformer sigma 11 based power supplies, most with a second or third stage of lt3045 regulation.

@forehaven and @zorntel have six each.

 

Conspicuous consumption, I say!  ?

[rickca]

27 minutes ago, lmitche said:

BTW, you can buy three to a box. And they are nice looking boxes too.

Got a link?

[lmitche]

37 minutes ago, rickca said:

Got a link?

Driving now, may be later. I did post links above somewhere.

[RickyV]

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Hi-end-3-way-S11-Ultra-low-noise-linear-Power-supply-DC7-5V-DC12V-DC19V/123063908030?hash=item1ca72e36be:g:u6AAAOSwIwJZf2au

[lmitche]

30 minutes ago, RickyV said:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Hi-end-3-way-S11-Ultra-low-noise-linear-Power-supply-DC7-5V-DC12V-DC19V/123063908030?hash=item1ca72e36be:g:u6AAAOSwIwJZf2au

Yep, that's the one. Thanks RickyV!

[paulhynes]

Imitche,

 

No need to be embarrassed. You are moving in the right direction with your power supply applications. How many signal processing stages do you have in your system? That’s the number of power supplies you are going to need.

 

One of my old customers has taken this to the extreme using one of my SR1M shunt voltage regulator modules for each stage in his system, each with its own LIPO battery as power source. He also has a lot of battery chargers. He now lives in Singapore. I hope he has a large listening room and good air conditioning to keep the room cool.

[Chiswickian]

Is there anyone in the (West) London area or thereabouts with a curious USB cable that I could listen to.  I've got a PH SR-4 burning in nicely, you could listen to also. if you're interested?

 

Please let me know.

[BigGuy]

Given the complexity of doing a DIY USB cable, does anyone have experience with cables that separate power from data transfer, i.e., a "two-headed" cable?  I was thinking about the Pangea offering.

 

After reading the CA thread re Gordon Rankin's opinions, I am still wondering how important the 90+/- Ohm "spec" for USB2.0 is and whether any commercial cables satisfy it?!  I did see where one Belkin USB  does use the logo indicating it does.

[asdf1000]

31 minutes ago, BigGuy said:

and whether any commercial cables satisfy it?! 

 

A couple of High Speed Certified USB 2.0 cables:

 

https://www.startech.com/Cables/USB-2.0/USB-2.0-Cables/6-ft-High-Speed-USB-20-Cable~USB2HAB6

 

http://www.jenving.com/products/view/usb-2.0-a-b-1001908381

 

Some have the High Speed Certified logo on the packaging, some have writing printed onto the cable itself.

 

[auricgoldfinger]

2 hours ago, BigGuy said:

Given the complexity of doing a DIY USB cable, does anyone have experience with cables that separate power from data transfer, i.e., a "two-headed" cable?  I was thinking about the Pangea offering.

 

After reading the CA thread re Gordon Rankin's opinions, I am still wondering how important the 90+/- Ohm "spec" for USB2.0 is and whether any commercial cables satisfy it?!  I did see where one Belkin USB  does use the logo indicating it does.

 

Curious USB cable is made this way:

 

"The 5V line in the Curious is a gold coloured, separate mini coaxial cable that is set apart from the data lines.  The shielding means that any noise carried on the power line has negligible impact on sound quality." 
 

http://www.curiouscables.com/

[lmitche]

7 hours ago, paulhynes said:

Imitche,

 

No need to be embarrassed. You are moving in the right direction with your power supply applications. How many signal processing stages do you have in your system? That’s the number of power supplies you are going to need.

 

One of my old customers has taken this to the extreme using one of my SR1M shunt voltage regulator modules for each stage in his system, each with its own LIPO battery as power source. He also has a lot of battery chargers. He now lives in Singapore. I hope he has a large listening room and good air conditioning to keep the room cool.

Thanks Paul,

 

Yes every device that takes in a digital signal and then regenerates it for  downstream transmission has its own transformer and chain of one (sigma 11) and zero, one or two lt3045 regulators depending on current requirements, ≤ 1 amp has two, ≤ 3 amps one.

 

I guess this is kinda a poor man's approach to what your friend in Singapore is doing. I take your point on heat as well, but happily except for the PC, most of these devices don't draw much current.

 

All in all, it does sound great!

[jacquesr]

On 2018-04-26 at 4:39 AM, nvitorino said:

Regarding multi-rail power supplies vs multiple separate power supplies, you need to take into account 3 scenarios:

 

1. Single transformer with multiple outputs in one box

2. Multiple transformers with less outputs (in extremis one output per transformer) housed in the same box

3. Multiple transformers housed in multiple boxes

 

The problem with scenario 2 is the transformer's vibration ressonating with each other. This is the same reason we don't use two HDDs in the same enclosure (as well as the additional power noise they produce as well). Decoupling the transformers on a same box is not an easy task, at least to fully decouple them. The problem with 3. is both cost and ackwardness - 8 rails for a Statement would require 8 boxes, each with decent anti-vibration treatment and decent power chords as well as 8 plugs to connect them on a decent mains extension...

 

Nuno

 

 

Hello Nuno,

It is really wonderful to read your posts.

Some comments and questions:

1) I would suggest you contact Chris here to take on a "Sponsored Forum". Us all being the perfect demographic for your products, I think you would appreciate the interaction

2) I wish you would add support for HQPlayer NAA. This is the main reason I haven't pull the trigger yet.

3) Do you have any SE available? (PM me please)

4) I don't expect an answer... but when will you annonce a product between the MKII and the Statement?

 

I will read your answers with great interest!

[seeteeyou]

IMHO this is very so interesting for owners of DACs from Chord, provided that we're OK with the limitations of Toslink

 

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-electronics-dave.766517/page-736#post-14206068

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1) Mac mini running Roon Server > USB to Dave
2) Mac mini running Roon Server > AQ-SWITCH-SE > sMS-200ultra > tX-USBultra > USB to Dave
3) MacBook Pro (battery powered) running Audirvana Plus > optical to Dave

 

To cut the long story short these are my main findings:
1) Again the differences are not night and day but indeed solution 3 offered the most enjoyable, full and non-fatiguing sound. Unfortunately for several reasons this is not a sustainable solution (placement, storage capacity and use of the laptop for other purposes).

 

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-electronics-dave.766517/page-736#post-14206142

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Yes I have the camera adapter and will try with my iPad.

 

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-electronics-dave.766517/page-737#post-14207030

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iPad on USB: the iPad connected to USB came second but very very close to the optical and completely smashed the USB out of the Mac Mini via SOtM chain!

 

Granted it's gotta be DAC-specific because Chord DACs are supposed to be jitter-agnostic, though in specific cases we might wanna question the value of investing in certain products from SOtM if we're indeed happy to live with Toslink.

 

So far it's quite consistent with the findings of @romaz who praised the Toslink inputs of both Hugo 2 and DAVE when they're fed by a modified Oppo UDP-205.

 

That wasn't even end of the story, here's yet another example with PS Audio DirectStream fed by the Toslink output of this $50 USB DDC

 

https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=20827883149

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-electronics-dave.766517/page-733#post-14202845

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I wish I could agree. I spend two nights, say 4-5 hours each night, listening to my new USB-to-TOSLINK converter. And compared to my current USB with 15 ferrites (and tested with/without an Intona and Battery inserter on the +5V), its no comparison. The TOSLINK converter with the new XMOS U8 is just remarkable ...kills the USB. I hear things, beautiful things like subtle nuances in instrumentation and background vocals. OK, this is to a PSAudio DirectStream while I wait for my Qutest to arrive ...but still. Given that these DACs are supposed to be immune to SPDIF jitter ...is this the miracle of zero RF noise impacting the DAC? I am a single sample, but now my Yoga laptop thru this $68 converter is the best I have heard. I can live with a max of 24/96 to get this quality of sound for so little cost.

 

Both 22.5792 MHz and 24.576 MHz clocks (their "flagship" TCXO would cost 90 RMB so that's like just under 15 bucks a piece) should be absolutely nothing to write home about, not to mention the fact that USB DDC was actually bus powered to boot

 

https://szjyec.taobao.com/category-639720104.htm

 

Finally this is definitely the craziest example by far since we're talking about freebie Toslink cable here, we could turn off the upscaling part of M-Scaler inside Blu Mk. 2 and then convert a single coaxial output into Toslink. That just happened to beat the daylight outta dual coaxial outputs that were blessed by the power of 1 million taps

 

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-electronics-dave.766517/page-735#post-14204373

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I have a spare LPS-1 (after upgrading to the LPS 1.2) which I use to power it - 5v/1A

 

The Toslink cable supplied with the Dave goes from the convertor to the Dave. All upsampling is turned off, so it’s just plain vanilla Red Book into the Dave. It sounds glorious and much better than BNC Blu 2 to Dave. I’m afraid the interface between the RFI generated by the BLU 2 and Dave’s ground plane is a major issue for me.

 

So yeah, those 1 million taps inside Blu Mk. 2 made a huge difference for sure but we're also paying the price of a major "RF noise generator" just like how Rob Watts would slap a label on quite a few products

 

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-electronics-blu-mk-2-the-official-thread.831343/page-196#post-14103674

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He described my Clarity Cables Natural USB cable as an "RF noise generator" and he thought it sounded the worst of the lot.

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Once again, Rob labeled the Zenith SE an "RF noise generator."

 

It's just incredible for me to realize what's the deal with both USB and coaxial inputs of Chord DACs, both of them seemed to be super sensitive to RFI while Toslink actually saved the day for those of us who don't need anything above 192kHz.

[auricgoldfinger]

1 hour ago, seeteeyou said:

IMHO this is very so interesting for owners of DACs from Chord, provided that we're OK with the limitations of Toslink

 

Will any generic toslink cable achieve this performance, or do we need a certain quality cable?

[austinpop]

I have to admit, I was really flabbergasted when Roy reported Rob's RF noise observations. When a respected designer like Rob hears what many of us consider as "massive" improvements as "RF noise," it really does give one pause.

 

If he hears things so differently than we do, does that mean his products are tuned for different ears? Luckily that does not seem to be the case. While I didn't find the DAVE particularly rave-worthy at its lofty price, the Hugo2 certainly impressed me sonically, if not its quirky design. The one component that has blown me away, at least in a demo setting at RMAF 2017, was the Blu2 scaler.

 

All that said, if Chord come out with an "affordable" Mscaler and DAC (TT2?) combo, I'd be interested to see how the Toslink idea pans out. I suppose one can continue to use USB for the DSD and DXD formats.

[ElviaCaprice]

2 hours ago, seeteeyou said:

IMHO this is very so interesting for owners of DACs from Chord, provided that we're OK with the limitations of Toslink

 

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-electronics-dave.766517/page-736#post-14206068

 

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-electronics-dave.766517/page-736#post-14206142

 

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-electronics-dave.766517/page-737#post-14207030

 

Granted it's gotta be DAC-specific because Chord DACs are supposed to be jitter-agnostic, though in specific cases we might wanna question the value of investing in certain products from SOtM if we're indeed happy to live with Toslink.

 

So far it's quite consistent with the findings of @romaz who praised the Toslink inputs of both Hugo 2 and DAVE when they're fed by a modified Oppo UDP-205.

 

That wasn't even end of the story, here's yet another example with PS Audio DirectStream fed by the Toslink output of this $50 USB DDC

 

 

First off, the guy making those observations is not someone I trust.  This same person had huge difficulties back when the Hugo1 came out and was making strange observations far from what others we're experiencing.  

 

Secondly, yes, Roy did mention the low cost and ease of using toslink, but he did not say it was as good as his optomized server via USB.  Also due to the technical limitations of Toslink he basically threw it out as a path to pursue any further.

[ElviaCaprice]

28 minutes ago, austinpop said:

I have to admit, I was really flabbergasted when Roy reported Rob's RF noise observations. When a respected designer like Rob hears what many of us consider as "massive" improvements as "RF noise," it really does give one pause.

 

If he hears things so differently than we do, does that mean his products are tuned for different ears? Luckily that does not seem to be the case. While I didn't find the DAVE particularly rave-worthy at its lofty price, the Hugo2 certainly impressed me sonically, if not its quirky design. The one component that has blown me away, at least in a demo setting at RMAF 2017, was the Blu2 scaler.

 

All that said, if Chord come out with an "affordable" Mscaler and DAC (TT2?) combo, I'd be interested to see how the Toslink idea pans out. I suppose one can continue to use USB for the DSD and DXD formats.

 

I have two possible outcomes as to Rob's observations.  Either a lot of smart audiophiles are wrong and Rob, being the smartest in the room, is right.  OR, because Rob is so protective of his creation the Chord DAVE, that he refuses to acknowledge any outside capable influence to his creation and thus gives a lame reason.  Guess you know which one I think it is.

 

He pulled the same bull with Ted a few years back on power supplies and the 2Qute.  Needless to say, Ted moved away from Chord from that point on.

 

Regardless of his obstinance, his creations are brilliant and I just choose to ignore him when he gets this way.

[seeteeyou]

1 hour ago, auricgoldfinger said:

Will any generic toslink cable achieve this performance, or do we need a certain quality cable?

 

Once again it's gotta be DAC-specific so YMMV if you weren't trying Toslink with DACs from Chord or PS Audio etc. Basically we don't have to spend that much on Toslink cables, and in @romaz's case the Toslink output of his modified Oppo UDP-205 was able to achieve the same level of performance as his ZENith SE + tX-USBultra + Paul Hynes SR7 + Mutec REF 10 combo (NOT quite as good as his megabuck custom server with tons of bells and whistles but close enough?) with this Mapleshade Clearlink optical cable

 

http://shop.mapleshadestore.com/Optical-Audio-Cables/products/338/

 

Seriously the megabuck part was such an understatement because we're talking about well over 10K but that's actually working so darn well after @romaz specifically tailored everything to match his entire system

 

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/review-comparison-of-5-high-end-digital-music-servers-aurender-n10-cad-cat-server-totaldac-d1-server-auralic-aries-audiophile-vortex-box.787020/page-69#post-13801299

Quote

 

I'll get a few things out of the way. Both of these units are excellent and the consensus was unanimous that in my system as stated, either of these units is a large gap better than a Windows 10 laptop on batteries running Roon. It was also a unanimous consensus that my current server build is better than either of these units but in different ways. For those not aware of the details of my current server build, here it is:

 

https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/30376-a-novel-way-to-massively-improve-the-sq-of-computer-audio-streaming/?page=153&tab=comments#comment-724987

 

To be fair, what I have now was built and fine tuned for my specific system and to my preferences and so not surprisingly, using gambling nomenclature, it has a "house advantage." For those not wishing to build their own servers, either of these would be considered state of the art and I would have no reservations recommending either of them depending on your priorities.

 

 

BTW, keeping clock cables as short as possible might be a challenge for some of us who have multiple devices with 10MHz reference clock inputs.

 

More importantly, pretty much all owners of Chord DACs who were quite happy about Toslink seemed to have fairly lousy PSUs / clocks for those relatively cheap source components. USB DDC was bus powered. Macbook Pro was battery powered. Oppo UDP-205 was powered by (cheap?) linear PSU with multiple rails. The only noteworthy one turned out to be LPS-1 for Lindy 70411. No fancy clocks whatsoever and even that 27MHz SBtron OCXO inside Oppo should be meh at best.

 

In other words, nobody even got halfway serious about optimizing those sources in the first place but the results for those jitter-agnostic DACs from Chord / PS Audio should already speak for themselves. That $50 USB DDC turned out to have DIL14 clock sockets, we could take advantage of some clocks with fantabulous phase noise (such as Pulsar Clock) without much degradation when both clocks could sit right on top on the clock sockets

 

http://www.pulsarclock.com/ENHome.html

[seeteeyou]

1 hour ago, austinpop said:

All that said, if Chord come out with an "affordable" Mscaler and DAC (TT2?) combo, I'd be interested to see how the Toslink idea pans out. I suppose one can continue to use USB for the DSD and DXD formats.

 

Well, the thing is we'll definitely have to "settle with" either USB or dual coaxial in order to utilize a million taps while Toslink could only go up to 192kHz. It kinda sucks when the upscaling part of M-Scaler and the advantage of Toslink should be mutually exclusive.

 

We've got USB 3.0 AOC (Active Optical Cables) but they aren't backward compatible with USB 2.0 unless we're adding that cheap-looking adapter

 

https://www.lindy-international.com/USB-Fibre-Optic-Extenders.htm?websale8=ld0101.ld020102&ci=500303

 

This one from Corning should be somewhat flaky since it might not even last that long

 

https://www.corning.com/optical-cables-by-corning/worldwide/en/products/usb-optical-cables.html

 

These guys might look interesting but once again we've gotta know more about backward compatibility

 

http://spec.go4fiber.com/networking/gusb-xx-xxxx_20151120.pdf

https://www.go4fiber.com/usb-3-0-to-lc-active-optical-cable-length-1m

https://www.go4fiber.com/usb-3-0-to-usb-3-0-active-optical-cable-length-1m

 

Could this one from VIA be good for $239 by any chance?

 

https://www.viaembeddedstore.com/shop/accessories/usb-3-hybrid-aoc/

https://j3fau2wsnso1qkiarz7keon5-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/VIA_USB_3.0_Hybrid_AOC_datasheet_v170926.pdf

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Compatible with a full range of USB standards, the cables also deliver superior signal quality and high EMI and RFI resistance.

 

Even replacing the system clocks inside Adnaco-S3B with sCLK-EX seemed to be no good so @romaz didn't keep that.

 

BTW, did @romaz ever give you a clear answer offline?

 

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/review-comparison-of-5-high-end-digital-music-servers-aurender-n10-cad-cat-server-totaldac-d1-server-auralic-aries-audiophile-vortex-box.787020/page-70#post-13805109

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Fascinating findings! But just to be clear, after all the dust has settled: your custom server, with end to end clocking and SR7 PSUs, is still sounding superior to the Zenith SE, correct?