A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming

[BigAlMc]

I've posted my OXCO router question as a separate thread to see if we can get some observations on experience. 

 

 

Cheers, 

Alan 

[Ben2300]

23 hours ago, spotforscott said:

Very interesting findings. I am going to have some learning of my own next month. I have ordered a couple of things from Linear Solutions Design:

 

* OCXO Switch with custom LPS

 

Modded Oppo 203 with the following Linear Solutions upgrades:

* LPS: Nichicon KA Caps/ M-Cap upgrade

* OCXO Clock 

* New custom wiring throughout with 7N OCC Copper 15Pin 
* Furutech FI-06 NCF IEC upgrade  
* EMI treatment

* Aluminum Stabilizer

 

I will be testing it against my Trifecta set up. Attraction to modded oppo player is optical output to Chord DAVE. Hope is that my Sonic Transporter i7 (bridged) connected to the Linear Solutions OCXO switch, feeding the modded Oppo player via ethernet cable with optical out to the DAVE will hold its own against the Trifecta - using USB connection to DAVE. 

 

Will be testing using a direct connection from DAVE to hi-efficiency speakers (very transparent set-up) and with recently broken in Abyss Phi headphones.

 

I will be sure to report back on findings...

 

Thx @spotforscott I just checked, they didn’t mention anything about modded Oppo on their site, I had a 105 was always thinking about improving the clock and LPS, but just couldn’t find one in the USA that can do it with clock other than oppomod version. Email sent let see what happen.

[spotforscott]

27 minutes ago, Ben2300 said:

Thx @spotforscott I just checked, they didn’t mention anything about modded Oppo on their site, I had a 105 was always thinking about improving the clock and LPS, but just couldn’t find one in the USA that can do it with clock other than oppomod version. Email sent let see what happen.

Yeah, I know. I approached them about the Oppo. They said that they have done many Oppo mods and immediately gave me pricing on all of the upgrade options.

 

I think they are just trying to keep their site focussed on their main business.

 

Something to keep in mind is what you want to use the Oppo for. For me, I want it for DVD/ Bluray concerts and as a Roon endpoint. The 105 can't operate as a Roon endpoint, only the 203 or 205 can.

[Ben2300]

8 minutes ago, spotforscott said:

The 105 can't operate as a Roon endpoint, only the 203 or 205 can.

Wow, thx for pointing that out. I want to use that as an endpoint as well. Might have to sell the 105 first than jump on to 203. 

[ElviaCaprice]

On 4/17/2018 at 12:10 PM, austinpop said:

 

I will reinforce one common theme in all of these - the tX-USBultra at the end of the chain, right before the DAC, ideally disciplined by a 10MHz reference clock. I think this is the glue that binds all these approaches together.

 

 

This is a recurring theme, I feel. The further upstream you optimize, the more muted the improvements are. Eric and I also had a hard time distinguishing between the SE and his vanilla Roon Core when comparing the SE chain to the trifecta chain.

 

 

Even the tX-USBUltra is an unnecessary fixer if you can eliminate any of the remaining phase/power noise in the server.  In fact, you may just be reintroducing noise in the connection/power leading to the tX-USBUltra.  

Would be interesting to see what a SE modified with sCLK-EX would bring to the table.    I am sure any improvements to the server mobo in how it implements and uses power will show dividends along with premium clocking.  

Meanwhile keeping the mobo as small and low power as possible helps with leakage and impedance.  

Keeping it simple.  

 

On a side note, just implemented, as done and suggested by @mozes, a REL t5i subwoofer to my Omegas.  Very nice subtle touch which if implemented correctly can enhance the overall sound by bringing the lows out on par with the mids and highs.  I did as REL suggested and placed the subwoofer in equal distance diagonally in the corner of the room behind the speakers.  Hardly even need all it's power available to capture and seal the room with it's presence but non overbearing signature in conjunction with the Omegas.  Like it so much, plan on adding another one with a used pair of Omega Super 3XRS I purchased recently for my MN summer home.  Along with DAVE and tagging along my sCLK-EX server should make for a pleasant summer.  

 

[One and a half]

18 minutes ago, Ben2300 said:

Wow, thx for pointing that out. I want to use that as an endpoint as well. Might have to sell the 105 first than jump on to 203. 

If you have sacd keep the 105 for ripping them.

[RickyV]

1 hour ago, Superdad said:

 

Frequency stability is not important for the application!  Only phase-noise at low frequency offset is important.

 

Despite their still-published too-conservative plots, the Crystek CCHD-575 ($9.60 each when we order 500 at a time) are running -108, -110, -112dBc/Hz @10Hz.  Those are the numbers on the paper plots they included with our first (confirmed random) samples that we got from Crystek almost 2 years ago.

 

The only significantly better numbers I have seen for a (semi)-production clock under $500 come from the Pulsar Clock. (Though Patrick in Texas has been hand screening NDKs for a few people for a few years; I think he said he can find about 10% of them getting to -112dBc/Hz at 10Hz).

 

From every clock data sheet I have look at (over 100 that's for sure) OCXOs below $500 are inferior--from a phase-noise perspective--to the cheap-and-cheerful Crystek CCHD-575.

So anytime someone brags about their use of a TCXO or OCXO (in a DAC or anything else), then you'd best ask for a link to a model and data sheet.  

 

Lastly, I must say that I find TheLinearSolution's "spec" on its "OCXO Circuit" puzzling.  They state: "Ultralow Jitter: <1ps RMS."  Aside from  being meaningless without a bandwidth range, 1 picosecond is laughably bad.  1 picosecond equals 1,000 femtoseconds.  A $10 Crystek clock is spec'ed at 85 femtoseconds RMS jitter (12kHz~80MHz).

 

 

 

I think Johnseye question is a good one. I have read on the LKS dac modification thread, head-fi, a guy named bobb has tested a lot of oscillators in that dac. He liked certain oscillators better then others with more or less the same phase noise specs. I beleave he liked the crystek cchd-950x over the 957 over the 575. It is the sound balance, sound signature, coming from the oscillator that matters too. 

Correct me if i am wrong. 

And again the best phase noise and niced sounding clock oscillator should be at the end of the chain.

[ElviaCaprice]

If phase noise was the only culprit, then we should have found the ISO Regen a benefit and not a detriment to the sCLK-EX server system, which seems to be a strong consensus here.  

Thus it would appear that phase noise is not the only issue being resolved with the sCLK-EX, barring some other negative feature besides clocking in the ISO Regen that would explain it's detriment.

[lmitche]

7 minutes ago, ElviaCaprice said:

If phase noise was the only culprit, then we should have found the ISO Regen a benefit and not a detriment to the sCLK-EX server system, which seems to be a strong consensus here.  

Thus it would appear that phase noise is not the only issue being resolved with the sCLK-EX, barring some other negative feature besides clocking in the ISO Regen that would explain it's detriment.

The iso Regen is more complicated then just it's clock.  Feed one 5 volts and you will hear an improvement. If you do this, make sure any downstream device has separate power or can run on slightly lower voltage or no vbus power at all.

[sandyk]

6 minutes ago, ElviaCaprice said:

Thus it would appear that phase noise is not the only issue being resolved with the sCLK-EX, barring some other negative feature besides clocking in the ISO Regen that would explain it's detriment.

 

 As an aside, I don't know about the ISO Regen, but the original Regen works VERY well at bandwidths way past that of Audio, and that includes high resolution DTV at 1920 x 1080P  with multi channel audio.

 Could consumer grade opto coupling be a weak link, just as Toslink normally doesn't sound as good as Coax SPDIF ?

[RickyV]

English is not my native language but is “ detriment”  not a bit of a strong word!

 

I use the jcat femto usb card with a 957 clock 2mm from the xmos chip and it sounds really good the iso regen after the jcat was not helping the sq. 

I am still useing the iso regen and will keep it in my server.

I beleave the iso regen would certainly benefit from a 957 clock. 

[ElviaCaprice]

16 minutes ago, lmitche said:

The iso Regen is more complicated then just it's clock.  Feed one 5 volts and you will hear an improvement. If you do this, make sure any downstream device has separate power or can run on slightly lower voltage or no vbus power at all.

Larry, this is a given already in this thread, separate clean power.  Regardless of voltage/vbus, the ISO Regen is a detriment to SQ in my sCLK-EX server system, as others have found.  Let alone my theory on keeping it simple without any fixers (added noise makers) by concentrating on fixing the source design flaws.

[RickyV]

No, re-generation and reclocking is good for SQ,  determined by this thread.

[LTG2010]

49 minutes ago, ElviaCaprice said:

Thus it would appear that phase noise is not the only issue being resolved with the sCLK-EX, barring some other negative feature besides clocking in the ISO Regen that would explain it's detriment.

Phase noise is measured as frequency phase error -short term oscillator  instability, there is also jitter - timing error. Jitter or timing error causes a loss of detail and focus '3 dimensionality' This is where the sCLK ex excels. Syncing to a OCXO master clock, reduces these timing errors further. Sometimes measurements alone will not predict how the component will effect the 'sound'

[LTG2010]

11 minutes ago, RickyV said:

No, re-generation and reclocking is good for SQ,  determined by this thread.

Yes, re - generation and re clocking or daisy chaining the same clock has been shown to improve sound - reduce errors further, this seems to indicate even better clocking at the source could be attained

[Johnseye]

27 minutes ago, LTG2010 said:

Phase noise is measured as frequency phase error -short term oscillator  instability, there is also jitter - timing error. Jitter or timing error causes a loss of detail and focus '3 dimensionality' This is where the sCLK ex excels. Syncing to a OCXO master clock, reduces these timing errors further. Sometimes measurements alone will not predict how the component will effect the 'sound'

 

There we go.  It's not just about phase noise. Thanks LTG2010.

 

Here's a quote from Mutec's REF 10 site:

 

"Ultimately, it is the timing from one sample to another as a digital audio stream is transferred from one device to another that needs to be as precise as possible for best sound quality"

 

So how does the reference clock influence timing from one sample to another as a digital audio stream is transferred from one device to another? 

[lmitche]

56 minutes ago, ElviaCaprice said:

Larry, this is a given already in this thread, separate clean power.  Regardless of voltage/vbus, the ISO Regen is a detriment to SQ in my sCLK-EX server system, as others have found.  Let alone my theory on keeping it simple without any fixers (added noise makers) by concentrating on fixing the source design flaws.

And others have found the Iso Regen to be a great benefit, so let's keep the story balanced please.

[LTG2010]

10 minutes ago, Johnseye said:

So how does the reference clock influence timing from one sample to another as a digital audio stream is transferred from one device to another? 

As far as I'm aware, the master clock provides a 'reference' but cannot replace the actual clock it needs the signal from the source clock but can accept multiple signals from various clocks. These clocks become 'slaves' to the Master clock, thus their performance ( in the timing domain) draws closer to that of the Master clock. Eg. your sCLK ex clocks take on board the characteristics (improved timing) of the OCXO Master clock in the MUTEC.

[ElviaCaprice]

29 minutes ago, lmitche said:

And others have found the Iso Regen to be a great benefit, so let's keep the story balanced please.

Fair enough, I never said otherwise.  You took my point out of context and made it sound like my observations we're due to user error.  When the only point I was trying to get at was that the crystal clock in the ISO Regen, regardless of great measurements due to phase noise, is not the only factor which we should consider in what makes a better system clock.

[austinpop]

2 hours ago, ElviaCaprice said:

 

Even the tX-USBUltra is an unnecessary fixer if you can eliminate any of the remaining phase/power noise in the server.  In fact, you may just be reintroducing noise in the connection/power leading to the tX-USBUltra. 

 

You’re making an assertion based on your opinion - or have you tried this? If not, you don’t know that it’s unnecessary.

 

Most people seem to have found a further improvement with a tX-USBultra. Whether that is a worthwhile improvement for the cost is a separate matter.

[Kritpoon]

On 4/17/2018 at 11:37 PM, Johnseye said:

Next we added the Cybershaft OP-14.  We went back to using my custom server and the Windows 10 PC was no longer used at all.  The OP-14 provided the master clock solely to the sCLK-EX housed in my server.  There was an immediate and noticeable improvement in SQ.  There was more bass, but the bass was very defined to the point of clarity where plucked bass strings were discerned not just blended in a boomy sound.  In fact all instruments were more defined creating an overall richness to the sound.

 @Johnseye @austinpop Hi... please help to clarify this set as I may have missed something. This setup with the OP-14 is feeding the ref clock signal to the Custom Server (Running Roon Core/Server) -->ehternet-->SMS-200Ultra-->USB-->tX-USBUltra-->USB--->DAC?

 

Or is it

 

Custom Server (Running Roon Core/Server) -->USB-->tX-USBUltra-->USB--->DAC?

 

I am curious for the improvment is SQ with ref clock in the chain on the server side has an immdiate impact on SQ in the chain vs normal server + ref clocked renderer.

 

Thanks.

[Johnseye]

4 minutes ago, Kritpoon said:

 @Johnseye @austinpop Hi... please help to clarify this set as I may have missed something. This setup with the OP-14 is feeding the ref clock signal to the Custom Server (Running Roon Core/Server) -->ehternet-->SMS-200Ultra-->USB-->tX-USBUltra-->USB--->DAC?

 

Or is it

 

Custom Server (Running Roon Core/Server) -->USB-->tX-USBUltra-->USB--->DAC?

 

I am curious for the improvment is SQ with ref clock in the chain on the server side has an immdiate impact on SQ in the chain vs normal server + ref clocked renderer.

 

Thanks.

 

The OP-14 ref clock was connected to the sCLK-EX in my server.  That sCLK's taps were used for my motherboard system and LAN clocks as well as a tX-USBexp and tX-USBultra.  The OP-14 only has one output so we couldn't test it with the server and sMS simultaneously.  I don't think we used the OP-14 on the server when the sMS was in line.  Something we should have done.  Glad you brought it up.

[Kritpoon]

5 minutes ago, Johnseye said:

 

The OP-14 ref clock was connected to the sCLK-EX in my server.  That sCLK's taps were used for my motherboard system and LAN clocks as well as a tX-USBexp and tX-USBultra.  The OP-14 only has one output so we couldn't test it with the server and sMS simultaneously.  I don't think we used the OP-14 on the server when the sMS was in line.  Something we should have done.  Glad you brought it up.

 

Thanks for the information Johnseye, so in this particular set up (with Custom Server ref clocked) I assume the SMS-200Ultra was connected in the chain? and just not being ref clocked. 

[Johnseye]

1 minute ago, Kritpoon said:

 

Thanks for the information Johnseye, so in this particular set up I assume the SMS-200Ultra was connected in the chain? andnjust not being ref clocked.

 

During a few tests the sMS-200ultra was connected in the chain but not ref clocked.

[ElviaCaprice]

1 hour ago, austinpop said:

 

You’re making an assertion based on your opinion - or have you tried this? If not, you don’t know that it’s unnecessary.

 

Most people seem to have found a further improvement with a tX-USBultra. Whether that is a worthwhile improvement for the cost is a separate matter.

Of course I'm making an assertion, it's stated as such.

I have not tested this nor have I seen anyone do so, we just are not yet there.  But I think I can safely conclude from the theory of KISS, that as we bear out the last of the SQ damage being created in the server, that this, or any other fixer will become obsolete.

    

Knowing that, becomes a great saver of expense, which allows me to wait for the right technology/applications that will give me the biggest bang for the buck.  Meanwhile, I have put the front end, the least important component in the system chain, on the back burner for further improvement, until I see any reasonable path forward, from the sCLK-EX server, that is cost efficient (at least in my eyes).   Instead spending where I can get far more SQ for the buck.