A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming

[ElviaCaprice]

The only Chord DAC that I'm interested in (besides a DAVE for a song and dance) is the new Qutest (Hugo 2 internals).  It's just that I can't justify the lack of feature upgrades to my 2Qute for the price, $1700.  

 

So the 2Qute stays and I enjoy my music in bliss.

[Johnseye]

3 minutes ago, ElviaCaprice said:

The only Chord DAC that I'm interested in (besides a DAVE for a song and dance) is the new Qutest (Hugo 2 internals).  It's just that I can't justify the lack of feature upgrades to my 2Qute for the price, $1700.  

 

So the 2Qute stays and I enjoy my music in bliss.

 

No bluetooth on the Qutest which makes connectivity to my phone and car impossible when mobile.  That's why the Hugo 2 and Mojo with Poly are appealing.  With the Hugo 2 I may be able to replace my Audio Alchemy as it supports 768 PCM and DSD512.  1/3 the taps as the Dave but I'll need to listen to it to know.  The Holo Spring is probably the only other DAC I'm considering at this point.

[ElviaCaprice]

29 minutes ago, Johnseye said:

 

No bluetooth on the Qutest which makes connectivity to my phone and car impossible when mobile.  That's why the Hugo 2 and Mojo with Poly are appealing.  With the Hugo 2 I may be able to replace my Audio Alchemy as it supports 768 PCM and DSD512.  1/3 the taps as the Dave but I'll need to listen to it to know.  The Holo Spring is probably the only other DAC I'm considering at this point.

 

In all honesty, unless your a mobile nut, you would be far better off with separate DAC's for desktop and mobile.  You would tire of the constant switching out of the Hugo 2 from desktop to mobile.  Also it's not so mobile as you think, as far as size and weight, more like semi mobile, car fine.  Also, you would be worried of theft with the Hugo 2 mobile.  

 

If I we're you, I would have a try out, loaner, Qutest vs. Holo Spring for desktop.  For mobile, go low end for ease of use.

Didn't Holo come out with some other DAC's that do DSD and PCM only separate?

 

Also a mini mscaler is in the works. 

[lmitche]

6 hours ago, Johnseye said:

 

Jetway NF591-3160.  It's a great low power board but can't handle DSD256 upsampling.

 

I was going to search the threads that @lmitche started recently for a good board.  I have a Asus Q170T/CSM but it doesn't have a PCI slot which I now need for my tX-USBexp.  I already have the proc and memory for that board which is a new i7 which will handle the DSD upsampling.

John,

 

Tell me which processor you have and I'll tell you a good board capable of a direct to cpu Optane card and direct CPU connection for the tx-USBexp.

[Johnseye]

1 hour ago, lmitche said:

John,

 

Tell me which processor you have and I'll tell you a good board capable of a direct to cpu Optane card and direct CPU connection for the tx-USBexp.

 

It's the i7 7700k. The constraint with the board is that it needs a12-19v DC in. I may consider the HDPlex adapter if the board has Optane capability. 

[Hauser]

10 hours ago, ElviaCaprice said:

 

In all honesty, unless your a mobile nut, you would be far better off with separate DAC's for desktop and mobile.  You would tire of the constant switching out of the Hugo 2 from desktop to mobile.  Also it's not so mobile as you think, as far as size and weight, more like semi mobile, car fine.  Also, you would be worried of theft with the Hugo 2 mobile.  

 

If I we're you, I would have a try out, loaner, Qutest vs. Holo Spring for desktop.  For mobile, go low end for ease of use.

Didn't Holo come out with some other DAC's that do DSD and PCM only separate?

 

Also a mini mscaler is in the works. 

Music to my ears; the mini M Scaler part.  Is this speculation, wishful thinking or have you seen evidence from Chord that this is happening?

 

Martin.

[jay]

Team...

 

Long time listener, first time caller on this thread.  It's a treasure trove...sincerely, thank you all for the contributions in both time and money you've put into moving this forward and doing such a thorough job documenting it for us.  Given the progression over the last 15 months or so of this thread, I've read the last 3 months worth again page-by-page and hit the majority of the indexed topics as well from the beginning to try to align on current findings and thinkings.  I recognize there is still plenty of healthy, divided thinking on "best SQ" and this will continue to evolve quickly.

 

As a result of that reading, I have a few questions I'd love this group's opinions on as a current use-case...I know they are subjective answers but that's what I'm looking for...based on where folks sit today.

 

Quick background:  I'm very happy with my digital front end and I've entered my second decade of computer-based audio, so most of the concepts are familiar to me, as a baseline.  I've gone from modded macs (G5 towers and several Minis) with Audivana/Amarra through the Aurender path and then to Roon/micro-Rendu-now-Ultra-Rendu/usb-Regen-now-Iso-Regen.  All have been fun and awesome, and my journey continues as new findings and new products hit.  I skipped the Windows and Linux servers and C.A.P.S. (so far) mostly because my tech skills lack there, and I was ok leaving some SQ on the table sticking with the Macs.  I also felt like the Aurender then Roon/Micro-Rendu era let me ignore the true multi-use computer server side a little (not really sure that was true retrospectively given my current Roon needs)...so I fear it's time for me to rethink that.   However, I'm not willing to give up Roon/Tidal and my existing file-based library at this point, so going back to higher-end Aurender and the like is a non-starter for me right now.  I should add I have dedicated lines/balanced power, etc., so I know that that baseline is required to get the most out of the upgrades.  I also have fairly high-end tube pre-, 300b mono amps, and high-efficiency speakers, so I'm set on those fronts.

 

My current digital set-up is as follows, and I know it certainly has some limitations on what is possible:

• current Mac Mini (out of the box) with Roon server/NAS/usb-external drive for music > series of netgear switches/generic Cat 6 travelling the length of the house > UltraRendu (Sonore LPS) > Sublon USB > IsoRegen (LPS-1) > USPCB > Schiit Yggy

On order, but yet in, the system will become, with some of those limitations obviously still in place:

• current Mac Mini (out of the box) with Roon server/NAS/usb-external drive for music > series of netgear switches/generic Cat 6 Audioquest Cat7 dedicated 25' run (from another room)  > Sotm modded switch/clock (LPS 1.2) > Sotm dCBL-CAT7 > UltraRendu sMS-200ultra (external clock-capable) (Sonore LPS) > Sublon USB > IsoRegen (LPS-1) > USPCB > Schiit Yggy

 

I expect big SQ improvements once these additions/subtractions are in the system, but here is my question specifically on moving it forward from there:

 

After this, what is (are) the most value-added, logical next step(s)?

1. Complete the tri-fecta and order a tX-USBultra, play with IR in front and behind, etc.
2. Add an external reference clock
3. 1+2
4. Go purpose-built SE or SGM-like server, consider HQPlayer in the software mix if hardware is capable and benefits are there (may not help with Yggy)
5. DAC upgrade (with or without 4)
6. if 5, consider Blu2/Dave or other m-scaler/DAC solutions instead of 4+5

 

There are probably others I'm missing.

 

From the experienced here that have gone before me, what would you heavily consider next?

 

thanks, Jay

[Cornan]

For those interested in how Stammheims HPULNs turned out pre and post LPS-1.2 can read about my initial impressions here:

 

 

This is the chain I tested: Gophert csp-3205II>3A HPULN>LPS-1.2>3A HPULN>BluWave Spdif output (GI)

 

[d_elm]

1 hour ago, jay said:

Team...

 

Long time listener, first time caller on this thread.  It's a treasure trove...sincerely, thank you all for the contributions in both time and money you've put into moving this forward and doing such a thorough job documenting it for us.  Given the progression over the last 15 months or so of this thread, I've read the last 3 months worth again page-by-page and hit the majority of the indexed topics as well from the beginning to try to align on current findings and thinkings.  I recognize there is still plenty of healthy, divided thinking on "best SQ" and this will continue to evolve quickly.

 

As a result of that reading, I have a few questions I'd love this group's opinions on as a current use-case...I know they are subjective answers but that's what I'm looking for...based on where folks sit today.

 

Quick background:  I'm very happy with my digital front end and I've entered my second decade of computer-based audio, so most of the concepts are familiar to me, as a baseline.  I've gone from modded macs (G5 towers and several Minis) with Audivana/Amarra through the Aurender path and then to Roon/micro-Rendu-now-Ultra-Rendu/usb-Regen-now-Iso-Regen.  All have been fun and awesome, and my journey continues as new findings and new products hit.  I skipped the Windows and Linux servers and C.A.P.S. (so far) mostly because my tech skills lack there, and I was ok leaving some SQ on the table sticking with the Macs.  I also felt like the Aurender then Roon/Micro-Rendu era let me ignore the true multi-use computer server side a little (not really sure that was true retrospectively given my current Roon needs)...so I fear it's time for me to rethink that.   However, I'm not willing to give up Roon/Tidal and my existing file-based library at this point, so going back to higher-end Aurender and the like is a non-starter for me right now.  I should add I have dedicated lines/balanced power, etc., so I know that that baseline is required to get the most out of the upgrades.  I also have fairly high-end tube pre-, 300b mono amps, and high-efficiency speakers, so I'm set on those fronts.

 

My current digital set-up is as follows, and I know it certainly has some limitations on what is possible:

• current Mac Mini (out of the box) with Roon server/NAS/usb-external drive for music > series of netgear switches/generic Cat 6 travelling the length of the house > UltraRendu (Sonore LPS) > Sublon USB > IsoRegen (LPS-1) > USPCB > Schiit Yggy

On order, but yet in, the system will become, with some of those limitations obviously still in place:

• current Mac Mini (out of the box) with Roon server/NAS/usb-external drive for music > series of netgear switches/generic Cat 6 Audioquest Cat7 dedicated 25' run (from another room)  > Sotm modded switch/clock (LPS 1.2) > Sotm dCBL-CAT7 > UltraRendu sMS-200ultra (external clock-capable) (Sonore LPS) > Sublon USB > IsoRegen (LPS-1) > USPCB > Schiit Yggy

 

I expect big SQ improvements once these additions/subtractions are in the system, but here is my question specifically on moving it forward from there:

 

After this, what is (are) the most value-added, logical next step(s)?

1. Complete the tri-fecta and order a tX-USBultra, play with IR in front and behind, etc.
2. Add an external reference clock
3. 1+2
4. Go purpose-built SE or SGM-like server, consider HQPlayer in the software mix if hardware is capable and benefits are there (may not help with Yggy)
5. DAC upgrade (with or without 4)
6. if 5, consider Blu2/Dave or other m-scaler/DAC solutions instead of 4+5

 

There are probably others I'm missing.

 

From the experienced here that have gone before me, what would you heavily consider next?

 

thanks, Jay

To keep the cost down but with attention to power, clocking, and interference I have

 

Netgear FS105v2(power, ext clock mods) -> CAT7 -> sMS-200Ultra -> USPCB ->

tx-USBhubEX(ext clock mod) -> Lush USB -> Codex

 

-sMS-200Ultra provides clock for switch and tx

-Cybershaft OP13 provides clock for sMS

-Pasternack RG400 coax for clocking

-SOtM devices powered by Uptone JS-2, sMS at 12V and tx at 9V

-Homemade DC starquad cables using Neotech UP-OCC 18 AWG copper with Oyaide DC-2.5G/DC-2.1GL connectors.  0.8 meter cable is 8 mOhm.

-all cables with JSSG

-switch powered by Uptone LPS-1.  Meanwell is on an Elgar isolation transformer and is the only SMPS.

-enjoy but allow a month for burn-in before evaluating anything.

-poly backed aluminum foil shield to cut RF to audio cabinet from portable phone base.

[jay]

@d_elm, So this is a dumb question, but where are you running the Roon core?  Can it be run from the SMS200 or do you have a server somewhere too?

 

It seems that you went the #3 route from my list, and also made some additional grounding/cabling/shielding, and have some 12V options in there?

[d_elm]

2 minutes ago, jay said:

@d_elm, So this is a dumb question, but where are you running the Roon core?  Can it be run from the SMS200 or do you have a server somewhere too?

 

It seems that you went the #3 route from my list, and also made some additional grounding/cabling/shielding, and have some 12V options in there?

I am using a  QNAP TS-251+ NAS with 8GB RAM.  I trialed Roon on the NAS but am using MinimStreamer on the NAS and MPD/DLNA with Openhome option on the sMS.

 

Yes, #3 route.

[ElviaCaprice]

9 hours ago, Hauser said:

Music to my ears; the mini M Scaler part.  Is this speculation, wishful thinking or have you seen evidence from Chord that this is happening?

 

Martin.

Was spilled by Rob Watts recently to some audio show members over at Head-fi.  He couldn't specify the date because of Chord's wanting it tight lipped, but said it's in the works.  This just makes plain sense, otherwise why would chord construct two low/mid tier DAC's terminated for such a component.  Definitely not for the BLU at it's pricing comparison.  Chord wants to take advantage of this opportunity and the sooner the better.

[austinpop]

Jay,

 

The answers are subjective, and value lies in the ear of the beholder (be-listener? ) At one level, the usual tenets of audiophila apply. Everything matters. The law of diminishing returns. And so on.

 

What has made this thread so popular, and fascinating to me, is that there are areas of the digital chain that are not supposed to matter, and yet they do, in profound ways. Things like the Ethernet and USB chains, clocks in these chains, system clocks for motherboards, and of course PSUs for purely digital gear.

 

One of the most illuminating findings for me has been the extent to which mid-tier DACs like the Codex and the Yggy - the 2 DACs with which I've had the most extensive experience, and with which most of my findings on this thread were derived - scale up in performance with upstream improvements. As a result,  I certainly, and many others, have ended up with somewhat unbalanced chains, where the amount invested in the DAC is dwarfed by the value of the upstream gear.

 

It was not my intent to end up with an unbalanced value chain, but it's where my ears took me. I do think at the point I am in my system, I want to focus on my DAC next, but everyone has a unique view and approach to "where to spend my next $."

 

Now to your questions.

 

3 hours ago, jay said:

After this, what is (are) the most value-added, logical next step(s)?

1. Complete the tri-fecta and order a tX-USBultra, play with IR in front and behind, etc.
2. Add an external reference clock
3. 1+2
4. Go purpose-built SE or SGM-like server, consider HQPlayer in the software mix if hardware is capable and benefits are there (may not help with Yggy)
5. DAC upgrade (with or without 4)
6. if 5, consider Blu2/Dave or other m-scaler/DAC solutions instead of 4+5

 

 

1, 2, 3 will definitely benefit SQ your Yggy greatly, as I have experienced this personally. In fact, @limniscate, whose system has the Yggy, has a dX-USB HD Ultra after his tX to allow AES to the Yggy. 

 

HQPlayer doesn't really help the Yggy.

 

As to 5 and 6, that's the normal world of "more SQ for more $$$$." I haven't heard the Blu2Dave in my system, but I'm sure it sounds amazing, as it should for > $20k.

[Forehaven]

20 hours ago, Johnseye said:

 

No bluetooth on the Qutest which makes connectivity to my phone and car impossible when mobile.  That's why the Hugo 2 and Mojo with Poly are appealing.  With the Hugo 2 I may be able to replace my Audio Alchemy as it supports 768 PCM and DSD512.  1/3 the taps as the Dave but I'll need to listen to it to know.  The Holo Spring is probably the only other DAC I'm considering at this point.

John, I too have and love my Holo Spring.  The only other dac that looks great on specs is the Denafrips Terminator, https://www.denafrips.com/terminator

 

Looks to me like fantastic engineering, ie) totally seperating the entire PS.  And it lists at about $4500.  

 

Check your pm

[BigAlMc]

Hi @jay,

 

Echoing @austinpops comments I think it's all subjective.

 

Broadly speaking there is a school of thinking that the purer/better the source then the less you need to do later to fix it. This points towards your option 4 and getting a great server. 

 

However given the gear you have already ordered I think the TX-USBultra seems a very compelling next move. Its way better than the ISO Regen (and I loved my ISO Regen) and I personally feel you probably wouldn't need the IR if you added the TX-USBultra. Tho as ever playing around is recommended and half the fun. 

 

Just my two cents but I'd add the TX-USBultra and that leaves the door open for perhaps a reference clock at a later stage to potentially maximise the benefits of the SOtM stack.  

 

If you are leaning more towards a server then the Innuos Zenith MKII is tremendous value. They Zenith SE is better but much more expensive and the limited run is sold out but they'll defo do something similar. 

 

FWIW I have the SE which is tremendous but the TX-USBultra still lifted the SQ even further. 

 

Happy hunting and let us know how you get on with the SOtM gear on order. 

 

Cheers, 

Alan 

[jay]

Folks, as always, I appreciate the thinking.  Keep it coming if anyone has other thoughts.

 

I'm probably going to hit the TX-USBultra next as a logical next move, and make sure it can take the external ref clock when I'm ready there.  Is the DX no longer available?  I've never run AES into the Yggy given my pre-Yggy USB investments, so I'm interested to read that people prefer that input.  I did upgrade the USB to USB5, but haven't done the analog 2 upgrade yet (and probably won't).

 

I have 4 2-channel systems, so my systems 2-4 get the trickle down from my previous "bests" on system 1, so I'm sure the trifecta will have a great home for a very very long time, regardless if I go a different route on the main rig.

 

For those running Roon with the trifecta, where are you running the core?  That is still confusing to me from reading people's profiles.  Do I still need my Mac or a better server to run Core?  Sorry for that dumb question.

[jay]

BTW, I did a 2 week demo of the Aqua Formula DAC @$14k usd and really, really wanted to love it from all that I read about it.  It was more detailed than the Yggy (which I feel is already super detailed) and all other things equal, it had a bigger soundstage to boot, which I love.  But in spite of having a bigger soundstage and better detail, I found myself "looking" at the distinct parts of the image, and seeing individual sounds rather than hearing the whole musical cohesive experience.  I won't call it analytical, but it was definitely at times distracting, and that pulled a lot of the emotion out of the experience.  Another dealer said "you really need to hear it with the SGM to get the most out of it."   The dealer that loaned it to me said "it's not what I would do with the money honestly...there are more musical options for you."  So that was basically saying to me either "plan on spending $30K on the upsampling server, HQPlayer, and DAC to experience the best of the Formula" or "keep demoing different DACs in that price range."

 

To add to the experience, I had ordered the Sublon USB, but had sent the Formula back 2 days before the Sublon arrived.  The Sublon, while kind of expensive, ironically was a massive improvement in soundstage and even a little detail with the Yggy, and didn't lose a step in cohesion and emotion...everything better.  So ironically that combo was better than the Formula alone at 1/15th the cost.  @austinpop the Yggy remains out of balance cost-wise in my system as well.

 

All of that is what caused me to find this thread again and start looking upstream.

[atxkyle]

14 hours ago, jay said:

 

• current Mac Mini (out of the box) with Roon server

If you don’t go the high end server route, might consider getting the Mac Mini server onto a clean power supply and ensuring you have the minimum number processes running on it.  I also use a network streamer (microRendu w 1.4 clock upgrade) but still got some very clear SQ benefits from optimizing my Intel NUC based Roon server (used AudiophileOptimizer to strip down the OS and am powering it with an SoTM sPS-500).

[HeeBroG]

22 hours ago, jay said:

 

 

My current digital set-up is as follows, and I know it certainly has some limitations on what is possible:

• current Mac Mini (out of the box) with Roon server/NAS/usb-external drive for music > series of netgear switches/generic Cat 6 travelling the length of the house > UltraRendu (Sonore LPS) > Sublon USB > IsoRegen (LPS-1) > USPCB > Schiit Yggy

On order, but yet in, the system will become, with some of those limitations obviously still in place:

• current Mac Mini (out of the box) with Roon server/NAS/usb-external drive for music > series of netgear switches/generic Cat 6 Audioquest Cat7 dedicated 25' run (from another room)  > Sotm modded switch/clock (LPS 1.2) > Sotm dCBL-CAT7 > UltraRendu sMS-200ultra (external clock-capable) (Sonore LPS) > Sublon USB > IsoRegen (LPS-1) > USPCB > Schiit Yggy

 

I think you should not forget that improving the power supply of your Mac mini can have a huge impact on sound quality. The Uptone MMK kit with Paul Hynes SR4/Uptone JS-2 LPS /SOtM sPS-500 would be reasonably priced and good value for money. Running the OS off an SD card will also lower the noise floor. These simple changes to your existing equipment can be very satisfactory whilst we wait for the dedicated server technology to stabilise with improved clocking etc.

 

[Theobetley]

Last night I got a Windows10 update now I cant bridge my wifi and my nic connected to my microRendu and get a connection to my dac. Anybody else experience this?

[rickca]

7 minutes ago, Theobetley said:

Last night I got a Windows10 update now I cant bridge my wifi and my nic connected to my microRendu and get a connection to my dac. Anybody else experience this?

https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/30376-a-novel-way-to-massively-improve-the-sq-of-computer-audio-streaming/?do=findComment&comment=794091

 

[jay]

2 hours ago, HeeBroG said:

 

Interesting idea...just checked out their website and that's certainly a super reasonable price.  I'm away from my home until later today,  but I think that's for the previous model Mac Mini, not the current one that I have.  I will try to confirm later today.  Btw, we did a head-to-head LPS-driven 2010 Mac Mini, stock 2010-era Mac Mini, and the most recent stock model a few years ago--the current model stock and the LPS-driven previous model were really close--both significantly better than the stock 2010 which I also owned at the time.  I think that one is bricked now, but maybe I'll try see if I still have it around and upgrade it with this kit to do a compare--it's cheap enough.  I will also look at running the OS off of a card.

 

In the meantime I went ahead and ordered a tX-USBultra this morning to complete the rest of the trifecta I already had on order.

[jay]

Sorry, looks like I'm wrong--this MMK appears to be for the current model.  Cool--will give it a try!  Ordered!

[Theobetley]

57 minutes ago, rickca said:

https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/30376-a-novel-way-to-massively-improve-the-sq-of-computer-audio-streaming/?do=findComment&comment=794091

 

 Did you fix ? How?

[rickca]

5 minutes ago, Theobetley said:

 Did you fix ? How?

I kept losing my internet connection over the PCIe wifi card which is a component of my bridged network adapter.  I haven't been able to resolve this problem.  It worked fine before.