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A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming


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Most important: please realize this thread is about bleeding edge experimentation and discovery. No one has The Answer™. If you are not into tweaking, just know that you can have a musically satisfying system without doing any of the nutty things we do here.

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It looks like that the phase noise of that ocxo is about the same as a crystek 957-25. ??? dbc/hz

Meitner ma1 v2 dac,  Sovereign preamp and power amp,

DIY speakers, scan speak illuminator.

Raal Requisite VM-1a -> SR-1a with Accurate Sound convolution.

Under development:

NUC7i7dnbe, Euphony Stylus, Qobuz.

Modded Buffalo-fiber-EtherRegen, DC3- Isoregen, Lush^2

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Just found more details about that impressive mod for Oppo UDP-205 below

 

http://www.cinetson.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=39919&start=45

 

25MHz TCXO here

 

http://www.foxonline.com/pdfs/fox924.pdf

https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/fox-electronics/FOX924B-25.000/631-1074-1-ND/1024779

 

27MHz OCXO here

 

http://www.sbtron.co.kr/english/product/product_ocxo.html

http://www.sbtron.co.kr/korean/product/pdfs/ocxo_sboc_25_sine.pdf

 

The clocks cables that were going between boths PCBs didn't seem to be all that special, and then the clocks themselves could be replaced by even better ones. Of course we should also power both clocks directly with LT3045 or LPS-1.2 etc.

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3 hours ago, nbpf said:

Thanks for providing the details about the power supply and, of course, for your original contribution!

 

I would be very interested in learning more about the potential advantages of using power regenerators like the PS Audio P5 as a means for improving poor AC power supplies.

 

This use case does not get very much discussed and the common wisdom seems to be that the first step towards a clean power supply should be laying down one or two dedicated AC lines.

 

Unfortunately, this is not always easy to achieve: I am currently renting an old and rather large flat with very old (and likely poor) wiring. Laying down a new dedicated AC line would be a mess in my case.

 

I have been wandering whether there are established means for assessing the quality of a power supply and whether a P5 or a P10 would be a meaningful  way of achieving a high quality power supply without breaking the bank.  

I don't own a P5 or P10, but as far as I've read you will not always benefit from a re generator. Much depends on the quality of the AC that enters your home. While a PS Audio power plant seems something very interesting, I would never buy it without testing it. Even while many people report positive results.

 

 

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9 minutes ago, seeteeyou said:

Just found more details about that impressive mod for Oppo UDP-205 below

 

http://www.cinetson.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=39919&start=45

 

25MHz TCXO here

 

http://www.foxonline.com/pdfs/fox924.pdf

https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/fox-electronics/FOX924B-25.000/631-1074-1-ND/1024779

 

27MHz OCXO here

 

http://www.sbtron.co.kr/english/product/product_ocxo.html

http://www.sbtron.co.kr/korean/product/pdfs/ocxo_sboc_25_sine.pdf

 

The clocks cables that were going between boths PCBs didn't seem to be all that special, and then the clocks themselves could be replaced by even better ones. Of course we should also power both clocks directly with LT3045 or LPS-1.2 etc.

I power a Pulsar clock with an LPS-1 (LPS-1.2 in the near future), however there's a Pulsar Power in between. I would advice against powering the clock directly from a LPS-1. Especially when the DC cable coming out of the LPS-1 is longer than 10 cm,. The bypass noise capacitor(s) should be very close to the clock!

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38 minutes ago, afrancois said:

I don't own a P5 or P10, but as far as I've read you will not always benefit from a re generator. Much depends on the quality of the AC that enters your home. While a PS Audio power plant seems something very interesting, I would never buy it without testing it. Even while many people report positive results.

 

 

 

An AC regenerator will ALWAYS improve the power delivery to your components.   Delivery includes lower impedance as well as clean.  

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5 minutes ago, Solstice380 said:

 

An AC regenerator will ALWAYS improve the power delivery to your components.   Delivery includes lower impedance as well as clean.  

I know, I've seen the Youtube post of Paul McGowan, but given the cost of a P5 or P10, a home audition is necessary. I'm not convinced that it will always be better. It can system dependent as well.

 

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Adrian with the Linear solution brought his switch by yesterday.  What a great person.  Keep your eye on this company, and buy the switch.  I have a linear powered switch I have been using.  Its a basic Netgear  gigabyte switch with linear power to it.  Comparing music from my internal storage to NAS, the linear Solution switch had a small but noticeable improvement in removing glare and some noise.  I can't put my finger on the noise, but is better when gone.  Music is now better from the NAS than internal storage.  Small difference.  If I had a plane Jane switch it would be a big improvement.   With music streamed via Tidal the improvement is much more dramatic.  Its just way more alive and right there.  Tidal is way more fun and enjoyable.

 

Be on the lookout for their upcoming server.  It is targeted to stomp on the Sound Gallery Music server and I see no reason why it won't do as such, for a lot less Money.  Adrian brought a plain old laptop with just their software for the new server on it.  It was just as quiet, if not more so than my full blown server.  I think the dynamics were not their, but that is to be expected.  Imagine how it will perform with 24 individual power supply via 7N copper wire.  Whoops, am I letting a cat out of the bag.   It should trounce all other out there.  Probably no need for ref clocks or accessories.  Just connect it to your DAC.  Exciting product.  

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2 minutes ago, afrancois said:

I know, I've seen the Youtube post of Paul McGowan, but given the cost of a P5 or P10, a home audition is necessary. I'm not convinced that it will always be better. It can system dependent as well.

 

 

OK.   Keep throwing PSUs and fixers at your power and ground issues.  

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1 hour ago, afrancois said:

I don't own a P5 or P10, but as far as I've read you will not always benefit from a re generator. Much depends on the quality of the AC that enters your home. ...

 

 

Do we know some reliable method for assessing the quality of a given AC power supply? Regenerators tend to be both expensive and heavy. It would be nice if one could measure or estimate how good (or how bad) a power supply is (perhaps at different points in time) before embarking in testing heavy and expensive gear.

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34 minutes ago, Solstice380 said:

 

An AC regenerator will ALWAYS improve the power delivery to your components.   Delivery includes lower impedance as well as clean.  

I guess the question is by how much? Can you elaborate a little bit on your experience with AC regenerators? What was your initial setup? Which regenerators have you tried or added to your initial setup? Thanks, nbpf

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Does the price of $659 include both the LS switch and the corresponding power supply, or just the switch?

 

If Roy’s DLink switch (modified by SOtM) is on par with the LS switch in terms of SQ, and knowing the price of the sCLK clock board ($700 with 1 output), I wonder how the upcoming SOtM switch (provided it will come with the sCLK clock) will be competitive price wise.

 

Are there any other owners of the LS switch? 

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Even though I own a P5 regenerator, I will shy away from making blanket statements. As I have reported, I do find it makes a positive impact in my system. Before I got my dedicated line, it sounded best with everything plugged into the P5. After my dedicated circuit, I found the dynamics improved by plugging my amp directly to the dedicated circuit, while leaving the rest of the digital chain on the P5.

 

I have not personally tried all the approaches - and there are many! This (AC power conditioning) seems to be a space with strong, conflicting opinions by the "experts."

 

Paul at PS Audio swears by the regenerator approach. Caelin over at Shunyata swears by their Denali. Audioquest has their Niagara. Synergistic has their Powercell. Jim Weil at Sound Application has his super-expensive power-factor-correcting conditioners. Then there's the DIY crowd here on CA that swear by the use of repurposed industrial, extremely low capacitance isolation transformers like the Topaz, with clean power strips with no filters. Of course, these things can sometimes hum like a substation in your listening room.

 

It's enough to make your head spin!

 

The one constant that no one usually disputes is a dedicated circuit. I would say if at all possible, start there. Nothing fancy, just 10 gauge Romex, and a decent power outlet. Get an electrician out to take a look. Ask around for referrals for one that has done "audio" dedicated circuits, so they won't just argue with you about how you don't need 10 gauge wire, blah blah. Also, don't rule out the idea of running outdoor-rated wire on the outside in a (PVC) conduit, if internal access is too disruptive.

 

As usual, Roy @romaz has tried more of these options than I have, and you can read his views here: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-electronics-blu-mk-2-the-official-thread.831343/page-196#post-14103671

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1 hour ago, austinpop said:

Even though I own a P5 regenerator, I will shy away from making blanket statements. As I have reported, I do find it makes a positive impact in my system. Before I got my dedicated line, it sounded best with everything plugged into the P5. After my dedicated circuit, I found the dynamics improved by plugging my amp directly to the dedicated circuit, while leaving the rest of the digital chain on the P5.

 

I have not personally tried all the approaches - and there are many! This (AC power conditioning) seems to be a space with strong, conflicting opinions by the "experts."

 

Paul at PS Audio swears by the regenerator approach. Caelin over at Shunyata swears by their Denali. Audioquest has their Niagara. Synergistic has their Powercell. Jim Weil at Sound Application has his super-expensive power-factor-correcting conditioners. Then there's the DIY crowd here on CA that swear by the use of repurposed industrial, extremely low capacitance isolation transformers like the Topaz, with clean power strips with no filters. Of course, these things can sometimes hum like a substation in your listening room.

 

It's enough to make your head spin!

 

The one constant that no one usually disputes is a dedicated circuit. I would say if at all possible, start there. Nothing fancy, just 10 gauge Romex, and a decent power outlet. Get an electrician out to take a look. Ask around for referrals for one that has done "audio" dedicated circuits, so they won't just argue with you about how you don't need 10 gauge wire, blah blah. Also, don't rule out the idea of running outdoor-rated wire on the outside in a (PVC) conduit, if internal access is too disruptive.

 

As usual, Roy @romaz has tried more of these options than I have, and you can read his views here: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-electronics-blu-mk-2-the-official-thread.831343/page-196#post-14103671

Thanks, I understand that a dedicated circuit should probably be the first step to do. In my specific case this is problematic, I have already check it with an electrician. Independently of my specific situation, I think that it would be nice to have a way of measuring or at least estimating how good or how bad an AC line actually is without having to lay down a dedicated alternative and perform listening tests or demo a very heavy and expensive regenerator!

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7 minutes ago, nbpf said:

... it would be nice to have a way of measuring or at least estimating how good or how bad an AC line ...

 

Yes, it would be nice. I would love to see all of this demystified and measurable. But I'm not aware of a way. Your best bet would be to try whatever units you can get your hands on for in-home evaluation. Plus the Topaz IT approach described by John Swenson has the advantage of being quite cost effective, although sourcing these Topaz units off of eBay can be hit or miss.

 

@romaz had the great fortune that Jim Weil lives a mile down the road from him, so he had the luxury of having Jim  personally come and measure his AC with instrumentation laypeople don't have. Jim's thing is power factor, and he makes some claims about the power-factor-correcting capabilities of his wire and conditioners that raise my eyebrows. But the results are what matters.

 

But you missed my point about dedicated lines. You don't need a test to determine if you "need" a dedicated line. They're almost always a good idea because you're replacing thin (14 gauge typically), old wiring with a heavy gauge with very low impedance. Remember - it's more about the gauge than it is about  being "dedicated."

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16 minutes ago, nbpf said:

Thanks, I understand that a dedicated circuit should probably be the first step to do. In my specific case this is problematic, I have already check it with an electrician. Independently of my specific situation, I think that it would be nice to have a way of measuring or at least estimating how good or how bad an AC line actually is without having to lay down a dedicated alternative and perform listening tests or demo a very heavy and expensive regenerator!

Googling on "Measuring Power Line Noise", gave the following resources...

 

https://www.google.com/search?q=measuring+noise+on+ac+line&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-b-1

 

The thread does suggest a couple of measuring device options.

 

Noting earlier posts, I am using a vintage PS Audio P300 for regenerating power for front end devices and preamp and have been happy with results.  I also have 2 in-phase home runs for powering the system.

 

Re "austinpops" comment about the P5, I have a friend who would concur that his system sounds best directly connected to a home run with everything else connected to the P5.  Despite the fact that PS Audio claims that their regenerators do not restrict power, we have observed that amps sound best when not on regenerator.

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5 minutes ago, austinpop said:

... But you missed my point about dedicated lines. You don't need a test to determine if you "need" a dedicated line. They're almost always a good idea because you're replacing thin (14 gauge typically), old wiring with a heavy gauge with very low impedance. Remember - it's more about the gauge than it is about  being "dedicated."

You are right, I missed the point. On the other hand, since laying down a new line would be very elaborate and/or expensive in my case, I would like to know that I have reasonable chances of succeeding before I embark in the enterprise. Also, according to  http://www.msbtechnology.com/faq/how-to-wire-your-house-for-good-power/, it seems that it would be wise to lay down two lines, one for the amplification and one for the rest: again more options ...  

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15 minutes ago, nbpf said:

it seems that it would be wise to lay down two lines, one for the amplification and one for the rest: again more options ...  

 

Yes, that goes without saying. Most people get several dedicated lines while they’re at it, since the incremental cost of adding every additional line is much lower.

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1 hour ago, BigGuy said:

Googling on "Measuring Power Line Noise", gave the following resources...

 

https://www.google.com/search?q=measuring+noise+on+ac+line&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-b-1

 

The thread does suggest a couple of measuring device options.

 

Noting earlier posts, I am using a vintage PS Audio P300 for regenerating power for front end devices and preamp and have been happy with results.  I also have 2 in-phase home runs for powering the system.

 

Re "austinpops" comment about the P5, I have a friend who would concur that his system sounds best directly connected to a home run with everything else connected to the P5.  Despite the fact that PS Audio claims that their regenerators do not restrict power, we have observed that amps sound best when not on regenerator.

You surely can measure the AC line quality with an oscilloscope and a spectrum analyzer. With a scope, you can use on channel 1 a high voltage probe and on channel 2 a current probe. Ideally, the current should follow the voltage. This means that according to Ohm's law you always have the maximum power. However, when there's a phase difference (for example 90°)  between current and voltage, voltage lags current or current lags voltage, you could end up in an extreme situation where the power equals zero because one of the two parameters, current or voltage is at zero. Any phase shift will result in a power drop (or raise where it's unwanted). Most of the time, of course, this is handled by the capacitors in our power supplies. Perhaps a more common and more difficult to cure problem, is the presence of unwanted harmonics on the AC. In an ideal world, a spectrum analysis of a 60Hz AC signal would give a single peak at 60Hz. What you will see in reality, is a number (or vast number) of even or uneven harmonics at frequencies above (or perhaps even below) the ideal 60Hz. It is a question of how much energy there is in these non-primary harmonics. This determines the noise level of your power grid. SMSP's are known for injecting DC on the AC power line and thus causing non-sinusoidal and harmonic currents.  Just as with sound, noise on power lines travels along superimposed on the ideal (intended) frequency. 

You can also test the voltage difference between ground and neutral. Those are only a small number of parameters I'm aware of. I'm sure there are lots of other parameters! I'm sure there are a number of people on this forum that are more knowledgeable than me on this subject  :-) 

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I read a couple of reviews about the http://www.lab12.gr/gordian.

 

The 6Moons review was partially in reference to the Kii Three speakers I now have.  That is what got my attention in the first place.

 

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews2/lab12_2/1.html

 

http://www.monoandstereo.com/2016/07/lab12-gordian-power-multifunctional.html


This is from the Mono And Stereo review for a quick description,

 

"The LAB12 Gordian power is a multi-fuction power distributor/conditioner that is a very cleverly constructed from the beginning and showed a great sonic potential. According to the developer, Stratos Vichos, it is "basically a unit that is designed to clean up your mains supply without affecting the dynamics of the system" - which I can fully confirm.  Gordian incorporates an industrial grade power analyzer which lets you inspect all the aspects of the AC power signal. Among other things it provides data about:

 
• Frequency (accuracy 0.0005%)
• Total Harmonic Distortion (THD - accuracy 0.005%)
• RMS Voltage/Current
• Power Consumption
• Power Factor
• FFT (Frequency analysis)
• DC Voltage
 

I see the price is around 1400.00 Euro.  That comes out to a little over 1700.00 USD.  I am not sure of the exact price for US though.. 

I just now noticed that they are actually available from Audio Archon.   I just purchased a Bricasti M5 from from Mike and it should be here tomorrow.  :)

I will have to ask Mike about the Gordian and get his take.

 

If this can clean the AC lines and keep the dynamics, the analyzer can be a very interesting tool/toy.

 

I thought about waiting to get the Gordian after getting my new systems setup.  But after reading the reviews again, I think that I will go ahead and order sooner than later.  It could be very useful in testing the affects of different additions to the AC lines.


 

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https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/38595-the-new-generation-ultracap-lps-12-user-impressions-and-questions-thread/?page=4&tab=comments#comment-798083

45 minutes ago, Superdad said:

You might want to sit tight on the "audiophile Ethernet switch" thing for a few months.  Were are working on something (yes a switch, but from the ground up, not a modification of anything) but we are not ready to discuss the details.  As usual for UpTone, it will be radically different, very effective, and a great value.  B|

 

Suddenly we've got so many options, though it's still somewhat tricky to find an Ethernet cards that's even better than the ones available from JCAT / Paul Pang / The Linear Solution etc.

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