A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming

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16 hours ago, Confused said:

I exchanged a number of emails with May from SOtM last week, and this was one of the topics covered.  It would seem that SOtM were using the word "dynamic" in relation to tonal balance, not in terms of dynamic range we (native English speakers that is) might read it.  Other than the tonal changes, in terms of detail retrieval/ resolution/dynamics (as we would understand the term) the Neo and original sMS-200 are "like twins".  (May's words in quotes)  And let's be honest here, is it not a little odd that a manufacturer would issue a press release stating that the new model is less dynamic than the one it replaces?  So either staggeringly honest, or "lost in translation" to a degree.

 

What I do agree with fully is your statement "I think we won't know until we've tried it."  So far we are speculating based on nothing more than a rather curiously phrased couple of paragraphs in a manufacturers press release.   My hierarchy of trust, from bottom to top, runs something like manufacturers comments, magazine reviews, user reports, high quality measured data, my ears.  So far, we only have the first of these. 

 

For the record, I have decided to get the Neo upgrade (or the Neo downgrade, for those not convinced).  My cunning plan is to do a last A/B/C test between the sMS200Ultra/microrendu/Devialet AIR before packing up my sMS-200Ultra for return.  I shall then repeat the test when the Neo'ed sMS-200Ultra returns.  I think this is the nearest equivalent I can get to an original versus Neo head to head.

G'day @Confused

 

You didn't happen to ask May if the new neo power board is able to be installed at home? I'm hoping this will be possible as I don't really want to be without my sMS-200 for too long ?... As well as saving on shipping ?

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2 hours ago, Confused said:

No, this was not discussed.  However, May did say that they are looking to get the Neo installation done by "local partners".  So the update may not require the trip to Korea and back.

Ah ok, thanks. That's good. I purchased mine through Crux Australia so hopefully they will be one of the local partners ?

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1 hour ago, lmitche said:

Finally done with this "mother of all DC cables" mod. Two hours in, sq has taken another leap. More then worth the purchase of $60 of Molex tooling. It will curious to hear what the next 48 hours brings.

 

Thanks to Rajiv for the idea!

I'm very interested! What are we looking at in the picture? 

 

Is it a double barrelled Gotham with the shields joined together? 

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13 minutes ago, lmitche said:

Yes, you are right. The idea was to emulate what Cornan had done with JSSG 360 on two separate cables. Sq has taken a big jump and I am hearing details never heard before. The impact is stunning.

 

I may create a second cable with mixed polarity on each cable and compare the two. Right now, it ain’t broken so I’m going to leave things alone.

 

Throughout the system replacing Canare 4S8 with JSSG 360 treatment with the Gotham has increased SQ.

 

Yes, as Cornan has discovered there seems to be some sq gains by having the positive and negative wires in separate cables (with some distance between) 

I made this cable several weeks ago as a test and I can't bring myself to take it out. It's 10awg trimmed at each end to fit in the screw terminals with separate jssg 360 for positive and negative. I first tried jssg 360 just on the positive but there were improvements again with the JSSG 360 for the negative as well. Even with such a short cable JSSG 360 still has a very nice impact on both positive and negative wires ?

[Bricki]

57 minutes ago, lmitche said:

JSSG 360 on any USB cable is highly recommended, just ask @Jud, @Forehaven, @Zorntel, @Austinpop and me! 

Absolutely! Highly recommended on my curious cable ??

 

Yesterday I tried a JSSG 360 on my audioquest big sur analogue interconnect between dac and amp. I wasn't sure if this was going to be a particularly good thing, but I am absolutely stoked with it! The music seems to have more colour to it and also comes from an even darker background. I used 1/4" braid to go over the 3.5mm plug (I use a chord mojo dac), however I would recommend using 3/8" braid instead because it is a very tight fit. 

 

I figured out that using some chopsticks and taping the end of the cable to them, the braid can be expanded and then it can slide right off onto the cable 

From here if you just hold the chopsticks and push the braid (with cable taped to the other end of the chopsticks) then the braid will slide right onto the cable ?. 

 

Another very nice improvement and well exceeds the value of the braid 

[Bricki]

Just to expand a little on what JSSG 360 brings to my analogue cable. 

 

On the track September in Montreal by Alison Bisson, listening to the first 30 seconds, there is a cymbal shimmer at the beginning that I have never heard so real with so much detail before. There is a real natural sense of the cymbal shimmering that it arouses a visual picture of the cymbal itself. Funny how I listened for several hours but it's small things like this that stuck in my memory. 

 

On another track, the last track on the continental shift album by Slava Gregorian and Al Slavic I noticed a clearly defined synth in the background that I hadn't heard so clearly before or really even noticed despite listening to this track over a thousand times. 

 

I'm very interested to know if others have tried a JSSG 360 on their analogue cables? 

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1 hour ago, sandyk said:

 

 It would be interesting to know if there are the same benefits to doing this to well constructed interconnects with 2  layers of shielding,. for those who live in semi-rural or rural areas with much lower levels of RF/EMI, or whether it is due mainly to better rejection of RF/EMI that our own electrical gear, and that of our nearby neighbours is causing.(including Solar Inverters etc.)

 

(I live in a semi-rural area these days,)

I live in a semi rural area as well and I am not aware of any solar inverters in my immediate vicinity (however there would likely be some within a kilometre). Despite this I would imagine that my own equipment in my house would generate a fair bit of emi/rfi... I have a number of devices on WiFi and computers and WiFi router all in my listening room so I'm sure there is plenty of interference just within my house.

 

I don't know much about the construction of the big sur cable I'm using but I don't recall reading about it having any shielding, so perhaps there won't be as many gains for those with analogue cables already with shielding. However, there were some nice gains by adding JSSG 360 to the supra cat 8 (as an Ethernet cable) and it is already heavily shielded. 

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1 hour ago, lmitche said:

My system uses one single ended analog interconnect from DAC to amp. Several years ago Jud introduced me to analog interconnects from Omega Mikro which are very thin copper ribbons covered with transparent film as insulation. The construction is fragile, and would not survive insertion into a tinned copper sleeve.

 

I don't know why these unique cables sound so good, but they surely do and I feel no compunction to experiment with replacements or modifications.

Interesting, thanks, I will have to google them and take a look ?

[Bricki]

1 hour ago, sandyk said:

 

The Ethernet cable may have benefitted by reducing the amount of RF/RMI emitted from the cable itself ?

Yes, I also have considered this to be a possibility. John Swenson has said that ethernet cables carrying high impedance ac leakage current will be emitting significant amounts of emi/rfi. I am using a gs105 switch with the negative dc output of the power supply that is powering it grounded (in fact it is the sps-500 - it's negative dc output is grounded as long as you are using the 3rd pin on whatever ac cable you are using). This means that the main cable emitting emi near my audio equipment is the one coming from my router to my switch. This is a 10 meter cable and I intend to put a JSSG 360 on the final meter or two of this cable for the very reason that you have mentioned ??... I will need some more 3/8" braid for this though. Hopefully I will get to try it at some point in the next few weeks 

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12 hours ago, Blake said:

 

I assumed this process involved cutting/soldering/re-terminating.  Now, I see that you are simply sliding two layers of the Electriduct tinned copper braid over the existing cable and then twisting some of the braid strands together and then taping it together.  So that is why members are saying it is easily reversible.?

 

A few questions from this JSSG 360 diy noob:

 

1. Rajiv mentions twisting wires from the two tinned copper braids together.  Is he just separating out a few strands from each of the two braids and twisting them together, or does this tinned copper braid have an actual wire incorporated into the braid?

 

2. Does the tinned braid have to make physical contact with the plugs on the cable, without any tape between?

 

3.  For a usb cable with separate power/data legs, do you put two separate tinned copper braids on each leg?

 

4. For a usb cable like the Curious, which has a separate naked leg, is it OK for the tinned copper braid to be taped on to the naked leg?

 

5. What size tinned copper braid do people buy to fit over a usb cable?

 

6. Would it matter if the tinned copper braid is substantially larger in diameter than the cable?

 

  

1. He is just twisting a few of the frayed ends together - really though, all that is required is contact between the two layers however a bit of pressure from some tightly wrapped electrical tape and twisting some frayed ends together is probably a good idea ?. 

 

2. Ideally you don't want to make contact with the plugs. The idea is to wrap a Faraday cage over the cable without any electrical conduction between the cable and the shield. Probably best to cover your plugs with some insulation like some tape first. 

 

3. I have a curious cable and just wrapped the whole thing in one JSSG 360 

 

4. I have done this to my curious and didn't bother insulating the 5v cable

 

5. 3/8" (9.5mm) will fit for both layers. It will expand - if it's a tight fit you can use my chopstick method posted further above. 

 

6. Probably not - but don't go too big

 

?

 

Also, as the braid expands in diameter it shrinks in length, so cut a bit longer than your cable and then it will get shorter as it expands over the plugs - then longer again once past the plug and onto the cable. 

 

Have fun and let us know what you reckon ?

[Bricki]

2 hours ago, mozes said:

Has anyone tried JSSG 360 on analogue interconnects or speaker cables? 

I put a JSSG 360 on my interconnect between dac and amp and got a very nice improvement. More colour to the music and a slightly blacker background 

[Bricki]

10 hours ago, austinpop said:

 

Many thanks to Blake for sending me his Ghent Gotham JSSG 360 cable. It arrived yesterday, and I let it settle in to my system for a few hours, between my LPS-1.2 and TLS OCXCO switch.

 

I did some quick comparisons last night between it and my reference - JSSG 360'd Audio Sensibility 7N UPOCC silver cable. Please note - since this was on my switch, I used Tidal streamed music to do the comparison.

 

Bottom line - to my ears, the Audio Sensibility was still a fair bit better. The Gotham cable is very nice, but the richness, density, and image size with the Audio Sensibility is something else.

 

There are 2 other factors that could be affecting this. First, Blake's Ghent cable is 1m long, while my AS cable is only 0.3m. Second, I don't know if the Gotham has had any burn in at all. @Blake?

 

I'll let the Ghent Gotham cable burn in for the next couple days, and retry the test. Stay tuned.

Thanks for this comparison Rajiv

 

Do you know if anyone has done a comparison between the audio sensibility and other high end dc cables? (such as zenwave or others) 

 

I'm just trying to figure out some rankings as I'm considering having a dabble in the high end dc cable market as it may well yield better results than my feeble DIY attempts??

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Thanks again to @romazfor another amazing, comprehensively detailed and riveting post. Thanks also to @austinpop for your ongoing jovial maintenance of the thread. I love this thread ?.

 

I find Roy's recent post very exciting with regards to the gains that can be made at the switch. I have, for a long time, hoped that uptone and others would produce a switch that could make up stream changes irrelevant and I hope that John can achieve this with the new EtherRegen. 

 

I have similar questions to @Johnseyewith regards to the nuc and how it would compare to a ultrarendu or similar where the os is already on an sd card with sonicorbitor fully loaded to ram on start up. So the difference to me seems to be the switch and the direct connection protecting the end point from other traffic. From what Alex has said about the EtherRegen, the end point connection will have it's own clock and will be protected from other network traffic, so hopefully that makes a direct connection redundant.

 

Also, @romaz, did you try the new sotm switch outside of the direct connection and did the direct connection still impact the sound with the new sotm switch?

 

Exciting times ahead ??

[Bricki]

My latest adventures with dc cables. 

 

Recently I was revisiting the first post in this thread with the brilliant collection of links that Rajiv has put together and I started re-reading one of the posts by romaz about power cables. Here is a quote from that post where he talks about dielectrics. 

 

"Here are examples of the dielectric constants of various materials:

 

Air (vacuum) 1.0

Cotton 1.3

Wood 1.4

Teflon (PTFE) 2.1

Polypropylene 2.2

Kevlar 3.5

Neoprene 4.0

Distilled water 34

 

Teflon and polypropylene are the most commonly used dielectrics because of their durability and heat resistance.  Certain manufacturers have gone to cotton as a primary dielectric (i.e. DHC, Zenwave) and I believe their results speak for themselves."

 

This got me thinking about something John Swenson said with regards to how dielectric absorption can effect the performance of a dc cable. 

 

Previously I have used chopped up bits of an audioquest ethernet cable with good quality solid core copper inside. A while ago I used all 8 conductors for a positive and all 8 in another section for negative. The results were underwhelming and I went back to my 10awg wire trimmed at each end to fit my plugs (in separate positive and negative wires). I wondered if all the insulation on each conductor was having a negative effect. 

 

So I stripped the insulation off each conductor. 

 

Then I wound 16 of the 28awg conductors together and using the handle of a cotton shopping bag (once cut it makes a nice cotton sleeve) 

I twisted the cotton sleeve around the conductor and used electrical tape to hold the cotton on. 

Ending up with a positive and negative each looking something like this... 

 

So I have 2 x 16 x 28awg. The positive is around 10cm long and negative is bit longer. I then did separate JSSG 360's around the positive and negative and put it in place between my lps1 and sMS-200. The end result is a very ugly looking "cable". But looks can be deceiving because this is by far the best sounding dc cable I have made. Everything sounds richer and smoother with better tone. Vocals have more of a sense of realism. Every note on the piano is better delineated from the other keys being struck. Brass instruments are less harsh and have better timbre. I think there is also a darker background with more depth and better image focus. 

 

Is anyone else using cotton as a dielectric on cables in their system? 

 

 

[Bricki]

9 hours ago, jean-michel6 said:

Hi,

 

 Congratulations for this nice trial. I am not surprised you get good result.  

However those will not last ,because copper will oxidize unless it is extremely pure occ copper. Copper oxide is a poor conductor. 

If you try the same thing with silver you will get result which last in time , silver will oxidize too but silver oxide is highly conductive.

I have several interconnect cable using air as dielectric and it gives very good result.

Thanks for this. I did wonder how long it might take for the copper to deteriorate after I stripped the insulation off. I didn't know that about silver oxide still being highly conductive. Great info, thanks ?. 

 

Are your interconnects DIY? If you have any pics or further info I would be interested ?

[Bricki]

On 8/16/2018 at 11:35 AM, lmitche said:

Jean-michel is right about copper. That's why it is tinned in the braid used here.

OK thanks. Yeah I wasn't sure if it was going to take weeks, months or years to deteriorate? Regardless, this cable has made quite a remarkable difference in my system and has put cables as a higher priority on my to do list. At some point before the years end I am thinking of investing in some better speaker cables (possibly tellurium q black II), ac cables and maybe an audio sensibility silver dc. Might have to wait for my birthday as an excuse ?

[Bricki]

On 10/19/2018 at 10:04 AM, austinpop said:

@flkin  - thanks for your valuable impressions of the Pink Faun 2.16 and Antipodes CX/EX servers.

 

And Roy, it's always fascinating to hear about your continuing saga! I feel you and Larry are on track to unlock another "massive" leap in sonic performance.

 

 

Comparison of sMS-200ultra vs sMS-200ultra Neo

 

In the flurry of activity pre- and post-RMAF, I have not had a chance to report on a comparison Eric @limniscate and I did. We were able to compare the sMS-200ultra Neo (the same one Roy mentioned above) with Eric's vanilla unit. Both units have a reference clock input, so we were able to run both with a reference clock from the Mutec Ref-10. We did this in my system, so the chain was:

• Vanilla: Router > TLS OCXO switch > Zenith SE (Roon Server) > TLS OCXO switch > sMS-200ultra > tX-USBultra > DAC
• Neo:      Router > TLS OCXO switch > Zenith SE (Roon Server) > TLS OCXO switch > sMS-200ultra Neo > tX-USBultra > DAC

In both cases, the sMS was running the Roon Ready application. The nice thing about this test is we did not have to rely on auditory memory to do this comparison; we were able to A/B them in real time.

 

Sure enough - there is a difference in sound signature between the two. I would not characterize this as a large, knock-your-socks-off difference. But certainly, SOtM have managed to alter the tonality of the Neo to be mellower, and not as "bright." I think Roy is spot on when he says it's reminiscent of the smoother tonality the original mR has. The Neo has smoother treble, and slightly improved lower mids and upper bass. As I said, it's reasonably subtle, but very welcome. 

 

The second finding is even more interesting. May had suggested I try their beta firmware, where they have a new kernel that they have tweaked. She wouldn't (and hasn't) tell me what exactly has changed, but I have to say, I felt the beta version sounder better for sure. In fact, it seemed to be doing the things Roy and Larry are reporting with their experiments - more dynamic and more expansive.

 

If you want to try it - AT YOUR OWN RISK, obviously -  here are the instructions from May. I strongly recommend you make a backup of your SD card before you do.

 

1. Go to the following link

  URL: <your eunhasu ip address>/beta.php

2. Enable the Beta server and save.

3. Go to the Eunhasu upgrade page.

  URL: <your eunhsu ip address>/upgrade.php

4. Click the kernel check. After that, reboot the device and test.

 

After testing,

 

5. Go to the beta page again.

  URL: <your eunhasu ip address>/beta.php

6. Disable the Beta server and save.

7. Reboot the unit and use.

Thanks for this Rajiv. I have been running the beta for a day now and it does sound a bit more open and perhaps a bit richer and more colourful as well. There are a few pops and clicks and gaps in playback but it's been fairly stable so far, but obviously not ready for release. 

 

I did change sd cards at the same time as making this change and I am yet to comfirm but I think that the SanDisk Extreme 64GB A1 U3 class 10 card that I am using has better read/write speeds than my previous card and sounds a bit cleaner. The faster card definitely helps load times and navigating the ui but I think it also results in a cleaner sound. I would like to try a SanDisk Extreme PRO card with A2 - it may sound a bit better again.

[Bricki]

13 hours ago, austinpop said:

 

Hi Roy,

 

This seems to swing the pendulum back to the best approach being having the NUC modified by SOtM with an sCLK-EX board in the chassis, that can reclock all 3 - the Ethernet, USB, and the system clock.

 

For the record - Roy know this well - I did try an early NUC with Adrian's Dream OS. The difference was that I didn't have access to an SR-7, and the NUC was provisioned with an SSD to load the OS. So, while not quite the optimal config that Larry and Roy have now found, this should have still displayed the benefits of the ramboot OS that Roy is talking about. Powered by an SR-4 set at 12V, this NUC (running Roon Bridge, with SE as Roon Server) did not outperform my SE direct.

 

Since I trust Roy's ears, I've got to believe that it's the PSU that makes the difference - along with using the USB stick to boot. I am waiting to confirm this with a DS-1 when Adrian sends me one.

The other difference I can see between the ds1 and the nuc that Larry and Roy have been using is the latency time that Larry measured was 4-5 us and the ds1 with dream os has on the tls website processor latency as 12 us and os latency at 10 us.... I think Roy's original findings were with an early version of the ds1 with dream os?? So it would be interesting to know if Roy was able to compare Larry's celeron end point nuc (with his trimmed audiolinix) with the ds1 with dream os.... 

 

Or perhaps there are more differences in in the processor architecture like the smart cache and each core being able to use all the level 1 cache (if 1 core active) like what Roy was talking about earlier. 

[Bricki]

12 hours ago, lmitche said:

Fred,

 

Having spent three months working through various NUC configurations, DC power quality is one aspect, and not the most important aspect, impacting NUC SQ. Galvanic isolation, vibration control, software configuration are three additional factors that greatly impact SQ. There are more.

 

SQ is like nothing else I have heard. We are in the end game.

 

Larry

Hi Larry 

 

For the celeron nuc that you configured for Roy, were there any other changes made besides loading audiolinux off a usb stick in headless ramboot mode and configured as a roon end point? 

 

And if connected to a dac that doesn't require usb power (or Iso regen) and no other usb peripherals what is the minimum psu requirements? I assume it's going to require more than the 12v 1.1a of the lps1.2? Have you tried to boot it off the lps1.2? Are you still powering yours with your sigma 11?

 

Also, what vibration control are you using? 

 

Thanks ?

Brendan 

[Bricki]

16 minutes ago, Middy said:

Shame on Akasa, the NUC case isn't great from experts on fanless heat management. Messed up the most important part.. 1200 -2000 grit lapped.

Stage one..done..block is easy but case and screw holes isn't. PM me if i can help anyone.

.

 

I ordered my case a few days ago but it won't arrive for another month.... Are you having overheating issues in extreme mode with the case? Does it feel super hot? 

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14 minutes ago, lmitche said:

They run between 40 and 50 degrees C in the Akasa case in extreme mode. The top feels forehead hot.

 

I looked based on Middys earlier comments and I did't see anything but a very shiny heatsink surface. It was mirror shiny not like the picture above.

OK thanks Larry. Hopefully my one will be of similar quality to yours. I was going to order one from Amazon but when I woke up the next morning all 3 were gone and the UK sites won't ship to Australia... So I had to order one on ebay shipping from Italy. I hope the correct case turns up because it showed a different case in the picture but the correct model number ?. 

 

I did manage to find a nuc7cjyh in stock in Australia but I think it was the last one ?. It should arrive this week and I will post some impressions in a few weeks.. I will try and get roon server running in ramboot extreme headless on my sonicTransporter i5 and run roon Bridge ramboot headless extreme on the nuc7cjyh... 

 

I bought 4GB of Kingston cl17 2400 ddr4. But I did notice Roy had a compatibility problem with Kingston hyperx and the nuc7cjyh.

 

What ram are you using with the nuc7cjyh? 

 

Thanks again for sharing all your results with us on CA Larry. We are very grateful?

 

Cheers 

Brendan 

[Bricki]

2 minutes ago, lmitche said:

Brendan,

 

I'm using Crucial Sport Ballistix CL16 memory.

 

Larry

Hmmm.. Does the cl16 mean that it has a lower latency than the cl17 I ordered? Perhaps I bought the wrong one ?

[Bricki]

19 minutes ago, lmitche said:

It's this stuff:

http://www.crucial.com/usa/en/memory-ballistix-sport-lt-ddr4-sodimm

OK thanks. It looks like your ram will perform better than mine due to lower latency. Have you noticed a sq difference with different ram on the nucs that you have built so far? If so, is it a minor difference? Does all 2400 ddr4 ram get you roughly in the same ball park sq wise? 

[Bricki]

7 minutes ago, lmitche said:

Having used cl 17 and cl 16 in various builds here. I can't say there is much of a difference. As cl 16 costs almost the same as cl 17 here, why not?

OK thanks ?. Indeed why not - if I had my time again I would go for the cl16, but it wasn't a parameter I was thinking about at the time. 

 

Thanks again ?

Brendan 

[Bricki]

35 minutes ago, Johnseye said:

 

 

Maybe 

 

 

 

Seriously though you need to read through Roy's hypothesis again.  In his opinion processor cache is a factor.  That Jetway you linked has 2M cache.  I think we're all guessing and trying to figure it out at this point, but one thing's for certain is that these NUC 7s sound great.

I think Roys conclusion was that it had more to do with core count than cache size. When he compared the i7 nuc with one core active (the smart cache allowing all 8MB to be used by one active core) it didn't sound as good as all cores active. I think he concluded that roon bridge was multi threaded and benefited from all cores active... ?☺️