A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming

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On 11/23/2017 at 7:23 PM, Cornan said:

 

Why not? ? Any suggestion of a great 2 x >5 watt tube amp?

Hi Micael, I have these on order.. Thought I'd tempt you....:).

2.7w mono blocks to drive my 94db Omegas. Plenty of power...

http://www.decware.com/newsite/SE84UFO3.html

Of interest is the tube stage which supplies clean power:

 

"....The result of the series vacuum tube power supply is a complete blocking of power supply harmonics, noise, hash, grain, and spikes. Similar to pure DC from a battery but with more current. This clean power allows the transparency of a Zen Triode to go deeper. You can get a similar effect from our basic model if you were to plug it into a $6500 power re-generator/conditioner with fan noise, more power cords etc. In the Zen Triode, the clean power from the vacuum tube is only inches away from the input stage which uses it, and there are no connectors or plugs or circuit boards to complicate matters."...

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15 hours ago, Speedskater said:

OK so do some quick and dirty blind listening tests.

 

As Art Dudley of Stereophile Magazine wrote:

Audio enthusiasts are given to reporting any number of things.

 

In the past, the hobby was about real supportable improvements, not just wasting time and money.

If several different people, worthy of respect, who live in different parts of the world, have spent years and lots of their own hard earned money in pursuit of better audio quality and no doubt in the process develop the ability to notice significant improvements - IF they try some new, not done before combination of components/tweaks etc and report important and significant break throughs. THAT for me is valuable and much appreciated information... These things should be seen in context. Demanding and re-demanding the same pioneers also satisfy self imposed standards seems out of place especially here, if they have declined previously due to lack off interest/resources.

 

Just saw this has been taken care of later in thread..:)

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On 12/15/2017 at 7:15 AM, austinpop said:

 

 

I think I've said this before, but it bears repeating from time to time, so people reading this thread are clear about all the confusing clock mods that get tossed around here!

 

The whole approach being discussed here with sCLK-EX and reference clocks is NOT ABOUT replacing clocks IN THE DAC! Why? Because most DAC designers - like Ted explains in his video - already take extraordinary care to use high-quality, low-phase-noise clocks in their DACs. It takes an extraordinary clock to improve on this. 

 

No - the clock mods being discussed here apply to the usually crappy oscillators found in switches, mobos, Ethernet and USB interfaces, and the like. Replacing these with high-quality, low-phase-noise clocks like the sCLK-EX, and further improved by OCXO reference clocks like the Ref 10, Cybershaft, etc, is what is yielding the SQ improvements so many of us are hearing.

 

I also want to be upfront about the fact that we do not really understand why we are hearing these SQ improvements. The SQ improvements undoubtedly exist. Our ears don't lie, and so many here have now heard the benefit. But the fact remains that there is not (yet) a clear scientific explanation for why we are hearing an SQ improvement. This is the usual point of divergence between the subjectivists and the objectivists. The former will accept and enjoy the benefit, while the latter will question whether, absent an explanation, the SQ benefit actually exists.

 

I like the approach @JohnSwenson is taking. Rather than being dogmatic, he's digging into the "why" and appears to be making some real headway into understanding what is going on.

 

Even though I am a subjectivist, I am not blind to the fact that this is a puzzle. So - what is the puzzle, really? Primarily, it relates to buffers - or buffering. Ted refers to this in the video. Simply put, the question is this: why would the "quality" of an upstream clock matter, when the data being clocked is flowing into a buffer? What is a buffer? In the most abstract sense, it is an area of storage (in this context, in a device's memory) where data is staged before being sent on. In a buffer, data can arrive and leave at different (clock) rates. Think of the buffers involved in a Tidal stream playing through Roon:

• The stream flows in from your ISP into your modem/router
• Switches and routers often have buffer memory at each port
• data flows into the Roon server over the network interface, into a memory buffer in the Roon application, from which it then flows out over the network interface
• data flows into a streamer (like the sMS-200ultra) over the network interface into a memory buffer in the Roon Ready app, before then flowing out over the USB interface
• many DACs implement a buffer into which data flows in over USB, say, and is then internally clocked in via the DAC's clock.

At every such buffer, if the data is received without error, then it is reasonable to ask - why on earth does the phase noise or jitter characteristics of the clock upstream of the buffer have any effect downstream of the buffer? It's a reasonable question, and is ofter the point of contention when people start arguing about this stuff.

 

Pending breakthroughs by the people actually digging into this - like John - I only have some conjectures. 

 

My strong suspicion is that what we are hearing is the effect of low phase noise clocks on good ol' fashioned analog noise. Let's not think of our long spaghetti chains in terms of their digital functionality, but rather as a connected chain of electronic components, through which analog noise can propagate. Perhaps the impact of low phase noise clocks upstream of the DAC is not in the digital domain, but rather to somehow reduce or mitigate analog noise, either in the data path, the ground plane, or both. Again - this is just a conjecture on my part.

 

One of the primary reasons for this conjecture is our other observation of what drives massive SQ improvements in this upstream chain - PSU quality. I've said before that clock quality and PSU quality are independent axes of optimization. We have ample evidence that extreme optimization on either of these axes has a marked effect on SQ.

 

I'll leave you with an intriguing thought. Do extreme optimizations on the PSU axis reduce the impact of clock optimizations? Roy's latest findings (over on head-fi) with the Zenith SE suggest this might be a distinct possibility. The Zenith SE does not have any heroic clock optimizations that we know of. What it does have are extreme PSU optimizations. The fact that Roy found it equalled or surpassed his reclocked server - at least in some areas - is highly intriguing. 

 

I expect to explore this further soon. But it does underscore the fact that there is much more research and analysis needed to explain why we are hearing these SQ improvements.

Thanks so much Rajiv for your summary. I have been watching progress here with much interest to see where it leads before plunging into adopting the clocking discoveries, which I have been tempted to do several times. I have been focusing on power optimising for the past year after I realised just how important it is overall - much more important that other things once a decent system has been put in place. Looking forward with much interest to where this is leading next.

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12 hours ago, sandyk said:

Yes, I know, it isn't supposed to be possible.  

 

Love it!

 

 

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3 hours ago, Lebouwsky said:

If you want to try the Chinese stuff I can advice you Teradak. I own 2 pieces of the 30W version. So far they’re reliable and ok from a price/quality/power perspective. I also own the Sotm sps500, they’re from a whole different league, highly recommanded and have a much higher re-sale value

+1

I agree. I've modded the caps in my R Core Teradak DC-30, followed by LT3045s, its a high quality and bargain price power source.

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12 hours ago, austinpop said:

Preliminary Review of Paul Hynes SR-4

 

I received the SR-4, along with the silver DC3FSXLR with 2. 1mm Switchcraft cable the day I was leaving for a week long vacation. As a result, @limniscate got to spend some quality time with it, and put in some hours of burn in! Since then, it has received another 150 hours of burn in chez moi, along with all the other new gear in my system.

 

I had a chance to do some comparisons of the SR-4 vs. the LPS-1, both in my system and Eric's. The reason I am calling this review preliminary is because I wanted to go deeper, and experiment with these two PSUs in different parts of my chain, but this has been interrupted due to the failure of my tX-USBultra. When I get a chance after my tX-USBultra comes back, I will update this review with new findings, if any.

 

As it stands, I looked at 2 scenarios:

1. Powering the tX-USBultra in my trifecta: modded switch > modded sMS-200 > ISO-R > tX-USBultra > Codex > Cavalli LAu > HD800
   • I set the SR-4 to 7V, to match the LPS-1
   • I used the DC3FSXLR silver cable on the SR-4
   • I used a Ghent Canare 4S6/Oyaide cable on the LPS-1
   • The switch, sMS-200, and the ISO-R were all powered by LPS-1s - I only varied between SR-4 and LPS-1 on the tX-USBultra
      
2. Powering the dX-USB HD Ultra in Eric's setup: Zenith SE > dX-USB HD Ultra > Yggdrasil > AR Ref 6 > Sanders Magtech > Magnepan 3.7i
   • We set the SR-4 to 12V, and compared it to 2 x LPS-1s in series (each set to 7V and 5V respectively)
   • We used the DC3FSXLR silver cable on the SR-4
   • We used a home brew Canare 4S6 serial cable on the LPS-1s
   • In this config, we used the internal music player in the SE, with music files on local SSD.

Sonic Impressions

In setup 1, I felt both PSUs performed at equivalent "quality." While the LPS-1 had just a tad more air and apparent resolution, it was also the brighter of the two. Remember - this is not a criticism. These are purely comparative remarks. Both PSUs sounded wonderful.

 

The SR-4 had its own charms. There was a calmness, a blacker background. The mids in particular had a more natural, sweeter tonality and richness that was very appealing. Consistent with the apparent brightness of the LPS-1, the SR-4 had a darker tonal palette, overall.

 

In setup 2, the differences between the two were smaller. The LPS-1 did not appear brighter at all, while still delivering just a smidge more resolution and micro-detail. The SR-4 had a tad more bass. Again, both sounded wonderful.

 

Conclusions

The SR-4 is a fantastic PSU. While I have not (yet) heard the legendary SR-7, it is clear the SR-4 is a stellar design. In comparison to the LPS-1, it has comparable performance. Arguably, in some systems it may have a sonic edge, but it would be hard to generalize that statement. While the price of the SR-4 plus cable and shipping is just north of $600, it does have the benefit of voltage settings of 5, 7, 9, and 12V, and the ability to deliver upto 3A of continuous current. 

 

In contrast, the LPS-1 continues to be a champ at its $400 price bracket. My admiration of this PSU continues unabated. If your PSU needs fit within 7V and 1.1A, you really need look no further than this beauty.

 

Win-win!

Thanks for the extensive review. 

I have also had an SR4 for a few weeks which replaced a modded Teradak DC30. I found that LT3045 voltage regs after it are not needed* now as there is no improvement with the SR4 in place, a testament to the quality of the SR4. (*Unless the regs are needed for voltage drops using DC Y splitter cables. )

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18 hours ago, Johnseye said:

..considering the hassles in wait time, risk, etc, etc...well I've said enough.

If you mean the SR4 - that is misleading. I ordered one and it arrived in a couple of days. It’s a very high quality LPSU. 

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8 hours ago, Johnseye said:

 

You had unusual luck and must be in the UK. Everything I'm reading now is delays even with the SR4. 

Okay ?I didn’t know that. I was a tad concerned it was getting a a bad rap. 

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8 hours ago, austinpop said:

I sure hope Innuos's (or SOtM's or Antipodes') future systems give us the best of both worlds.

Thank you Rajiv! Awesome post, much appreciated.

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1 hour ago, austinpop said:

 

I have never implemented bridging using MacOS, so unfortunately cannot help. I hope someone who's done it on MacOS can jump in.

I saved this from earlier in the thread, in case I needed it. It was posted  by @amgradmd ...Haven't tried it myself but might help you@zoom25

 

"For those who aren't fluent in Mac bridge networking (I wasn't), here's a rundown of how to do it:

 
Connect a Thunderbolt Ethernet adaoter into one of the TB ports and direct connect the ethernet cable to the DS DAC. Then do the following:

 
Choose Apple menu > System Preferences, then click Network.

Click the Action pop-up menu (gear icon) then choose Manage Virtual Interfaces.

Click Add +,  choose New Bridge, then select the interfaces to include in the bridge. This is important – select BOTH Ethernet and Thunderbolt Ethernet. This tripped my up for a while, as did several other things I won’t go into. Hey, I’m just a doctor, not a networking expert here! 

 
From there selected the option for DHCP to manage IP address for the Thunderbolt Bridge (too many Bridges!). Then I went into the DS Bridge II menu and manually put in a workable IP address, also including the subnet mask (the same as the Thunderbolt Bridge) but not the DNS server or Gateway. Maybe I could have put those in, but I didn’t need to. After waiting a minute, the router saw the DAC! Unreal. It is listed in my router client list as “CoversDigitalCo., LTD” who is the manufacturer of the Bridge II, I guess. I have no idea why it took me so long to get to this point, I swear. It seems so simple." 

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On 30/01/2018 at 5:58 AM, kelvinwsy said:

i am also considering going with a teradak linear psu for mobo and use my corsair ax760 platinum psu for the GPU.. please share your experience ...

 

21 hours ago, Lebouwsky said:

For almost 2 years I’ve bin using 2 Teradak 30W powersupplies. They’re very reliable, don’t run hot and they’re price/performance is good. That said, in terms of given sound quality, they’re “ok”. The Sotm sps500 was a huge step up for me. You get what you pay for.

I have modified the caps on my Teradak DC30W and it compares favourably with the best at a big diet price. With LT3045s after the output to drop down the voltage, it’s hard to beat. 

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6 hours ago, hurka said:

Sparky SBC (Motherboard) For AUDIO!!!!!

https://www.allo.com/sparky/sparky-sbc.html#features

Yes, I’m in the process of putting together an Ethernet >I2S Roon streamer. Sparky/McFifo/McDualXO/Audio g-d HDMI > I2S. 

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5 hours ago, hurka said:

Sparky little hungry and picky ,think the new lps1.2 the best choice.can upsampling amazingly, play via usb3 with externally powered ssd also perfectly.

Will power it with my P Hynes SR4

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On 13/02/2018 at 10:53 PM, sandyk said:

 John

 Recently I purchased a 2M - Canare L-4E6S, Premium Balanced Quad XLR Microphone Cable .

 I cut a 2 feet length from it , with the shield left open at both ends, and compared it against a similar length of 2 core mains cable at the output of my JLH PSU add-on before taking it further with the extra wire to both ends of the shield.

 I lost most of the 3D effect on better than average Quad Reel to DVD-A stereo downmixed material, so I didn't bother taking  the final step.

I was using a 12V 15,000mAH Li Ion battery into a JLH PSU add-on to power a USB memory stick via an Uptone USB Regen.

 I believe that the gauge of wire used in the microphone lead was way too thin to compensate for the much lower resistance of the same length of power cord.

What I am suggesting here is that for best results you may need to use heavier gauge wire Quad leads.

 

Regards

Alex

I made some ac power cords with canare starquad cable but used 2 lengths per cable as it’s not heavy enough for ac. I used one length for + and one for -, twisted round each other. Then I covered this with a JSSG, and added a separate earth cable twisted around this. Finished with a sleeve. Works well and it’s a bit like the construction of the VHaudio flavour 4 cable. You need plugs and IEC connectors with bigger screw holes as the cables get thick due to the 4 wires in the starquad coming together to make one wire for each of + and - at the ends. 

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16 hours ago, austinpop said:

 

Often. But not always!

 

This is my point. There are no self-evident truths in computer audio. Yet. 

 

The less dogmatic you allow yourself to be, the more nimbly you can adapt and adopt new advances in the field.

Wise words Rajiv and holds true for life also ?

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5 hours ago, str-1 said:

I will be happy to offer some thoughts once mine turns up and is run-in.  Paul said I would get it today or tomorrow.  But I haven’t yet received any tracking info, so I am not so sure about that.  Anyway, should be sometime this week.

 

I have the 9V tX-USBultra, so with that, can only compare the SR4 to a Gophert smps and the tX-U’s own smps (like you, I have some misgivings about opening up the tX-U and changing tne voltage, even though May said I could).  But I can compare the SR4 to an LPS-1 using my ISO Regen.

I've got an SR4 and it's great psu in my opinion. I prefer it slightly to the LPS-1, also I'm a big user of LT3045s with my modified Teradak DC30W in series but find they are not needed with the SR4.

 

While on the topic of PSUs, I find an clear improvement running the ISO regen on 5V - much better sounding as this bypasses the internal voltage regulators...

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I run my ISO Regen with a Ghent split USB cable powered with a clean 5v and then another clean 5v into the DC input. There is a clear SQ improvement this way. 

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6 hours ago, hurka said:

I did 5 months ago.But with sclk ex clocked sparky and singxer, the non clocked iso regen make sq down.

.. Okay, but I'm not ready for the sCLK route just yet. I'm keeping an eye on the findings of this great thread to see where it goes and what products will be born from it. I didn't mention (I've documented this elsewhere) but I have a Bluwave USB to SPDIF board after the ISO Regen, powered by the SR4 it's sounding pure magic.. This is getting a bit off topic tho'..:)

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1 hour ago, RickyV said:

Well reclock the ISO regen then. Sounds much better now. For me the ISO regen after the jcat USB femto didn't improve sq, still sounded lean. Jcat on its alone sounded more balanced.

With the neutron star 2 the sound is balanced nicely but with much better resolution and detail all over the place.

i think the crystek 575 shouldn't be used at the end of the chain, sound is unbalanced. 

Sounds interesting @RickyV but I'm not able to add a £350 clock to my USB chain ...Makes you wonder when we will see a system soon on this thread that has one monster master clock running all the clocks in a system...

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23 hours ago, Cornan said:

 

I did´nt know this was a thread to get off-topic at as long as it is audio related!  Anyway, I can sign your statement with ISO Regen>BluWave. It is truly a match made in heaven!  I am powering the galvanicly isolated Spdif output with a LPS-1.2 right now. Sounds great but experiencing some vinyl crack issues with the supplied SMPS at the moment. Expecting it to be sorted out tonight when I change to Gophert csp-3205II as a feeder supply. I will experiment a lot more with the LPS-1.2, but need to wait for all the additional parts to arrive.

Yes. I don’t use SMPS’s either as I find they usually detract from SQ. 

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4 hours ago, Cornan said:

 

I understand, but my Gophert csp-3205II is still a SMPS but a floating one and with no JSGT (DC- output grounding). After changing out the original SMPS to the floating SMPS LPS-1.2 sounds glorious powering the GI Spdif output of the BluWave board. Next up I will be adding LT3045s pre and post LPS-1.2 to see how that turns out!  

 

I wrote about it here yesturday and will continue to report my findings there

 

 

Always impressed by your dedication to the cause Micael! I am so busy these days with life that when I find a solution that works I tend to move on. As regards PSUs, my search is over with my modded Teradak plus LT3045s and an SR4, I have an LPS-1 in reserve too... My Sparky streamer project is the next chestnut to crack...  

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3 hours ago, Cornan said:

 

Thanks Patrick!   It is a tweakers duty to atleast try to make the impossible possible!  Actually the exploring or experimenting part of audio is the real fun with this hobby. You know all about it. You´ve got the tweaker genes. Right now they are probably just waiting for a break through in the the Sparky project before pumping the endorphins into your brain!  

LOL! ??

yes, I find they whole idea of running low powered, reclocked, isolated, clean powered, simple boards running simple Linux code very interesting versus big expensive servers... more to come when I make some progress....

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13 minutes ago, tapatrick said:

LOL! ??

yes, I find they whole idea of running low powered, reclocked, isolated, clean powered, simple boards running simple Linux code very interesting versus big expensive servers... more to come when I make some progress....

When wtfplay can be run on Raspberries then that will be an interesting breakthrough. Coming soon I believe...

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2 hours ago, Cornan said:

 

Yeah, that surely sounds interesting! ? I wonder when Fidelizer goes Raspberry? He seems to be moving in that direction anyway! ? Please let me know how it goes with Sparky. BTW. Have you seen that a new quicker (5G wireless network and 1.4 GHz processor) Pi3 model B+ have been released? 

yes I saw that. I've bought a Rpi 2 tho' as it's apparently quieter but haven't tried it yet. The Sparky is where my money and attention is currently but had a few glitches so I'm working on that when I have the time... too many options to try..

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24 minutes ago, Cornan said:

 

Pi is a little world of its own!  Do you use Alexey´s Mezzanine Power Board in the mix by any chance? http://www.ldovr.com/product-p/mpower.htm

No, I may get it down the line, but I have enough PSUs already to get everything working. Sparky, McFifo and McDualXO each need 5v 2a and Audio gd HDMI module needs 3.3v