A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming

[austinpop]

3 hours ago, romaz said:

wait for my flight to Fiji to take off.

 

I am past envy at this point! 

[romaz]

21 minutes ago, austinpop said:

I need to go back and research some posts by @paulhynes and @JohnSwenson, but I think I remember that the key principles for a PSU were:

1. lowest possible output impedance
2. highest possible impedance to ground - a.k.a lowest possible leakage currents, not just at DC or 50/60Hz, but through the audio frequency range
3. lowest possible ripple noise

I may be wrong, but #1 and #3 have been a design goal for high-quality PSUs for some time now. It would be very interesting to look at the specs for all these excellent PSUs side by side.

 

This will have to be my last post (probably for the next few weeks).  

 

More and more are talking about output impedance these days but apart from Paul Hynes and SOtM, no one else seems to be able to provide measurements.  I have to say it is disheartening to have manufacturers talk about how important a certain parameter is and yet they can't provide measurements.  It leaves the consumer guessing.

 

Regarding leakage currents, even John has failed to succinctly describe what this is supposed to sound like except that it is often subtle and so I'm pretty sure he isn't talking about the 50/60Hz hum that many of us hear with our amps or subswoofers.  My guess is that it's supposed to sound like some sort of a haze or fog.  All I can say is that with my SR7 compared against my LPS-1, I have absolutely no sense of such a thing.  Thus far, these are the 2 very best PSUs that have come across my system but you may not want to count the sPS-500 out.

 

Regarding how Lee applies filtration, I can't speak directly about the sPS-500 but as you know, Lee has intentionally stayed away from galvanic isolation (to DC) due to jitter issues.  With his iSO-CAT 6 LAN isolator, this device is designed to filter from between 10Hz-20kHz.  Because we are talking about the audible frequency range, he is unable to apply aggressive filtering without also adversely impacting SQ and so this is my belief why the iSO-CAT 6 LAN isolator has more of a subtle benefit.  With the filter block used in his dCLB-CAT7 and now in this USB cable that he made for me, he more aggressively filters the harmonic frequencies (from 100kHz to about 1GHz).  As you know, I found the impact of the dCBL-CAT7 to be quite notable when used within the "direct pathway" between server and Ethernet endpoint.  With this filter block applied to a USB cable, the impact seems even larger, possibly because the USB pathway is even noisier.  While I haven't accumulated enough hours on either this new SOtM USB cable or my Lush cable to draw any definitive conclusions, as of when I left home, I would say that the impact of the SOtM USB cable with the filter block is considerably larger and more desirable than what I was getting from the Lush.  With Uptone's USPCB adapter, this is probably as close to an "invisible" USB cable as you can get and so this adapter probably comes closer to "doing no harm" than any USB cable but when compared against SOtM's USB cable with the filter block, this filter block actually seems to be "removing harm" brought about by the preceding component.  In this sense, I greatly prefer it to anything I have yet heard.

 

As someone who is already familiar with SOtM's detailed, airy and expansive "house sound" that Lee strives for in each of his components, you might find the sPS-500 very much to your liking.  It's clear that Lee has tuned it to especially synergize with his endpoints even though it might not be the final word in low impedance.

[Superdad]

12 minutes ago, romaz said:

More and more are talking about output impedance these days but apart from Paul Hynes and SOtM, no one else seems to be able to provide measurements.  I have to say it is disheartening to have manufacturers talk about how important a certain parameter is and yet they can't provide measurements.  It leaves the consumer guessing.

 

Hi Roy:

I have had many long conversations with John with regards to measurement of the very important parameter of power supply impedance.

 

Like a number of other PS metrics, not only is it not appropriate to distill it down to a single number (and there is even controversy and variation with regards to which frequency range it is most critical to have lowest impedance--depending upon the powered device), but actually performing the measurement takes considerable skill and creativity.

 

I will ask John to write a short treatise on the subject.

And given some plans (products) we are working on, being able to publish some PS impedance graphs may be important for us--so he is working out some of that as well.

 

All the best,

--Alex C.

[austinpop]

8 minutes ago, romaz said:

 

This will have to be my last post (probably for the next few weeks).  

 

Safe travels!

 

8 minutes ago, romaz said:

As someone who is already familiar with SOtM's detailed, airy and expansive "house sound" that Lee strives for in each of his components, you might find the sPS-500 very much to your liking.  It's clear that Lee has tuned it to especially synergize with his endpoints even though it might not be the final word in low impedance.

 

You're right - I will have to try this out for myself. For now, I have been taking the LPS-1 claim of leakage current isolation at face value, unless there is a published metric I missed.

 

Recall my chain is:

- modded switch > modded sMS-200 > IR > tX-USBultra,

 

powered by:

- LPS-1 A: Y-cable to switch and sMS

- LPS-1 B: powers the iR

- LPS-1 C: powers the tX.

 

Assuming the leakage loop isolation claims of the LPS-1, there is an elegant architecture of isolation that comes from powering everything from the switch to the tX with LPS-1s. Further, the combination of USB isolation in the iR, and the leakage current isolation from the LPS-1s powering the IR and the tX create a seemingly nice isolation zone immediately prior to the DAC.

 

Now in reality, nothing is perfect, as we know.

 

My plan is to compare the following PSUs  to power the tX-USBultra:

- LPS-1, my current baseline

- sPS-500

- PH SR7, when @limniscate's unit gets here in the next 4-8 weeks.

 

Part 2 of this experiment will be to compare both the IR and the tX powered with:

- LPS-1 for each, baseline

- sPS-500, with Y-cable

-  the 2 rails of the SR7.

 

It should be very interesting.

 

P.S. GAAH - I can't wait for @The Computer Audiophile to restore the un-numbered bullet list in the toolbar again. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

Just tried to fix it, but can't do it from my phone. Will get it tomorrow. 

[austinpop]

From time to time, you have to enjoy the fruits of your labor, and for me, tonight was one such night.

 

A nice single malt, my easy chair, and this stunning album in DXD (24/352.8):

 

 

No comparisons, just my full system signing sweetly. This is what it's all about.

[AmusedToD]

Thank you @romaz and @austinpop for providing this wealth of information!

 

@romaz, would be good to know the price of the SOTM USB cable with their filter applied.

[phusis]

8 hours ago, romaz said:

... I would choose SOtM's standard sMS-200 paired with the SR7 over the sMS-200ultra when powered by my HDPlex.

 

Interesting finding, Romaz. If you could, then how would you rate the comparison of the regular sMS-200 + SR7 against the sMS-200ultra + sPS-500?

 

If I'm not in the need of a multi rail version, what's the sonic difference between the standard SR7 and its "DR" iteration (perhaps I should address this to Mr. Hynes)? 

 

Lastly, how many hours does your sPS-500 have under the hood? I'm asking, because I've found the sPS-500 (which I'm using myself with a standard sMS-200) to be "sensitive" with burn-in. That is, I find it needs 2-300 hours to settle in, and possible even more. Mine has some 400+ hours as is.

 

Thanks for your (and @austinpop's) extremely informative posts, which are always helpful and inspiring.  

 

And, bon voyage  

 

[beautiful music]

I asked Paul if he can make SR7 to power two devices with 12v and third one with 5v and the following his reply to email but as i am not an electrical engineer so i don't understand his reply, so if someone can help if he means that my request will degrade the performance of power supply or what? 

 

I can provide some range adjustment down from the nominal highest
voltage setting (5v to 12v should be fine), however this will require
de-rating of output current at lower settings (see the de-rating data in
the SR power supply information sheet) because reducing the regulator
output voltage causes an increase in voltage across the regulator output
device, which in turn increases the power dissipation in the output
stage generating additional heat in the chassis.

Regards,
Paul

 

And also he responded in another email as following:

 

I can provide some adjustment to the rails over a 10v span but, subject
to the level of load current the equipment under power draws, current
de-rating may be required at lower voltages due to the increased voltage
across the regulator output stage and the associated additional heat
generation. I was not specifically recommending 9v or 12v for the Sotm
items but de-rating should not be a problem when setting a 12v supply to
9v. De-rating may have to be applied when set to 5v although switches
are typically relatively low current devices so this may not be an issue
at all.

 

Regards,
Paul

[austinpop]

6 hours ago, sadekkhalifa said:

I asked Paul if he can make SR7 to power two devices with 12v and third one with 5v and the following his reply to email but as i am not an electrical engineer so i don't understand his reply, so if someone can help if he means that my request will degrade the performance of power supply or what? 

 

I can provide some range adjustment down from the nominal highest
voltage setting (5v to 12v should be fine), however this will require
de-rating of output current at lower settings (see the de-rating data in
the SR power supply information sheet) because reducing the regulator
output voltage causes an increase in voltage across the regulator output
device, which in turn increases the power dissipation in the output
stage generating additional heat in the chassis.

Regards,
Paul

 

And also he responded in another email as following:

 

I can provide some adjustment to the rails over a 10v span but, subject
to the level of load current the equipment under power draws, current
de-rating may be required at lower voltages due to the increased voltage
across the regulator output stage and the associated additional heat
generation. I was not specifically recommending 9v or 12v for the Sotm
items but de-rating should not be a problem when setting a 12v supply to
9v. De-rating may have to be applied when set to 5v although switches
are typically relatively low current devices so this may not be an issue
at all.

 

Regards,
Paul

 

Sadek,

 

I'm not Paul, but I can give a layman's explanation.

 

A regulator is a circuit that accepts a range of input voltages and outputs a fixed voltage. So the higher the difference between the input and the output voltage, the higher the voltage across the regulator. Linear regulators achieve this "regulation" by dissipating heat.

 

The amount of heat the regulator has to dissipate is related to:

1. The current flowing through the regulator, let's call it I
2. The voltage difference between input and output, let's call it (Vin – Vout)

By simple Ohm's Law, the power dissipated across the regulator is then (Vin – Vout) x I.

 

Note that I here is the current that is drawn by the connected device at the Vout voltage. This is what Paul is referring to here. If you require a low value of Vout (in your case, 5V) AND a high current draw, this will cause a lot of heat dissipation, and may exceed the rating of the regulator(s).

 

To answer your actual question: No, it will not degrade the quality of the power supply in any way. All it means is that the 5V output will need to be rated to deliver a lower current - whatever Paul deems is achievable with the regulators he uses.

 

I'm sure others will correct me if I got anything wrong here. 

[JohnSwenson]

2 hours ago, austinpop said:

 

Sadek,

 

I'm not Paul, but I can give a layman's explanation.

 

A regulator is a circuit that accepts a range of input voltages and outputs a fixed voltage. So the higher the difference between the input and the output voltage, the higher the voltage across the regulator. Linear regulators achieve this "regulation" by dissipating heat.

 

The amount of heat the regulator has to dissipate is related to:

1. The current flowing through the regulator, let's call it I
2. The voltage difference between input and output, let's call it (Vin – Vout)

By simple Ohm's Law, the power dissipated across the regulator is then (Vin – Vout) x I.

 

Note that I here is the current that is drawn by the connected device at the Vout voltage. This is what Paul is referring to here. If you require a low value of Vout (in your case, 5V) AND a high current draw, this will cause a lot of heat dissipation, and may exceed the rating of the regulator(s).

 

To answer your actual question: No, it will not degrade the quality of the power supply in any way. All it means is that the 5V output will need to be rated to deliver a lower current - whatever Paul deems is achievable with the regulators he uses.

 

I'm sure others will correct me if I got anything wrong here. 

What you say is correct, just a little bit of more verbiage around it.

 

A linear supply has a "raw supply" which is the transformer into diodes then the capacitor bank, this voltage is usually fixed. Thus as you change the output voltage of the regulator you change the voltage across the regulator. This voltage times the current flowing through the output is the heat the regulator has to dissipate. As the heat the heatsink has to dissipate increases the temperature of the heatsink and the regulator itself increases, at some point the regulator stops working. (ie "burns up" or "fries"). Many regulators have a "thermal shutdown" circuit that shuts the regulator down when the temperature gets too high to prevent actual damage to the regulator, but at that point the heat sink is going to be VERY hot, probably hot enough to boil water, that is normally not considered good for the longevity of the circuit.

 

The PS under discussion seems to have been designed for 9v - 12V, the heatsink was designed to keep the temperature reasonable with the rated current. If you go to 5V output and the rated current, the heatsink is going to have to dissipate almost twice as much heat, which will cause things to get too hot. The solution is to only run it at no more than half the rated current.

 

In reality things get a little more complicated, the voltage of the raw supply usually decreases somewhat as the load current increases. This means the unloaded voltage has to be higher than you would normally think. This has a weird consequence, as the output current goes up, the raw voltage goes down so the voltage across the regulator decreases which can compensate for the increased current. The result is that a large increase in current can result in a fairly small increase in the heatsink temperature.

 

Designing the parameters of a linear supply that will work over a wide output voltage range is not an easy task, there are a lot of things to trade off, the higher voltages tend to dissipate very little, the droop of the raw voltage is the limiting factor. On the low voltage end heatsink temperature is the limiting factor (actually regulator temperature). in-between voltages are the sweet spot, the raw voltage can drop a lot and you can pull a LOT of current before the temperature gets too high.

 

I know, more than you ever wanted to know about linear power supply design.

 

John S.

[JohnSwenson]

17 hours ago, austinpop said:

 

You're right - I will have to try this out for myself. For now, I have been taking the LPS-1 claim of leakage current isolation at face value, unless there is a published metric I missed.

 

 

 

I have built a power supply leakage tester, again a single number is not nearly as useful as a leakage VS frequency graph. When I put the LPS-1 on the tester it shows a flat line right at the absolute floor of the tester.

 

Alex has a policy of not showing measurements of his products VS named products of other companies so I will not say how that compares to other specific supplies. I can say that nothing else I measured comes close.

 

I don't have a good way right now to calibrate these graphs to come up exactly what those leakage currents are, but I CAN say the floor of the tester is about 500,000 times lower than the maximum leakage I measured, the LPS-1 is going to be less than that.

 

John S.

[austinpop]

39 minutes ago, JohnSwenson said:

 

I have built a power supply leakage tester, again a single number is not nearly as useful as a leakage VS frequency graph. When I put the LPS-1 on the tester it shows a flat line right at the absolute floor of the tester.

 

Alex has a policy of not showing measurements of his products VS named products of other companies so I will not say how that compares to other specific supplies. I can say that nothing else I measured comes close.

 

I don't have a good way right now to calibrate these graphs to come up exactly what those leakage currents are, but I CAN say the floor of the tester is about 500,000 times lower than the maximum leakage I measured, the LPS-1 is going to be less than that.

 

John S.

 

Thanks for the additional details.

[Bamber]

A quick update on my findings SOtM sPS-500 v UpTone LPS-1.  I was running 2 x LPS-1s in series  to supply 12v for my comparisons which I always knew was a compromise for the LPS-1s.  The sPS-500 was a clear winner in this test.  I currently own 3 x LPS-1s and have another in the ISO Regen bundle which @austinpop is currently testing.

 

I now have the use of a 6.5-9v tX-USBultra with 50Ω master clock connector for a few weeks.  The one I own is 9v-12v with 75Ω master clock connector.

 

Todays test system was:  mRendu (powered by a LPS-1 7v) > Mutec REF 10 (50ohm connection) > tX-USBultra (7v) > Chord Hugo 2 > Bryston BP6 > 4x Bryston 7B³s > B&W 800d3s (bi-amped).

 

A Zero Zone 12v 6A linear power supply is energizing both LPS-1s,  short Canare 4S8 Star Quad DC cables with Qyaide plugs were used except for the SOtM standard 30cm DC cable.

 

I used the following track for testing ( TCHAIKOVSKY / KORNGOLD Concerto for Violin and Orchestra in D major, op. 35, Finale. Allegro assai vivace (Mutter/LSO).  I have run this test for over an hour now, alternating between the 2 PSs.

 

The UpTone LPS-1 is better than the sPS-500 running the 7v tX-USBultra.  The  tX-USBultra is supposed to sound better running at 9v, I think a filter stage is disabled when running at 7v.

 

Like @austinpop reported the LPS-1 is hot when powering the tX-USBultra 7v.  This doesn't happen when using 2 in series to provide 12v.

[auricgoldfinger]

Here's something for people to obsess about. 

 

Platinum Starlight is Wireworld's top-of-the-line ethernet cable. Patent-pending, triple-shielded Tite-Shield design technology is the same as Starlight, only this cable features OCC-7N Solid Silver conductors, the highest grade, most conductive metal in the world. Fast and flawless 40 Gbit/sec @ 30 meters provides  maximum fidelity.

http://www.wireworldcable.com/hi-res-digital-audio-cables.html#ethernet

[Johnseye]

21 minutes ago, auricgoldfinger said:

Here's something for people to obsess about. 

 

Platinum Starlight is Wireworld's top-of-the-line ethernet cable. Patent-pending, triple-shielded Tite-Shield design technology is the same as Starlight, only this cable features OCC-7N Solid Silver conductors, the highest grade, most conductive metal in the world. Fast and flawless 40 Gbit/sec @ 30 meters provides  maximum fidelity.

http://www.wireworldcable.com/hi-res-digital-audio-cables.html#ethernet

 

Not at that price point.  For me personally, that money could be better invested elsewhere.

[auricgoldfinger]

24 minutes ago, Johnseye said:

 

Not at that price point.  For me personally, that money could be better invested elsewhere.

 

I could make a rather long list of better ways to spend that kind of money. 

[austinpop]

18 hours ago, Bamber said:

The UpTone LPS-1 is better than the sPS-500 running the 7v tX-USBultra.  The  tX-USBultra is supposed to sound better running at 9v, I think a filter stage is disabled when running at 7v.

 

If that second sentence holds, then it would be interesting to see what kind of SQ difference exists between powering your tX-USBultra with:

1. LPS-1 (set to 7V)
2. sPS-500 (set to 7V)
3. sPS-500 (set to 9V)

So you found 1 > 2. Does that mean:

• Is 3 > 2?
• Is 1 still > 3?

Inquiring minds and all that!

[austinpop]

On 8/13/2017 at 7:45 PM, austinpop said:

My dilemma right now is that I am really concerned that my tX-USBultra driving my Codex is at the very edge of the LPS-1's capacity. It runs blazing hot, yet the LED stays green. I also had a failure in the LPS-1 that was driving it, which @Superdad of course replaced in exemplary time. Now - this could have just been a random failure - so please do not read too much into this.

 

@JohnSwenson

 

Do you have any thoughts regarding running the LPS-1 at "the edge," as I described above? Does this shorten the lifetime of the LPS-1?

[Bamber]

38 minutes ago, austinpop said:

• Is 3 > 2?
• Is 1 still > 3?

I only have this 6.5-9v tX-USBultra as I ordered another 12v version and the dealer sent this by mistake.

 

I may only have it for a few more days so will be testing the above tonight.

 

 

[austinpop]

4 minutes ago, Bamber said:

I only have this 7v tX-USBultra as I ordered another 12v version and the dealer sent this by mistake.

 

I may only have it for a few more days so will be testing the above tonight.

 

Thanks! Fortunate for test purposes, then.

[austinpop]

BTW - for those of you with the SMB clock connectors on your SOtM Ultra gear, what SMB cables are you using? I'm thinking of these 6" (15cm) cables:

 

https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/cinch-connectivity-solutions-johnson/415-0003-006/J1206-ND/456993

 

Context: I'm sending in my hardwired trifecta in a few weeks, to be refitted with SMB connectors, and a master clock input.

[Bamber]

I don't if my dealer is reading this because I just received an email within seconds to say they have arranged a courier for Friday to exchange the items

[austinpop]

1 minute ago, Bamber said:

I don't if my dealer is reading because I just received an email within seconds to say they have arranged a courier for Friday to exchange the items

 

We'll still have tonight!

 

Eww sorry, that came out wrong. 

[Bamber]

13 minutes ago, austinpop said:

BTW - for those of you with the SMB clock connectors on your SOtM Ultra gear, what SMB cables are you using? I'm thinking of these 6" (15cm) cables:

I haven't ordered any yet until my items come back from SOtM.