A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming

[xiddox]

7 hours ago, tboooe said:

This won't work because the urendu needs a DHCP server to assign it an IP address.  Some people have had success installing and running a DHCP server program on Windows, not sure about Server though.  Another trick that may work is connect your urendu into your switch it router so that it gets an IP address.  Without powering it off, switch the connection to your bridged network card.  Kind of hokey but it works for some people.  Btw, bridging won't work in Server core mode.

 

Thanks, but you misread my post, and I am well aware of the DHCP issue. The uRendu already has an IP address and from its perspective nothing has changed. The only thing that has changed is the PC adapter.

 

Are you successfully using bridging under Windows with hqplayer running on the PC to a uRendu?

[TopQuark]

46 minutes ago, austinpop said:

I'd refer you back to Roy's first posts describing the direct connection. The "direct" comes from bridging the server, so the endpoint is isolated from the router, rather than connected to the same switch.

 

If the endpoint is isolated from the router, the more relevant term for this is "subnetting", i.e. the LAN ip is from a totally different subnet than server/endpoint ip.

 

46 minutes ago, austinpop said:

Adding the modded switch between the server and the endpoint still maintains that isolation from the router. The modded switch in this path, due to its clock mods, linear regulators, clean LPS (I use the LPS-1) is really acting as an Ethernet reclocker.

 

I wonder how much more critical is having the server (NUC, Windows, Roon Server, ROCK, etc.) have clean power if the modded switch already does this function.  It looks to me the buck stops here.

[AmusedToD]

2 minutes ago, TopQuark said:

 

I wonder how much more critical is having the server (NUC, Windows, Roon Server, ROCK, etc.) have clean power if the modded switch already does this function.  It looks to me the buck stops here.

 

My thoughts exactly! I asked the same question over at the Room community forum and they told me that's "snake oil" and that I should seek advice on snake oil matters here on this forum

 

Anyways, my idea was to build a ROCK server (Intel NUC i7), power it with a fine linear PSU and then establish a direct ethernet connection to my sms200Ultra. But that's a $1000 ball game, and I really can't stretch that far without knowing at least what to expect in terms of sonic improvements (if any). 

 

I know it would make sense if such ROCK machine was connected directly to a DAC via USB (clean power, clean Roon OS, etc.), but having in mind we are running galvanicaly isolated ethernet connections to "clean" streamers here, I am not sure it would make a dramatic effect.

[TopQuark]

5 hours ago, Bamber said:

I pre-ordered a SMS-200 Ultra without the master clock.   I would need to pay another £200 ($257.90) to add the MC.

 

It would have been a lot cheaper for me to purchase a new SMS-200 and pay the $900 to upgrade to the Ultra with master clock.

 

Their crazy pricing has put me off buying the other items I had planned to complete the Romaz chain.  I could have easily spent another £4K or £5K on their products including the MC when it is released. 

 

This is a good point. I just ordered the sMS-200ultra also without the MC activated. That just put a barrier in me adding an external clock in the future.  SOtM should have dropped the standard 10 Mhz MC for free to their sMS-200ultra pricing.  They can make it up through the upcoming master clock upgrade in the future.

[lmitche]

Last weekend I described my two Galvanically isolated USB chains with USB3 and the Adnaco, HDD and nic connection on one end and the USB 2 chain with the ISO Regen and dac on the other. Several of you were curious to know if a JCAT card would sound better then the stock motherboard USB connection used here.

 

Happily Sat8 was kind enough to send his original JCAT USB card to me for testing. I spent a morning working through power combinations with the JCAT card and ISO Regen.  My ISO Regen is powered by one lps-1, and with my second lps-1 connected to the JCAT card, there were dropout issues. I couldn't get the system to play long enough to hear a single track.  Frustrated I powered the JCAT from the PC ATX smps via the LP4 connection. This was stable, but SQ suffered compared to the motherboard USB connection.

 

After a frustrating morning, I moved the ISO Regen back to the motherboard port and sound quality was restored.

 

Many thanks to Sat8 for the opportunity to evaluate the JCAT card in my system.

[TopQuark]

1 hour ago, AmusedToD said:

Anyways, my idea was to build a ROCK server (Intel NUC i7), power it with a fine linear PSU and then establish a direct ethernet connection to my sms200Ultra. But that's a $1000 ball game, and I really can't stretch that far without knowing at least what to expect in terms of sonic improvements (if any).

 

Since the sMS-200ultra has better clocks, theoretically it should sound better.  Those coming from sMS-200 and upgraded to sMS-200ultra already experienced this.

 

1 hour ago, AmusedToD said:

I know it would make sense if such ROCK machine was connected directly to a DAC via USB (clean power, clean Roon OS, etc.), but having in mind we are running galvanicaly isolated ethernet connections to "clean" streamers here, I am not sure it would make a dramatic effect.

 

This depends on your overall system - how resolving your DAC is, speakers or headphones, cables, and LAN setup.  A dedicated streamer usually is designed to have better regulators and noise reduction features unlike in a NUC.  Other than galvanic isolation, a streamer also can isolate packets not necessary for music streaming like Roon album data and everything else that goes with it.  So for purist standpoint, this is the way to go.

 

Another option is to add the tX-USBexp PCIe to the NUC for noise reduction and better regulators and eliminate the streamer, but I am not sure if this is possible with the NUC.

[kennyb123]

4 hours ago, AmusedToD said:

I couldn't agree more. Direct ethernet connection between my PC and sms200 resulted in immediate and very noticable sonic improvements. That's why I am not rushing to get the modded switch. 

 

That was my thinking initially.  Even when I scored a used Paul Pang modified switch, I was skeptical that there's be a benefit when inserted in the direct path between microRendu and Mac Mini in bridged configuration.  But to my surprise there were subtle but meaningful improvements.  I expect the SOtM-modified switch would be even better.

[ElviaCaprice]

4 hours ago, lmitche said:

Last weekend I described my two Galvanically isolated USB chains with USB3 and the Adnaco, HDD and nic connection on one end and the USB 2 chain with the ISO Regen and dac on the other. Several of you were curious to know if a JCAT card would sound better then the stock motherboard USB connection used here.

 

Happily Sat8 was kind enough to send his original JCAT USB card to me for testing. I spent a morning working through power combinations with the JCAT card and ISO Regen.  My ISO Regen is powered by one lps-1, and with my second lps-1 connected to the JCAT card, there were dropout issues. I couldn't get the system to play long enough to hear a single track.  Frustrated I powered the JCAT from the PC ATX smps via the LP4 connection. This was stable, but SQ suffered compared to the motherboard USB connection.

 

After a frustrating morning, I moved the ISO Regen back to the motherboard port and sound quality was restored.

 

Many thanks to Sat8 for the opportunity to evaluate the JCAT card in my system.

Hi Larry,

Not just JCAT, but any audiophile USB pcie card.  I can't make any sense of your attempt here, other than you used an old JCAT card with an outdated driver?  How could it sound worse?

[tedwoods]

First off, major props to @romaz , @austinpop and the many contributors here is in order.

Thank you guys for your relentless efforts: the direct connection, especially with switch re-clocking is indisputably better sounding.

To my mind, only one thing remains, that desperately needs to be addressed by audio manufacturers:

The introduction of a stand alone audio ethernet re-clocker with built in filtering!

[lmitche]

8 hours ago, ElviaCaprice said:

Hi Larry,

Not just JCAT, but any audiophile USB pcie card.  I can't make any sense of your attempt here, other than you used an old JCAT card with an outdated driver?  How could it sound worse?

I agree, it's strange. BTW it was a fresh download of the driver.  Yet another CA mystery!

[Forehaven]

15 hours ago, tboooe said:

Some people, me included feel that bypassing the switch and having a direct connection to the NAA results in a cleaner sound.

 

15 hours ago, ted_b said:

Chris

bridging Ethernet connections is the original subject of this now-massively-diverse knowledge thread. It allows one to connect directly to ones renderer rather than go through a switch

 

I see guys.  Can this be done using two Melco fiber cards?  My PC is downstairs in the basement...so how are you guys doing this long distance by sticking with USB?  

 

And Ted, I'm assuming you've not got yours working yet?

 

Thanks all.

[tboooe]

13 minutes ago, Forehaven said:

I see guys.  Can this be done using two Melco fiber cards?  My PC is downstairs in the basement...so how are you guys doing this long distance by sticking with USB?  

Yes you can use a any fiber NIC.  In my HQP pc I use a dual port Intel x520-DA2 NIC.  I also have a fiber switch and 1 FMC right before my NAA mini pc.

 

My NAA is right next to my DAC so distance is not an issue.

[greenleo]

4 hours ago, tedwoods said:

First off, major props to @romaz , @austinpop and the many contributors here is in order.

Thank you guys for your relentless efforts: the direct connection, especially with switch re-clocking is indisputably better sounding.

To my mind, only one thing remains, that desperately needs to be addressed by audio manufacturers:

The introduction of a stand alone audio ethernet re-clocker with built in filtering!

JCAT mentioned that they're going to introduce one.  But no sign yet.

[lmitche]

1 hour ago, greenleo said:

JCAT mentioned that they're going to introduce one.  But no sign yet.

Isn't the reclocked switch from SOTM one of these?  Kinda like a REGEN for Ethernet?

[austinpop]

6 hours ago, tedwoods said:

First off, major props to @romaz , @austinpop and the many contributors here is in order.

Thank you guys for your relentless efforts: the direct connection, especially with switch re-clocking is indisputably better sounding.

To my mind, only one thing remains, that desperately needs to be addressed by audio manufacturers:

The introduction of a stand alone audio ethernet re-clocker with built in filtering!

 

1 hour ago, greenleo said:

JCAT mentioned that they're going to introduce one.  But no sign yet.

 

2 minutes ago, lmitche said:

Isn't the reclocked switch from SOTM one of these?  Kinda like a REGEN for Ethernet?

 

Having personally experienced the improvement wrought by this Ethernet regeneration, the next question is, indeed, where do manufacturers go from here?

 

@JohnSwenson, who is consistently honest and candid in these forums, has stated that this is an area he is interested in, and the science of what we're hearing is not well understood. I hope I paraphrased his views correctly.

 

Even if the science behind these improvements on the Ethernet is not yet baked, several questions arise going forward:

1. what makes the SOtM sCLK-EX so special, as to surpass previous reclocked TCXO/OCXO switch offerings like the Pang, the AQvox, etc, that Roy had heard?
2. how will SOtM modularize their offering? Right now, they have a single clock board - sCLK-EX - with 4 taps that they distribute both internally and externally. This approach is inherently limited by the length of the clock wire. What would make sense is to figure out a way to embed a fit-for-purpose sCLK-EX in each component. The current Ultra approach is wasteful and expensive - i.e. embed a full-size sCLK-EX board in each Ultra component.
3. how will other manufacturers respond? And will we see new designs that compete with, and even exceed the SOtM solution, at equal or lower prices? As consumers, I sure hope so!

As I often like to say - it's an exciting time to be a computer audiophile!

[tedwoods]

1 hour ago, greenleo said:

JCAT mentioned that they're going to introduce one.  But no sign yet.

 

16 minutes ago, lmitche said:

Isn't the reclocked switch from SOTM one of these?  Kinda like a REGEN for Ethernet?

I saw only a "modified" switch on the JCAT site -with decent pricing too- and was also considering the SOTM mod at some point.

I was just hoping for a product that wasn't a modded version of a standard switch but rather something original, designed from the ground up as an "audiophile thoroughbred" of sorts, that also included filtering/isolation technology at the input and a dedicated endpoint output, so as to simplify things.

[tedwoods]

13 minutes ago, austinpop said:

 

 

 

Having personally experienced the improvement wrought by this Ethernet regeneration, the next question is, indeed, where do manufacturers go from here?

 

@JohnSwenson, who is consistently honest and candid in these forums, has stated that this is an area he is interested in, and the science of what we're hearing is not well understood. I hope I paraphrased his views correctly.

 

Even if the science behind these improvements on the Ethernet is not yet baked, several questions arise going forward:

1. what makes the SOtM sCLK-EX so special, as to surpass previous reclocked TCXO/OCXO switch offerings like the Pang, the AQvox, etc, that Roy had heard?
2. how will SOtM modularize their offering? Right now, they have a single clock board - sCLK-EX - with 4 taps that they distribute both internally and externally. This approach is inherently limited by the length of the clock wire. What would make sense is to figure out a way to embed a fit-for-purpose sCLK-EX in each component. The current Ultra approach is wasteful and expensive - i.e. embed a full-size sCLK-EX board in each Ultra component.
3. how will other manufacturers respond? And will we see new designs that compete with, and even exceed the SOtM solution, at equal or lower prices? As consumers, I sure hope so!

As I often like to say - it's an exciting time to be a computer audiophile!

I couldn't agree more!

[rickca]

52 minutes ago, austinpop said:

what makes the SOtM sCLK-EX so special

I thought your entire post was right on, but you could have stopped right there.  We still don't know.

[lmitche]

30 minutes ago, rickca said:

I thought your entire post was right on, but you could have stopped right there.  We still don't know.

Isn't it the fact that the four clocks on the SOTM clock board share the same reference?

[austinpop]

15 minutes ago, lmitche said:

Isn't it the fact that the four clocks on the SOTM clock board share the same reference?

 

Yes they do.

 

[lmitche]

10 minutes ago, austinpop said:

 

Yes they do.

 

Well there you go!  That must be the improvement over individual clocks as all components move to the beat of a single drum.

[Johnseye]

5 minutes ago, lmitche said:

Well there you go!  That must be the improvement over individual clocks as all components move to the beat of a single drum.

 

Be careful.  What you described is a master clock and would not be the improvement as we know it today.  Rajiv explained this well a few posts ago.  The difference is that the clock of multiple components are replaced by the clock on the sclk-ex board.  It happens that these clocks are superior to the device's original and that they are all located on the same sclk-ex board.

[rickca]

1 hour ago, rickca said:

I thought your entire post was right on, but you could have stopped right there.  We still don't know.

What I meant was that we know very little about the technical performance of sCLK-EX and how it compares to clocks like the Crystek 575.  

 

We don't really know whether the reason the SOtM switch mod sounds so good in conjunction with the sMS-200Ultra is because the clocks share an internal reference clock.  It sounds plausible, but I don't have the background to evaluate that explanation.  Recall that @romaz said SOtM was surprised to hear his feedback on how much the switch mod contributed to sound quality.

[austinpop]

23 hours ago, Bamber said:

I could purchase a ISO-Regen with LPS-1 bundle and have it delivered to your address if Superdad allows that.

 

I could transfer enough funds to you to cover shipping to me in UK once you are finished testing.  That way you could keep it for 3 or 4 weeks.

 

I gather Alex has blessed this enterprise, and an order has been suitably placed in the system. Since the ISO-R's are sold out until July, now we hurry up and wait.

 

But all that aside, many thanks to @Bamber for his generous loan. I hope to make the best of it and am eager to report my findings here.

[rickca]

4 minutes ago, austinpop said:

But all that aside, many thanks to @Bamber for his generous loan.

Thanks to both @austinpop and @Bamber.