A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming

Johnseye · May 19, 2017

1 minute ago, AmusedToD said:

The sms200ultra gives you the same benefit of reclocking external devices (2 devices max), as I posted above. Confirmed by SOTM. But you get away with only one expensive linear PSU, and you get a single box solution.

So no other differences between the standard and ultra 200 besides the clocks?

Please clarify. I can use the sms200 ultra has 2 extra clocks and SOtM will modify other devices using it? Sorry I missed the full impact of that in your previous post.

AmusedToD · May 19, 2017

2 minutes ago, tims said:

Did you discuss how much extra it would cost to get the sms200Ultra modded to support up to two external devices?

I didn't discuss the financial part with them, but it's probably around $200 as previously reported by the members that already did the mods. Mr. Lee said they would need some 4-5 days to complete the mods, but info about the specific devices (routers/switches) to be modded should be sent to SOTM prior to shipping. Perhaps it's easier for them to take a switch of their choice, so you just send them your Ultra and receive the modded Ultra and the modded switch back.

AmusedToD · May 19, 2017

5 minutes ago, Johnseye said:

So no other differences between the standard and ultra 200 besides the clocks?

Please clarify. I can use the sms200 ultra has 2 extra clocks and SOtM will modify other devices using it? Sorry I missed the full impact of that in your previous post.

No other differences apart from the superior clocks in the sms200ultra and the slightly longer case (all black).

guerph · May 19, 2017

We this bloody well just made me question my tx-USBultra order. Can anyone explain the benefit of sticking with a sMS-200 and tx-USBultra setup? May said they are planning an upgrade path to the sMS-200ultra for folks with the sMS-200. I had thought maybe it'd be convienient to have the two USB outputs on the tx-USBultra, but sounds like they are recommending you use one or the other.

AmusedToD · May 19, 2017

21 minutes ago, guerph said:

We this bloody well just made me question my tx-USBultra order.

Well, I think it's a good choice if you have the required linear PSU's for the txUSBUltra and intend to use its clocks with other devices as well. Mr. Lee said that sms200 plus txUSBUltra combo benefits from double filtration, because the txUSBUltra receives relatively clean signal for reclocking in such scenario.

From my point of view, the cost of an additional PSU for the txUSBUltra and a good USB cable between the sms200 and the txUSBUltra is too much and I don't think the difference in SQ would be worth the $700 in price difference, but it will most certainly be better sounding. By how much - I can't say, neither could Mr. Lee as he didn't do a comparative test, but the logic implies it should sound better than just the sms200Ultra. If you have the cash, then I say - go for it.

TopQuark · May 19, 2017

1 hour ago, AmusedToD said:

The good thing is that the superior clock that can be found in the txUSBultra is also used in the sms200Ultra, and the sms200Ultra can be modified in a way to support up to 2 external devices (for example a switch and a router). So one can send his/her sms200Ultra and his router/switch to SOTM for them to make the mods.

So the 4 clocks that are in tX-USBultra today are in also in sMS-200Ultra?

TopQuark · May 19, 2017

39 minutes ago, guerph said:

May said they are planning an upgrade path to the sMS-200ultra for folks with the sMS-200.

This is great. I can't wait to hear more and when. I hope this happens right after Munich.

guerph · May 19, 2017

1 minute ago, TopQuark said:

This is great. I can't wait to hear more and when. I hope this happens right after Munich.

From May,

Actually we are planning to run the promotion event to update the sMS-200 to the sMS-200ultra for whom owns the sMS-200 currently. The final plan hasn’t been completed yet, but it would be like that SOtM would compensate some amount of money if you buy the sMS-200ultra and your sMS-200 should be shipped to us.
I will post and update the news once we confirm the plan, it would be available after Munich show I think.

AmusedToD · May 19, 2017

9 minutes ago, TopQuark said:

So the 4 clocks that are in tX-USBultra today are in also in sMS-200Ultra?

Yes, but 2 of them are already used by the streamer part of the device and 2 can be used for external devices.

Johnseye · May 19, 2017

45 minutes ago, guerph said:

We this bloody well just made me question my tx-USBultra order.

2 minutes ago, TopQuark said:

This is great. I can't wait to hear more and when. I hope this happens right after Munich.

She mentioned this was a consideration when I asked a couple months ago, but I hadn't heard anything since. This is good news. Hopefully it's an upgrade path that includes an extra clock or two.

AmusedToD · May 19, 2017

2 minutes ago, guerph said:

From May,

Actually we are planning to run the promotion event to update the sMS-200 to the sMS-200ultra for whom owns the sMS-200 currently. The final plan hasn’t been completed yet, but it would be like that SOtM would compensate some amount of money if you buy the sMS-200ultra and your sMS-200 should be shipped to us.
I will post and update the news once we confirm the plan, it would be available after Munich show I think.

Perfect, in that case I won't need to sell my SMS-200 (I just bought the sms200Ultra and now have both), I should just send it over to SOTM and receive a cashback of some sort, right? But the question is - what is the amount of the cashback?

TopQuark · May 19, 2017

38 minutes ago, AmusedToD said:

Perfect, in that case I won't need to sell my SMS-200 (I just bought the sms200Ultra and now have both), I should just send it over to SOTM and receive a cashback of some sort, right? But the question is - what is the amount of the cashback?

...and should also happen soon before the 10% off expires.

It would be nice if SOtM ships a package that includes the switch mod with switch sourced by them and sMS-200Ultra with all the clock cables in between.

SOtM, May?, your turn...

guerph · May 19, 2017

Can someone help explain the clock situation? I haven't had time to read through the whole thread. Are there redundant clocks built into the tx-USBultra?? Please dumb it down for me if possible

Johnseye · May 19, 2017

36 minutes ago, guerph said:

Can someone help explain the clock situation? I haven't had time to read through the whole thread. Are there redundant clocks built into the tx-USBultra?? Please dumb it down for me if possible

The board in the tx, which can also be bought separately, is the sCLK-EX. This has 4 clocks. 1 is used for the tx, leaving 3 for other uses. Cables are run from the tx (sCLK-EX) to other devices. How this works exactly I don't know.

I guess it's cheaper for them to use the sCLK-EX with 4 clocks than design a 1 clock board. Or a 2 clock board for the SMS ultra. Maybe there's more to it than just the clock. Maybe there's something to connecting them in a master slave config. Lots of unknowns.

austinpop · May 20, 2017

38 minutes ago, guerph said:

Can someone help explain the clock situation? I haven't had time to read through the whole thread. Are there redundant clocks built into the tx-USBultra?? Please dumb it down for me if possible

Let me try to net this out.

A while ago, SOtM created a clock board, the sCLK-EX, with up to 4 clock outputs (taps), that could be fed to other boards, or external devices. Someone alerted @romaz about the excellent sonics of this clock. I'll let Roy tell the story if he wants, but the net net was that Roy had SOtM create a custom solution for him, comprising the pre-existing dX-USB HD box, modded to house the sCLK-EX board. This was before any official Ultra boxes existed. This "proto dX-USB HD Ultra" consumed one of the 4 taps of the sCLK-EX. The other 3 taps were then sent, using hardwired U.FL cables, to:

a modded sMS-200 (consumes 2 taps)
a modded Ethernet switch (consumes 1 tap)

I encourage you to go back up thread and find his listening impressions.

This is the configuration that Roy reported on, and which inspired me to try to replicate his SQ improvements.

By this time, SOtM had revealed their Ultra product roadmap, which comprised 3 distinct devices, each packaging the sCLK-EX board:

sMS-200ultra
tX-USBultra
dX-USB HD Ultra

I had SOtM create the following solution for me:

I reported on my findings in several posts up-thread:

We both found maximum SQ benefit by using up all 4 of these clock taps. Roy once called these taps "audio gold," and he wasn't kidding!

However, there are price considerations. Each device (swtich, sMS-200, tX-USB) requires a decent PSU, cables etc, so there is a cost to each step. The reason this is somewhat complicated is because the sCLK-EX board can live at different points in the chain, depending on which Ultra box you buy.

From a bang-per-buck perspective, I would recommend in this order:

sMS-200Ultra. This is the simplest and cleanest options, and gives you a big SQ boost.
Next, I'd add the switch, modded to accept an additional sCLK-EX tap from the the Ultra. Either send them one, or have them source it.
Finally, the full trifecta, by adding in the tX-USBultra. For this option, I am not sure if you can source a tX-USB HD (regular) and have SOtM mod it to accept the sCLK-EX from the sMS-200Ultra. Remember, I went the opposite route:
- Start with the tX-USBultra
- Mod the sMS-200
- Mod the switch
BTW - others may choose a more expensive but less-fiddly approach by just buying the sMS-200ultra AND the tX-USBultra. Just know that in our experience, we found the modded switch had a profound impact too, which you would be foregoing.

One other thing to consider is shipping cost. If you do this piecemeal, then the shipping of boxes to and back from Korea (at least from the US) can exceed $100 round trip. So if at all possible, I do recommend doing the trifecta in one shot, if it fits your budget.

Or you could just wait and see how this shakes out. Frankly, I think SOtM themselves are a bit surprised by our findings, especially with the modded switch.

From what May has told me, I would not be surprised to see a more modular solution soon from SOtM, where the sCLK-EX is marketed as a standalone master clock, and they sell sMS, tX, and switches to accept a master clock input.

Hopefully we'll learn more from @romaz and others who are in Munich and have a chance to talk directly with May and Lee.

romaz · May 20, 2017

I can only post briefly for now. I will answer other questions later.

I had a nice discussion with Lee of SOtM yesterday. He's the head engineer and president of the company. Great guy, by way. Enjoyed my time with May also and SOtM is lucky to have someone like her. I had assumed SOtM is a large company but the whole company consists of only 6 people.

sCLK-EX essentially uses an internal master clock by which the 4 clocks derive their timing and so all 4 clocks are synchronized. He believes strongly that this clock can be improved upon by a good external 10MHz master clock such as one from Esoteric or dCS. SOtM plans to build their own external master clock in the near future. As previously mentioned, an external clock means more wires and the need for another good PSU.

In Lee's opinion, the sMS-200Ultra will sound best at 12V. I would presume this applies to the tX also. This has nothing to do with these devices being "understarved" at lower voltages as has been suggested. These devices consume the same power regardless of voltage. That means whether they use 6V or 12V, the number of watts consumed is the same. The benefit of higher voltage is less current draw. As stated many times on this thread, the less current a component draws, generally it means less noise in the ground plane. If a component consumes 12 watts, at 12V, that equates to 1A of draw, whereas at 6V, that equates to 2A of draw. The downside of higher voltage can be greater heat generation and so a manufacturer has to balance these traits.

An sMS-200ultra will sound slightly better than a standard sMS-200 that has been modified to become an sMS-200ultra purely because longer clock cables have to be used. No other reason and the difference shouldn't be great. No word yet on the rebate to upgrade from standard to Ultra but it is essentially a trade in is my understanding.

SOtM doesn't yet know the sonic impact of the SMB connectors but they feel this is a better way to go. This also means that you can now get beyond a 40cm clock cable and extend up to 1M but the longer this length, the greater the deterioration in SQ.

If 2 components have identical clock requirements (ie frequency and current draw) such as with 2 NIC cards or 2 switches, then one clock from the sCLK-EX can be used to clock both components with no detriment to SQ. This means potentially, a single sCLK-EX can clock more than 4 items.

Lee feels strongly that optical is a bad idea. Lots of jitter. I thought this applied mainly to things like an Intona and not as much with optical but according to Lee, he has been looking at this for the past 5 years and can't get around the fact that even optical results in considerable jitter leading to a more "closed" sound which is why he has intentionally avoided this type of GI and so his advice is to stick with passive isolation. I have to agree that when I tested the Adnaco, as I previously posted, it did nothing to open up the soundstage, and while replacing 2 clocks in the transceiver could make up for the high jitter produced, the optical connection will potentially undo all the good done by any previous clocking efforts meaning that my efforts to reclock my motherboard, NIC card, router, etc, will be seriously impacted. As such, I have decided to use my Adnaco as a hub for music storage where it made a remarkable difference. I will still plan to change the clock in the PCIe card to address jitter caused to the music stream as it passes through optical but I will no longer plan to change the two clocks in the outboard USB transceiver since the impact of those two clocks will essentially be compromised as the signal goes through the optical. This means I will also be abandoning my fiber NIC and FMCs since this would negate the benefits of changing the 2 clocks in my router. Huge change of plans. Ugghh.

I asked both May and Lee which would sound better: SOtM USB card with sCLK-EX + tX-USBultra vs sMS-200 modded to Ultra status + tX-USBultra? Neither are sure as they haven't done this testing. My guess is an sMS-200ultra + tX-USBultra would have the greater potential with the X-factors being the "direct connection" path, the switch that you can throw in for very little money plus that fact that you have the option of using a pair of dCBL-CAT7s.

I had a nice chat with Phil Hobi of AO as well. Also a really nice guy. No promises but he believes he can bring back the service to allow LAN bridging in Windows Server 2016 in core mode. This is all that I needed to hear to stick with the Ethernet pathway.

More to follow...

pam1975 · May 20, 2017

thanks @romaz do you believe the sound quality improvement between the 12V version and the standard version for sMS-200 ultra would be significant or rather marginal?

It obviously has a direct impact on the PSU price at 12V...

romaz · May 20, 2017

4 minutes ago, pam1975 said:

thanks @romaz do you believe the sound quality improvement between the 12V version and the standard version for sMS-200 ultra would be significant or rather marginal?

It obviously has a direct impact on the PSU price at 12V...

Marginal.

ElviaCaprice · May 20, 2017

What about the finding of removing the regulator board on the sms-200 being noisy and by removing it and injecting 5V direct it improved SQ??

Also the X factors on the direct USB connection of Txusb card and tXUSB Ultra would be the two motherboard clocks modded for sCLK EX clocks, all tied in together. I'm going to focus on this route.

Good to hear from the horses mouth over there, great work Roy.

pam1975 · May 20, 2017

yes, thanks a lot Roy!

romaz · May 20, 2017

Just to clarify so that my intentions aren't misinterpreted, I don't think going the Adnaco route or fiber in general is a bad thing. My ears clearly tell me it's not...unless you plan to change clocks before your fiber because then, fiber may potentially seriously undo what you were intending to do with those clocks. If you have no intentions of changing motherboard clocks or if you are forced into using a noisy server because of a need to upsample, I think the Adnaco especially is a good option and part of me is till tempted to give it a go.

I did mean what I said when I said that the combination of Adnaco + tX Ultra was magical but like with all things, you sometimes don't know how something could possibly sound better until you that something better comes along and it nearly knocks you off of your chair. When I directly compared the tX Ultra against the sMS-200ultra via direct connection, all I could think of was how intoxicatingly more alive the music sounded because of the air around voices and around instruments. Once the switch was added to the sMS-200ultra, the difference was just too great to ignore and so I can only imagine how much more open things could sound if all the bad clocks were removed. For some, however, they may value the greater tonal weight that the Adnaco provides and the increased air that the tX Ultra brings after it could be more than enough. This really will come down to personal preference and there's no right or wrong.

romaz · May 20, 2017

13 minutes ago, ElviaCaprice said:

What about the finding of removing the regulator board on the sms-200 being noisy and by removing it and injecting 5V direct it improved SQ??

Also the X factors on the direct USB connection of Txusb card and tXUSB Ultra would be the two motherboard clocks modded for sCLK EX clocks, all tied in together. I'm going to focus on this route.

Good to hear from the horses mouth over there, great work Roy.

I'll ask Lee today but I have a feeling I know what he's going to say, that he hasn't tried it so he won't know. Regulators are obviously essential to tight voltage control. If they're not in a component, then they're in the PSU and so if you're going to go straight 5V, it's important that the 5V regulator in your PSU is better than the regulator in the SOtM unit that you want to replace. If someone is hearing an improvement, then that's probably the case.

Regardless, bear in mind that neither the sMS-200 or tX are purely 5V devices. They also contain 3.3V and 1.5V (or less) regulators and so if you're going to go to infinity and beyond, you would want to bypass all regulators and use a multi-rail PSU with superior regulators but at considerably greater cost. Assuming that Paul's regulators are superior, what might make more sense is to replace all of SOtMs regulators with Hynes regulators but as Paul has been sharing with me, it's not always easy to do it since his regulator designs have robust requirements.

amir57bs · May 20, 2017

4 hours ago, romaz said:

I asked both May and Lee which would sound better: SOtM USB card with sCLK-EX + tX-USBultra vs sMS-200 modded to Ultra status + tX-USBultra? Neither are sure as they haven't done this testing. My guess is an sMS-200ultra + tX-USBultra would have the greater potential with the X-factors being the "direct connection" path, the switch that you can throw in for very little money plus that fact that you have the option of using a pair of dCBL-CAT7s.

I recommend you to try purist audio anniversary usb cable . It is far better than curious/audioquest diamond/acoustic revive .I think it may change your idea about using sotm usb card vs sotm sms-200.

i guess the best way is pcie usb card plus good psu.

ElviaCaprice · May 20, 2017

12 minutes ago, amir57bs said:

I recommend you to try purist audio anniversary usb cable . It is far better than curious/audioquest diamond/acoustic revive .I think it may change your idea about using sotm usb card vs sotm sms-200.

i guess the best way is pcie usb card plus good psu.

Color the problem with a USB cable? That's just as bad as the highly expensive Ethernet cables. In my opinion, it's not a solution.

We have yet to hear an updated server mobo with clean power and clocks, may be yet a simple well sounding solution with tXBexpusb card and tXUSBultra, using all 4 clocks.

It's going to be tough to beat a renderer.

amir57bs · May 20, 2017

13 minutes ago, ElviaCaprice said:

Color the problem with a USB cable? That's just as bad as the highly expensive Ethernet cables. In my opinion, it's not a solution.

We have yet to hear an updated server mobo with clean power and clocks, may be yet a simple well sounding solution with tXBexpusb card and tXUSBultra, using all 4 clocks.

It's going to be tough to beat a renderer.

Usb cable in my idea is very very important .

overally if you like emotional sound (true tone plus good micro dynamic) i think combination of gordon rankin codes plus purist cable is very good.

i do not like ultra smooth and clean sound of many systems , i prefer emotional sound .

i think ethernet renderer may give you ultra clean ultra smooth ultra low noise sound but i prefer intimate sound of pcie usb card with AS gordon rankin codes.

the best way to get emotional sound is to keep the way minimal.

adding reclockers or ethernet devices like microrendu add complexity of streaming data transfer and it will degrade intimacy of sound.

A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming

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