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A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming


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Most important: please realize this thread is about bleeding edge experimentation and discovery. No one has The Answer™. If you are not into tweaking, just know that you can have a musically satisfying system without doing any of the nutty things we do here.

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Thanks, Roy, well that is disappointing to hear, concerning the Adnaco, but not surprising.  Glad your still going to follow thru with the mods/test.  Can only hope the mods transform the Adnaco into an equal compatriot to Ethernet/renderer.

(JRiver) Jetway barebones NUC (mod 3 sCLK-EX, Cybershaft OP 14)  (PH SR7) => mini pcie adapter to PCIe 1X => tXUSBexp PCIe card (mod sCLK-EX) (PH SR7) => (USPCB) Chord DAVE => Omega Super 8XRS/REL t5i  (All powered thru Topaz Isolation Transformer)

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Can you post a link to the switch you're talking about Romaz?

 

Thanks

Ryzen 7 2700 PC Server, NUC7CJYH w. 4G Apacer RAM as Renderer/LPS 1.2 - IsoRegen/LPS-1/.2 - Singxer SU-1/LPS1.2 - Holo Spring Level 3 DAC - LTA MicroZOTL MZ2 - Modwright KWA 150 Signature Amp - Tidal Audio Piano's.  

.

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3 hours ago, romaz said:

My dilemma now is whether to stay AOIP and go with switch > sMS-200Ultra > tX-USBultra as Rajiv has done or to take the gamble that a tX-USBultra combined with an Adnaco with better clocks and regulators can equal or perhaps beat this marvelous trifecta.  With the AOIP route, there would be no surprises as I have now heard it.  With the addition of a pair of dCBL-CAT7s, I know it would only get better.  SOtM has told me I could ship back my current combo and they would explant the sCLK-EX clock board from my dX-USB and transplant it into a tX and so I wouldn't have to start from scratch.  Well, I have decided to move forward with the Adnaco mod and compare.  If the Adnaco route fails to be better than the AOIP route, then I will use the Adnaco to connect my music storage drives.  I already know it excels in that capacity.

 

Hi Roy,

 

In these hyper-partisan times, it is good to see you taking a bipartisan, principled approach to this exploration, regardless of ideology! :) Whatever that means in Washington, DC, here on CA it means the exploration of clocking while being agnostic to the direct-USB approach vs the distributed networked endpoint approach.

 

I believe one of the reasons your explorations are so fascinating is that very few of us have the option, the inclination, and frankly, the funds to explore both approaches to the extent and with the scientific approach that you are. Kudos, bravo, and thank you!

 

I know I fall strongly in the networked endpoint camp, but you've inspired me to remain open-minded and very curious as to which approach you ultimately prefer.

 

One question in my mind is whether there is an ultimate "best of both worlds" approach that looks something like this:

 

591dc0c1a9fed_ScreenShot2017-05-18at10_41_09AM.thumb.png.438dec0ca55bfb36910f702072b17c05.png

 

Safe travels to Munich, and enjoy the show!

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@romaz

 

So if I'm using Schiit Yggy, do you think it's better for me to use the dX-USB Ultra or the tX-USB Ultra?  I know most people think that the AES input is the best, but I haven't really noticed a difference between the AES and the USB.  Also, would it be better to use a tX-USB Ultra and dX-USB Ultra with the Yggy?

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@romaz very interesting comparison.  Since I am USB chain committed if I read your post correctly you listened to each adnaco (unmodified) and tX-USB ultra separately with your  new DFI MB based server (also unmodified) and then you put both of them in the chain and reported "Combined, however, the result was this magical balance of all these qualities combined.  I listened for hours and couldn't stop listening.  No fatigue.  It was that good."  So I assume that chain was PC-Adnaco fibre- Fibre/USB box- USB to tX-ultra then USB to Dac. That is very encouraging for the USB folks.  To bad the Lan ports/OS wouldn't cooperate for a "bridged" connection to compare Ethernet chain vs almost pure USB chain.

 

Thank you again for taking the time and effort to compare both methods in search of the best sound possible.  All of us PC playback folks owe you a huge debt of gratitude.  Looking forward to further explorations with fully modified boards in the USB chain.

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34 minutes ago, limniscate said:

@romaz

 

So if I'm using Schiit Yggy, do you think it's better for me to use the dX-USB Ultra or the tX-USB Ultra?  I know most people think that the AES input is the best, but I haven't really noticed a difference between the AES and the USB.  Also, would it be better to use a tX-USB Ultra and dX-USB Ultra with the Yggy?

+1 - same question for me ;)

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So @austinpopand I should be able to test his SOtM Ultra stack versus the new Bryston BDP-3 since my dealer has it and will let me borrow it for a weekend.

 

I'm interested to hear how the stack compares to a dedicated streamer.  I know @romaz has tested a lot of other dedicated streamers such as the Antipodes and the Aurender N10.

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5 minutes ago, limniscate said:

So @austinpopand I should be able to test his SOtM Ultra stack versus the new Bryston BDP-3 since my dealer has it and will let me borrow it for a weekend.

 

I'm interested to hear how the stack compares to a dedicated streamer.  I know @romaz has tested a lot of other dedicated streamers such as the Antipodes and the Aurender N10.

That would be interesting, my guess is that the Bryston won't have a chance :)

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Question to those who have had their switch modded by SOTM.  Will they mod any switch?  I am thinking about having them upgrade my AC Wireless bridge I am using that includes a 4 port switch.

 

https://www.amazon.com/D-Link-Wireless-Gigabit-Extender-DAP-1650/dp/B00JFOP688?th=1

12TB NAS >> i7-6700 Server/Control PC >> i3-5015u NAA >> Singxer SU-1 DDC (modded) >> Holo Spring L3 DAC >> Accustic Arts Power 1 int amp >> Sonus Faber Guaneri Evolution speakers + REL T/5i sub (x2)

 

Other components:

UpTone Audio LPS1.2/IsoRegen, Fiber Switch and FMC, Windows Server 2016 OS, Audiophile Optimizer 3.0, Fidelizer Pro 6, HQ Player, Roonserver, PS Audio P3 AC regenerator, HDPlex 400W ATX & 200W Linear PSU, Light Harmonic Lightspeed Split USB cable, Synergistic Research Tungsten AC power cords, Tara Labs The One speaker cables, Tara Labs The Two Extended with HFX Station IC, Oyaide R1 outlets, Stillpoints Ultra Mini footers, Hi-Fi Tuning fuses, Vicoustic/RealTraps/GIK room treatments

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5 hours ago, romaz said:

 

My dilemma now is whether to stay AOIP and go with switch > sMS-200Ultra > tX-USBultra as Rajiv has done or to take the gamble that a tX-USBultra combined with an Adnaco with better clocks and regulators can equal or perhaps beat this marvelous trifecta. 

@romaz

I applaud your dedication and sharing your very interesting journey of discovery. Enjoy Munich and thanks. 

Patrick. 

Topaz 2.5Kva Isolation Transformer > EtherRegen switch powered by Paul Hynes SR4 LPS >MacBook Pro 2013 > EC Designs PowerDac SX > TNT UBYTE-2 Speaker cables > Omega Super Alnico Monitors > 2x Rel T Zero Subwoofers. 

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4 hours ago, tboooe said:

Question to those who have had their switch modded by SOTM.  Will they mod any switch?  I am thinking about having them upgrade my AC Wireless bridge I am using that includes a 4 port switch.

 

https://www.amazon.com/D-Link-Wireless-Gigabit-Extender-DAP-1650/dp/B00JFOP688?th=1

 

Tommy, the best would be to contact May and inquire. They're pretty open to doing mods, but the extent to which they would know ahead of time what's feasible just depends on whether they've had any prior experience with the unit.

 

I sent them a Zyxel GS108Bv3. I really wanted to use a 5-port, but had trouble sourcing it. I was alerted to this switch model by Roy as he recalled it was the baseline Paul Pang used to use. More recently, it looks like Pang and Aqvox are using D-Link DGS-2208 (?) switches, so those may be good to use too. 

 

My main criteria was also to pick a switch whose DC voltage requirements were in the right range and whose power needs were modest, so it could share power from an LPS-1 at 7V with the modded sMS-200.

 

Finally, if you are buying everything else new, it may be possible to ask SOtM to source the switch, so you don't have to ship them anything. I believe @limniscate was pursuing that with them.

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Here's what May had to say about the 12V versions:

 

Normally higher voltages bring better sound, but it is very different from how you set up and your preferred sound taste.

 

 

I'm a little torn as to the standard voltage v. the 12V for the dX and sMS.

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4 hours ago, limniscate said:

Here's what May had to say about the 12V versions:

 

Normally higher voltages bring better sound, but it is very different from how you set up and your preferred sound taste.

 

 

I'm a little torn as to the standard voltage v. the 12V for the dX and sMS.

 

the non ultra sms200 seems to have enjoyed improvements @ 12v..

 

personally i ordered the 11-13v of the sms200 ultra so that i can still use my sbooster :D

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On ‎5‎/‎16‎/‎2017 at 5:09 AM, Elberoth said:

Anyone tried getting rid of the regulator board from the sMS-200 ?

 

I just got this tip from another forum member:

 

If you want to get the most out of your SMS then open up the box remove the external regulator board and inject 5v straight onto the main board. Lord knows how sotm managed to produce such an awful reg board but if you use the sonore battery psu or Paul Hynes reg straight into main board the results are superb.

 

I'm gonna try this on my return from Munich High End show. I have just opened the sMS-200 up and it seems like a very easy mod to perform. 

 

The original regulator board uses a DC/DC converter (probably to accomodate a vide range of input voltages) and those tend to be very noisy. It makes zero sense to pass the power via this regulator, if you can set the LPS-1 to 5V and power the device directly.

 

 

39 minutes ago, semajm85 said:

 

the non ultra sms200 seems to have enjoyed improvements @ 12v..

 

personally i ordered the 11-13v of the sms200 ultra so that i can still use my sbooster :D

 

That may be but what would concern me is what Elberoth disclosed above.  I shall wait for further information from those attending Munich High End Show.

(JRiver) Jetway barebones NUC (mod 3 sCLK-EX, Cybershaft OP 14)  (PH SR7) => mini pcie adapter to PCIe 1X => tXUSBexp PCIe card (mod sCLK-EX) (PH SR7) => (USPCB) Chord DAVE => Omega Super 8XRS/REL t5i  (All powered thru Topaz Isolation Transformer)

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On 5/16/2017 at 6:09 AM, Elberoth said:

Anyone tried getting rid of the regulator board from the sMS-200 ?

 

I just got this tip from another forum member:

 

If you want to get the most out of your SMS then open up the box remove the external regulator board and inject 5v straight onto the main board. Lord knows how sotm managed to produce such an awful reg board but if you use the sonore battery psu or Paul Hynes reg straight into main board the results are superb.

 

I'm gonna try this on my return from Munich High End show. I have just opened the sMS-200 up and it seems like a very easy mod to perform. 

 

The original regulator board uses a DC/DC converter (probably to accomodate a vide range of input voltages) and those tend to be very noisy. It makes zero sense to pass the power via this regulator, if you can set the LPS-1 to 5V and power the device directly.

 

 

Would you please share how you did this, and the results when complete?  If you experienced an improvement I'd like to do it myself.  Thanks!

 

9 hours ago, limniscate said:

Here's what May had to say about the 12V versions:

 

Normally higher voltages bring better sound, but it is very different from how you set up and your preferred sound taste.

 

 

I'm a little torn as to the standard voltage v. the 12V for the dX and sMS.

 

This shows a conundrum.  We have been going after low powered devices to keep noise at a minimum by powering them with linear PSUs like the LPS-1 and SR7.  LPSUs that can accommodate more power have a higher price tag, almost to the point of being impractical for even the budgetless among us.  However 12v is not out of line and can be handled by a single rail in an SR7.  I wonder if we're targeting devices to be powered by the LPS-1 out of convenience or limited, easily available options.  Do we end up starving some devices of power, limiting their performance, in efforts to use certain devices or to keep power input levels low?

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On 5/14/2017 at 8:15 PM, Always.Learning said:

Rajiv--

 

It seems you are using a Y cable on the LPS-1 that is powering both the modded switch and the modded sMS-200. Can you tell us where you got the Y cable, how much it cost, and what other options, if any, you considered?

 

Thank you.

 

On 5/14/2017 at 8:23 PM, austinpop said:

 

Sure, happy to.

 

This is the Y-cable: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B007Q8IKRE, but I plan to make my own soon using Canare 4S6 as per the DIY cables thread. Just haven't had the time.

 

The other option I considered was to use separate LPS-1s for the switch and the sMS-200. However, upon searching all my cupboards and drawers, I came up one LPS-1 short. Further digging under my sofa cushions for spare change still left me about $393.25 short to buy another LPS-1.

 

:D

 

I was very tempted to go this route as I already have a 2 rail SR7 build in progress.  Adding a third rail would cause a delay and add cost.  So I asked Paul if he would make a splitter lead.  He said he could but, and I quote him here:

 

"I can build a splitter cable using Switchcraft DC 2.1mm plugs and sockets with fine silver wire. If you let me know the lead lengths for the Y cable sections I can work out a cost for you. However, for the best sound quality, I have to say that I would not recommend powering two items of equipment from one power supply as this will create a ground loop through the DC leads and the equipment interconnect. This will allow the ground return current from both items of equipment to mix and it will cause signal inter-modulation that is usually audible especially on a transparent system."

 

Based on that information I won't be pursuing the splitter option.  Maybe another LPS-1 or a third rail.

 

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6 minutes ago, Johnseye said:

 

 

I was very tempted to go this route as I already have a 2 rail SR7 build in progress.  Adding a third rail would cause a delay and add cost.  So I asked Paul if he would make a splitter lead.  He said he could but, and I quote him here:

 

"I can build a splitter cable using Switchcraft DC 2.1mm plugs and sockets with fine silver wire. If you let me know the lead lengths for the Y cable sections I can work out a cost for you. However, for the best sound quality, I have to say that I would not recommend powering two items of equipment from one power supply as this will create a ground loop through the DC leads and the equipment interconnect. This will allow the ground return current from both items of equipment to mix and it will cause signal inter-modulation that is usually audible especially on a transparent system."

 

Based on that information I won't be pursuing the splitter option.  Maybe another LPS-1 or a third rail.

 

 

I tend to agree. My solution with a splitter is a stop gap, until I figure out a longer term PSU strategy. Ultimately, my switch will be powered by a separate LPS-1.

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Just a quick report from Munich. I visited the SOTM stand as I previously agreed with May to buy the tx-USBUltra at the show and she kindly brought the 12V version as per my request (serial number 003). However, after a long discussion with Mr. Lee (the owner and chief engineer of SOTM), I decided to go with the SMS-200Ultra instead of  the sms200 + tx-USBUltra combo. The reason is of purely financial nature. Mr. Lee wasn't sure that sms200 + tx-USBUltra would sound that much better than the sms200Ultra, if at all (perhaps slightly, but not enough to warrant the price difference).

 

The math is simple:

 

sms200 (450USD) + good linear PSU (350USD) + tx-USBUltra (990USD) + good linear PSU (350USD) plus Curious link (120USD) = 2260 USD

 

sms200Ultra (1200USD) + good linear PSU (350USD) = 1550USD

 

So in my book it was rather simple - a saving of cca 700 USD which I invested in SOTM's LAN filter (350USD), and I still have additional 350USD left at my disposal to get a good linear PSU for my router.

 

My guess is that sms200Ultra along with SOTM's LAN filter and a better Ethernet cable will sound better than sms200 + txUSBultra without the LAN filter/cable.

 

The good thing is that the superior clock that can be found in the txUSBultra is also used in the sms200Ultra, and the sms200Ultra can be modified in a way to support up to 2 external devices (for example a switch and a router). So one can send his/her sms200Ultra and his router/switch to SOTM for them to make the mods.

 

The bottom line is - I will be selling my 1 month old sms200, so anyone interested can drop me an email.

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21 minutes ago, AmusedToD said:

Just a quick report from Munich. I visited the SOTM stand as I previously agreed with May to buy the tx-USBUltra at the show and she kindly brought the 12V version as per my request (serial number 003). However, after a long discussion with Mr. Lee (the owner and chief engineer of SOTM), I decided to go with the SMS-200Ultra instead of  the sms200 + tx-USBUltra combo. The reason is of purely financial nature. Mr. Lee wasn't sure that sms200 + tx-USBUltra would sound that much better than the sms200Ultra, if at all (perhaps slightly, but not enough to warrant the price difference).

 

The math is simple:

 

sms200 (450USD) + good linear PSU (350USD) + tx-USBUltra (990USD) + good linear PSU (350USD) plus Curious link (120USD) = 2260 USD

 

sms200Ultra (1200USD) + good linear PSU (350USD) = 1550USD

 

So in my book it was rather simple - a saving of cca 700 USD which I invested in SOTM's LAN filter (350USD), and I still have additional 350USD left at my disposal to get a good linear PSU for my router.

 

My guess is that sms200Ultra along with SOTM's LAN filter and a better Ethernet cable will sound better than sms200 + txUSBultra without the LAN cable.

 

The good thing is that the superior clock that can be found in the txUSBultra is also used in the sms200Ultra, and the sms200Ultra can be modified in a way to support up to 2 external devices (for example a switch and a router). So one can send his/her sms200Ultra and his router/switch to SOTM for them to make the mods.

 

The bottom line is - I will be selling my 1 month old sms200, so anyone interested can drop me an email.

 

The befeit of the tx-usb ultra is that it has 4 clocks, 3 of which can be used for other devices.  So not only are you getting the tx, but the sms-200 and a switch can get upgraded clocks.  If you don't care about the switch getting reclocked, and you can make your full $450 back then maybe that's the way to go.  Since you already have an sms-200...I dunno.  Did Mr. Lee explain what else is better about the ultra besides the clocks?

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9 minutes ago, Johnseye said:

 

The befeit of the tx-usb ultra is that it has 4 clocks, 3 of which can be used for other devices.  So not only are you getting the tx, but the sms-200 and a switch can get upgraded clocks.  If you don't care about the switch getting reclocked, and you can make your full $450 back then maybe that's the way to go.  Since you already have an sms-200...I dunno.  Did Mr. Lee explain what else is better about the ultra besides the clocks?

 

The sms200ultra gives you the same benefit of reclocking external devices (2 devices max), as I posted above. Confirmed by SOTM. But you get away with only one expensive linear PSU, and you get a single box solution.

 

Both the sms200Ultra and the txUSBUltra share the same chassis and the same clock, the difference is that the sms200Ultra has a built in streamer (the sms200) and that's why it's $1200, whereas the txUSBUltra doesn't have the steamer part so it's $210 cheaper. Everything else is identical.

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32 minutes ago, AmusedToD said:

..........................The good thing is that the superior clock that can be found in the txUSBultra is also used in the sms200Ultra, and the sms200Ultra can be modified in a way to support up to 2 external devices (for example a switch and a router). So one can send his/her sms200Ultra and his router/switch to SOTM for them to make the mods.........

Did you discuss how much extra it would cost to get the sms200Ultra modded to support up to two external devices?

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