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A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming

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45 minutes ago, ElviaCaprice said:

I wouldn't do that.  Of course we are waiting on real results with the ISO Regen, but you aren't going to need the GI on it with a great GI already on the 2Qute.  As far as upgrades, your really no different off than Romaz with his DAVE.  One can follow his footsteps with a 2Qute and enjoy significant improvements as he has with DAVE.

Myself, I'm going to stick with the USB route with my 2Qute, which is looking like this=> Mobo (EX clock)=>TXbexpusb 3.0 pcie card (EX clock)=>tX-USB ultra (all 4 EX clocks)=>2Qute (2 LPS-1's series). 

At this point I'm not sure what to use the 4th EX clock on, not that I have to.  I do have an ISO Regen on the way, 2nd batch, so I'll test that out.

 

Very exciting to see this! Yes, ultimately, it seems that the way to maximize is to use all 4 clocks immediately upstream of the DAC.

 

In the USB case, that's a good question, where to put that 4th clock. Doesn't SOtM have a tX-USBhub product? Could they modify that to accept an sCLK-EX? That could be your 4th clock, analogous to another tX-USBultra in series.

 

Just spitballing here.

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15 minutes ago, austinpop said:

 

Very exciting to see this! Yes, ultimately, it seems that the way to maximize is to use all 4 clocks immediately upstream of the DAC.

 

In the USB case, that's a good question, where to put that 4th clock. Doesn't SOtM have a tX-USBhub product? Could they modify that to accept an sCLK-EX? That could be your 4th clock, analogous to another tX-USBultra in series.

 

Just spitballing here.

Yes, but anything else added and then I have to get another LPS-1 for it.  The Pcie card and the tXusbultra are going to need all they can get from their own individual LPS-1.  I did look at sotm's hubs etc., but they all connect to the motherboard extra usb outputs, not from an external usb port.  I could also DIY a regen or even the ISO Regen, but again I would need another LPS-1. 

I think what I will do is add another clock 25Mhz for if I ever decide I want to change motherboards, then I'm covered on the main clock.  Right now I use a skylake mobo 24Mhz.

 

What did sotm charge you for changing clocks?

Edited by ElviaCaprice

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@austinpop and I are testing now.

 

So the sMS-200 Ultra to the Singxer SU-1 to Yggy via AES definitely worse than the sMS-200 Ultra directly to the Yggy via USB with Curious cable.

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12 minutes ago, limniscate said:

@austinpop and I just finished our testing and confirmed the results from his system.  My system is as follows:

 

-Windows 10 Creator's Update with Roon PC as the source with FLAC files on a Western Digital Black 6TB HDD.  It's a general purpose PC with no special audio components.

-Sonore microRendu with Uptone LPS-1

-Singxer SU-1 connected to the microRendu with a Curious USB short link

-Schiit Yggy connected to the Singxer SU-1 with a Transparent Reference AES cable

-Audio Research Ref5SE (stock 6H30 tubes but 6550 Winged C power tubte) connected to the Schiit Yggy with Shunyata Zitron Python Balanced XLR interconnects

-Sanders Magtech connected to the Audio Research Ref5SE with Groneberg TS Premium single-ended interconnects (soon to be Teo Game-Changer)

-Magnepan 3.7i (Empirical Design jumpers, no resistors) connected with Cerious Technologies Graphene Extreme Speaker cables

 

Blue Jeans Cat5E+ LAN cables.

 

Cerious Technologies Power cables on the Audio Research Ref5SE, Sanders Magtech.  Shunyata Alpha HC on the Schiit (yes I know it should be the digital version).  Stock power cord on the Singxer.  Stock cables on the LPS-1 but the power supply is connected with a Groneberg Quattro Reference Power Cable.  Cryo'ed Hubbell Outlets, dedicated 20 amp circuit but with 14 ga. cabling.  We tested without my subs on (Rythmik F12G).  Starsound Apprentice SP-SA-103-3 under the Audio Research Ref5SE, Sanders Magtech.

 

Room Treatments

Five GiK Monster Bass Traps with range limiters and scatter plates.

 

Three GiK QRD Diffusors

 

 

Now to the good stuff:

1.  First we just switched out the Sonore microRendu for the sMS-200 Ultra.  There was a massive resolution increase with this switch.

2.  Second we added in the tX-USB Ultra.  It added a lot of meatiness to the sound.  Bass increased in tightness, definition, and warmth.  It just sounded more round.

3.  Third we added in the switch with the bridge from my PC instead of going through my router.  The switch took out the edginess/grain and just sounded a lot more natural.

 

 

TL;DR

The SotM stack is awesome!

1. sMS-200 Ultra increases resolution

2. tX-USB Ultra increases meatiness, warmth, sounds rounder/fuller

3. Switch sounds smoother/more natural and gets rid of any edginess/gain.

 

If I had to quantify each improvement, I'd say each component adds 3-5% improvement for a total of 9-15%.  It's not subtle.  For me, each component had a bigger effect than going to the Dave from the Yggy.

 

 

Thanks for your report!

 

Regarding the Shunyata Alpha HC cord, with all my digital gear and especially with my DAC, I have found Shunyata's HC cord to sound much better than their Digital cord, which I attribute to lower line resistance.

 

Please clarify whether the SU-1 remained in your chain (meaning you eventually connected the tX-USBUltra to the SU-1) or did you replace the SU-1 with the tX-USBUltra.  To get the Yggy to sound better via USB than AES is saying a lot.

 

As with all things, these things are system dependent.  With my switch, what I noticed most was how much more massive the soundstage became.  

 

Lastly, as good as you think this all sounds, if you can stomach the cost, give the dCBL-CAT7 a try.  A pair of these combined with the iSO-CAT6 LAN isolator results in another big step change.  At some point, you just stop asking how it's possible and you just go with it.

 

Tomorrow, I will receive a tX-USBUltra and so I will have 4 Ultra devices in series to try.

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5 minutes ago, romaz said:

 

Thanks for your report!

 

Regarding the Shunyata Alpha HC cord, with all my digital gear and especially with my DAC, I have found Shunyata's HC cord to sound much better than their Digital cord, which I attribute to lower line resistance.

 

Please clarify whether the SU-1 remained in your chain (meaning you eventually connected the tX-USBUltra to the SU-1) or did you replace the SU-1 with the tX-USBUltra.  To get the Yggy to sound better via USB than AES is saying a lot.

 

As with all things, these things are system dependent.  With my switch, what I noticed most was how much more massive the soundstage became.  

 

Lastly, as good as you think this all sounds, if you can stomach the cost, give the dCBL-CAT7 a try.  A pair of these combined with the iSO-CAT6 LAN isolator results in another big step change.  At some point, you just stop asking how it's possible and you just go with it.

 

Tomorrow, I will receive a tX-USBUltra and so I will have 4 Ultra devices in series to try.

 

At first we replaced the Sonore microRendu with the sMS-200 Ultra and left the Singxer SU-1 in place.  Then we took the Singxer out and just used the sMS-200 Ultra direct to the Yggy via Curious USB.  The sMS-200 Ultra via Curious USB to Yggy was much better than the sMS-200 Ultra via Curious USB to the Singxer via Transparent Reference AES to the Yggy.

 

I may have to try those cables and filter.  I'm really wondering what a system with the SotM sClk-EX would sound like in the whole digital chain including the server and the DAC.  Aren't you testing the clock on the server side now?  Could you please tease us with some preliminary impressions?

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14 minutes ago, limniscate said:

@austinpop and I just finished our testing and confirmed the results from his system.  My system is as follows:

 

-Windows 10 Creator's Update with Roon PC as the source with FLAC files on a Western Digital Black 6TB HDD.  It's a general purpose PC with no special audio components.

-Sonore microRendu with Uptone LPS-1

-Singxer SU-1 connected to the microRendu with a Curious USB short link

-Schiit Yggy connected to the Singxer SU-1 with a Transparent Reference AES cable

-Audio Research Ref5SE (stock 6H30 tubes but 6550 Winged C power tubte) connected to the Schiit Yggy with Shunyata Zitron Python Balanced XLR interconnects

-Sanders Magtech connected to the Audio Research Ref5SE with Groneberg TS Premium single-ended interconnects (soon to be Teo Game-Changer)

-Magnepan 3.7i (Empirical Design jumpers, no resistors) connected with Cerious Technologies Graphene Extreme Speaker cables

 

Blue Jeans Cat5E+ LAN cables.

 

Cerious Technologies Power cables on the Audio Research Ref5SE, Sanders Magtech.  Shunyata Alpha HC on the Schiit (yes I know it should be the digital version).  Stock power cord on the Singxer.  Stock cables on the LPS-1 but the power supply is connected with a Groneberg Quattro Reference Power Cable.  Cryo'ed Hubbell Outlets, dedicated 20 amp circuit but with 14 ga. cabling.  We tested without my subs on (Rythmik F12G).  Starsound Apprentice SP-SA-103-3 under the Audio Research Ref5SE, Sanders Magtech.

 

Room Treatments

Five GiK Monster Bass Traps with range limiters and scatter plates.

 

Three GiK QRD Diffusors

 

 

Now to the good stuff:

1.  First we just switched out the Sonore microRendu for the sMS-200 Ultra.  There was a massive resolution increase with this switch.

2.  Second we added in the tX-USB Ultra.  It added a lot of meatiness to the sound.  Bass increased in tightness, definition, and warmth.  It just sounded more round.

3.  Third we added in the switch with the bridge from my PC instead of going through my router.  The switch took out the edginess/grain and just sounded a lot more natural.

 

 

TL;DR

The SotM stack is awesome!

1. sMS-200 Ultra increases resolution

2. tX-USB Ultra increases meatiness, warmth, sounds rounder/fuller

3. Switch sounds smoother/more natural and gets rid of any edginess/gain.

 

If I had to quantify each improvement, I'd say each component adds 3-5% improvement for a total of 9-15%.  It's not subtle.  For me, each component had a bigger effect than going to the Dave from the Yggy.

Thanks for both of your efforts.

 

1. SQwise, how do mR+txUltra and 200Ultra compare?

2. Have you two txUltra?  If yes, please try cascade them after the 200Ultra to check if this setup has reached the point of diminishing return.

 

 

I have a notion that each reclocking may hurt the original signal.  Hence the 1st txUltra will iron out the 1st order major hurts due to change of interface.  The 2nd txUltra will iron out the remaining 2nd order hurts remaining in the signal.  A 3rd txUltra (if its there) will iron out the 3rd order hurts remaining in the signal, ...

Clearly, sooner or later, the point of diminishing return will be reached.

 

Similarly a modified switch will iron out the 1st order major hurts due to change of interface, The 200Ultra will iron out the remaining 2nd order hurts remaining in the signal.  However the signal goes from LAN to USB and the 3rd clock in the USB side of the 200Ultra will iron out the 1st order major hurts due to change of interface.  The final txUltra will iron out the remaining 2nd order hurts remaining in the signal.

 

My 2 cents and hope that the notion may be falsified.

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Just now, greenleo said:

Thanks for both of your efforts.

 

1. SQwise, how do mR+txUltra and 200Ultra compare?

2. Have you two txUltra?  If yes, please try cascade them after the 200Ultra to check if this setup has reached the point of diminishing return.

 

 

I have a notion that each reclocking may hurt the original signal.  Hence the 1st txUltra will iron out the 1st order major hurts due to change of interface.  The 2nd txUltra will iron out the remaining 2nd order hurts remaining in the signal.  A 3rd txUltra (if its there) will iron out the 3rd order hurts remaining in the signal, ...

Clearly, sooner or later, the point of diminishing return will be reached.

 

Similarly a modified switch will iron out the 1st order major hurts due to change of interface, The 200Ultra will iron out the remaining 2nd order hurts remaining in the signal.  However the signal goes from LAN to USB and the 3rd clock in the USB side of the 200Ultra will iron out the 1st order major hurts due to change of interface.  The final txUltra will iron out the remaining 2nd order hurts remaining in the signal.

 

My 2 cents and hope that the notion may be falsified.

We forgot to test Sonore microRendu to tX-USB Ultra.

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16 minutes ago, romaz said:

 

Thanks for your report!

 

Regarding the Shunyata Alpha HC cord, with all my digital gear and especially with my DAC, I have found Shunyata's HC cord to sound much better than their Digital cord, which I attribute to lower line resistance.

 

Please clarify whether the SU-1 remained in your chain (meaning you eventually connected the tX-USBUltra to the SU-1) or did you replace the SU-1 with the tX-USBUltra.  To get the Yggy to sound better via USB than AES is saying a lot.

 

As with all things, these things are system dependent.  With my switch, what I noticed most was how much more massive the soundstage became.  

 

Lastly, as good as you think this all sounds, if you can stomach the cost, give the dCBL-CAT7 a try.  A pair of these combined with the iSO-CAT6 LAN isolator results in another big step change.  At some point, you just stop asking how it's possible and you just go with it.

 

Tomorrow, I will receive a tX-USBUltra and so I will have 4 Ultra devices in series to try.

Very much looking forward to your report.

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Does anyone plan to test just tx-USBUltra without SMS-200Ultra or micro rendu?  Maybe compare it to an ISO REGEN soon?

Edited by rickca

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12 minutes ago, limniscate said:

We forgot to test Sonore microRendu to tX-USB Ultra.

@Roy

 

Can you do us a favor to check the SQ of mR + txUltra vs 200Ultra?  It would be beneficial to the members who are using mR right now.

 

It would be great if you may check the SQ of 

txUltra + txUltra (yes, 2 clocks, USB endpoint) vs 200Ultra(yes, 2 clocks, NAA endpoint) as well.

 

Hopefully, the result will tell us a lot which is the best endpoint.

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39 minutes ago, limniscate said:

We forgot to test Sonore microRendu to tX-USB Ultra.

Missed opportunity on a lot of different configurations.  Quite a chore.  We also are left in the dark in comparison to USB only stream drop the Ethernet.  Would have been nice to hear about  Server to tX-USB Ultra to DAC in comparison.

Edited by ElviaCaprice

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1 hour ago, romaz said:

Tomorrow, I will receive a tX-USBUltra and so I will have 4 Ultra devices in series to try.

 

Roy, it will be nice to hear how you find the tX-USBUltra in comparison.  Hopefully you can do a direct USB only, drop the Ethernet, comparison.  I would be curious about just 1 EX against 1 EX , Ethernet vs USB direct.  Which I guess you can't do now that I think about it, with 2EX clocks in the sms-200.

Edited by ElviaCaprice

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1 hour ago, limniscate said:

Shunyata Alpha HC on the Schiit (yes I know it should be the digital version).  

 

The Alpha Digital was intended for purely digital devices, such as music servers.  For devices that include analog circuits, like DACs, the Alpha HC is the better choice.  The HC provides better dynamic transient current delivery, along with the filtering provided by the Digital cord.

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1 hour ago, limniscate said:

 

At first we replaced the Sonore microRendu with the sMS-200 Ultra and left the Singxer SU-1 in place.  Then we took the Singxer out and just used the sMS-200 Ultra direct to the Yggy via Curious USB.  The sMS-200 Ultra via Curious USB to Yggy was much better than the sMS-200 Ultra via Curious USB to the Singxer via Transparent Reference AES to the Yggy.

 

 

This again confirms that the last clocking before the DAC is the most important and that poorer clocking following a better clock degrades SQ.

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Thanks @austinpop and @limniscate for your efforts and for sharing your impressions with us. This means that @romaz theory of the benefit of cascading clocks is validated.

Still the open question as others mentioned is: how does the impact of cascading of clocks differ (or not) in a pure USB vs a hybrid ethernet/USB path?

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Why does it make sense technically that signals that are repeatedly reclocked get better?  Why can't a single reclock just before the DAC do the job as well?

 

If we need multiple reclocks, why can't we just put several clocks in the same box?

Edited by rickca

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1 hour ago, rickca said:

Why does it make sense technically that signals that are repeatedly reclocked get better?  Why can't a single reclock just before the DAC do the job as well?

 

If we need multiple reclocks, why can't we just put several clocks in the same box?

 

I've asked this same question and even posed it to Superdad and John S. in the Superclock thread.  Jesus did respond and doesnt appear to be in favor, with a solid logical arguement.  But if an improvement can be heard is it real or just different?  Maybe it defies current theory or they don't know.  My simplistic guess is that the jitter noise doesn't get completely cleaned by the first better clock but by the second it's improved.

 

Jitter and other noise can carry all the way from the storage device.  I think if we want a truly prestine stack we need the best clocks at every stage along the way, from the NAS to the DAC.  I have a feeling Roy will like what he hears from his modded motherboard.  The next step would be the NAS but is a painful sacrifice in cost and and time away from your music source.  All can be had for a price.

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I'm looking to have my sms-200 modified to an ultra and it appears what SOtM is doing is running a separate SMB interface for the clock between devices.  The SMB would be on each device; sms-200, txusb and switch.  I'm trusting their expertise and hopefully this separation, and interface is an improvement. I know that running a separate master clock results in a decrease of quality and this appears to be something different.  I'm not 100% clear on it yet.

 

See picture.

591514270c8fb_SMBconnection_1.thumb.jpg.d3464754d1f19d28d2fbeadde94a6090.jpg

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Singxer su1 minimum requirement 2 Pcs!! Lps1 power(5v).Use it ?

Singxer use bad clock? New uptone usb use the same.....

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1 minute ago, hurka said:

Singxer su1 minimum requirement 2 Pcs!! Lps1 power(5v).Use it ?

Singxer use bad clock? New uptone usb use the same.....

SU1 only uses the same clock as ISO Regen for the I2S output, not the other outputs. 

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