A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming

[ElviaCaprice]

19 minutes ago, Tom75 said:

I know the Chord 2Qute's galvanic isolation is not perfect

 

It's not perfect, no galvanic isolation is perfect, but I have to say, Chords galvanic isolation on it's DAC's is probably the best I've seen (or heard about from others) in the market.  It's that good.  In fact, it has me doubting the benefits of the upcoming ISO Regen, in conjunction with the 2Qute.  I'm getting the best sound I've heard yet with my current setup and that doesn't include any reclockers or additional galvanic isolators.  I think the Topaz (and improved 2Qute power supply) has really brought it together for low impedance throughout my system and even made my poor HDPlex a better power supply.  Instead of adding new expensive reclockers/isolators, I would rather now turn to the server itself and see what kind of additional improvements can be had, whether it's a new power supply, mobo, or clocking.

[lmitche]

Elvia, why I appreciate that talking in absolutes should often be avoided, the GI of something like a glass fiber is pretty damn close to perfect.

[ElviaCaprice]

18 minutes ago, lmitche said:

Elvia, why I appreciate that talking in absolutes should often be avoided, the GI of something like a glass fiber is pretty damn close to perfect.

 

Agree Larry, I am in a dilemma in which direction is best to take.  Renderer w/ new clocking, expensive, format capability reduced along with other software issues.  Server only, no audiophile mobos, bad switching regulators.  Adnaco, glass fiber, probably the most sensible at this time, no software or format restriction with Server fed, clocking probably not the best on the fiber receiver/USB generator. 

[greenleo]

2 hours ago, Tom75 said:

 

Thanks everyone, specially @romaz 

I know the Chord 2Qute's galvanic isolation is not perfect so I'm sure there is some room for this kind of optimisation but I think the best what I can do is getting a tX-USBUltra or a Mutec first.

Don't forget Iso Regen is coming out as well.

[lmitche]

57 minutes ago, ElviaCaprice said:

 

Agree Larry, I am in a dilemma in which direction is best to take.  Renderer w/ new clocking, expensive, format capability reduced along with other software issues.  Server only, no audiophile mobos, bad switching regulators.  Adnaco, glass fiber, probably the most sensible at this time, no software or format restriction with Server fed, clocking probably not the best on the fiber receiver/USB generator. 

I'm looking forward to hearing the ISO Regen here.  The last clock will then be the best clock! Shouldn't be long now.

[ElviaCaprice]

1 hour ago, lmitche said:

I'm looking forward to hearing the ISO Regen here.  The last clock will then be the best clock! Shouldn't be long now.

But how good is this clock, when compared to others?  Do you really need the galvanic isolation if it's well incorporated into your Chord DAC?  Would this galvanic isolation actually complement the Chord's galvanic isolation?  And best of all, does it improve SQ?  Is there a better alternative?  Guess we will find out soon.  At worse, I will keep the USB adapter and could use another LPS-1.  Sell the ISO Regen.

[romaz]

So, I found a way to externally power an M.2 SSD (either SATA or NVMe) provided that you have a free PCIe slot and it's an inexpensive solution:

 

http://www.addonics.com/products/ad2m2s-px4.php

 

If you click on the Specifications tab, you'll see that this board offers the option of PCIe bus power although it specifically uses the more desirable 12V rail (and not the 3.3V rail) from the PCIe bus.  Should you connect a 5V SATA power connector to this card, even better, the card reverts to external 5V power.  Really pretty clever.

 

The only question, is this a better way to go?  If you have no desire to invest in better SATA cables, it could be.  M.2 SLC SSDs are available but they are still current hogs drawing up to 2A in current and are prohibitively expensive:

 

http://www.addonics.com/products/indm2.php

 

It's possible the new Intel M.2 SSDs could work well.

[sbilotta]

5 hours ago, ElviaCaprice said:

But how good is this clock, when compared to others?  

especially compared to SOtM's tX-USBultra ?

[Johnseye]

7 hours ago, romaz said:

So, I found a way to externally power an M.2 SSD (either SATA or NVMe) provided that you have a free PCIe slot and it's an inexpensive solution:

 

http://www.addonics.com/products/ad2m2s-px4.php

 

If you click on the Specifications tab, you'll see that this board offers the option of PCIe bus power although it specifically uses the more desirable 12V rail (and not the 3.3V rail) from the PCIe bus.  Should you connect a 5V SATA power connector to this card, even better, the card reverts to external 5V power.  Really pretty clever.

 

The only question, is this a better way to go?  If you have no desire to invest in better SATA cables, it could be.  M.2 SLC SSDs are available but they are still current hogs drawing up to 2A in current and are prohibitively expensive:

 

http://www.addonics.com/products/indm2.php

 

It's possible the new Intel M.2 SSDs could work well.

 

Thanks for finding this, and for your help with discussing component capabilities. This is a great option for M.2.  I just ordered one of the newer Intel M.2 drives.  Unfortunately none of the mobos I've been looking at are just exactly perfect.  I had wanted an ITX board with on board 12v but it looks like it will need to be a microATX with a PicoPSU adapter.  Not sure how the adapter will impact things if at all.  This does open up the door to two PCIe slots and the possibility of using the Addonics card along with the Intel NIC.  It also allows an Optane ready board in the event that proves to a beneficial architecture.

 

I did end up going with the i7-7700T so will see if 35w is enough power to upsample.

[Johnseye]

A question for @romaz or anyone familiar with connecting a mobo to an external LPSU such as the SR7.  With an onboard 12v DC connection it's fairly straight forward.  I thought the PicoPSU adapter could be used but it appears this might be a PSU itself, although it's hard to tell.  Is this used to connect a 24 pin ATX to an SR7 or is there another kind of adapter?

[ted_b]

The PICO PSU takes 12V (I assume, I had a 12V one and a 19V one and used my Hynes both ways, dialing up or down the voltage internally on the Hynes) and delivers it to the peripherals, etc via the 20-24 pins.  At the other end is a female dc input.  Plug the Hynes in there, or find a spot on the case where it attaches to a dc plug.

[Johnseye]

3 minutes ago, ted_b said:

The PICO PSU takes 12V (I assume, I had a 12V one and a 19V one and used my Hynes both ways, dialing up or down the voltage internally on the Hynes) and delivers it to the peripherals, etc via the 20-24 pins.  At the other end is a female dc input.  Plug the Hynes in there, or find a spot on the case where it attaches to a dc plug.

 

Ok then the PICO PSU isn't exactly a full PSU, but more of an adapter.  Then it should work connecting any mobo to a Hynes.  Did the mobo spec or the total device power requirement determine whether to use 12v vs 19v?

[ted_b]

6 minutes ago, Johnseye said:

 

Ok then the PICO PSU isn't exactly a full PSU, but more of an adapter.  Then it should work connecting any mobo to a Hynes.  Did the mobo spec or the total device power requirement determine whether to use 12v vs 19v?

The mobo allowed either in its range.  I simply wanted to know if 19V sounded better, but it was inconclusive.  This was 3 years ago.

[romaz]

2 hours ago, Johnseye said:

 

Ok then the PICO PSU isn't exactly a full PSU, but more of an adapter.  Then it should work connecting any mobo to a Hynes.  Did the mobo spec or the total device power requirement determine whether to use 12v vs 19v?

 

 

The Pico PSU is a DC-ATX adapter that takes a 12V input.  HDPlex makes one also that takes a 16-24V input.  The HDPlex is better designed and has better specs.  By the account of many here on CA, it is the better sounding converter as it uses better grade capacitors and inductors.  It also has greater headroom.  Unfortunately, neither of these converters can be considered high-end without modification but at the very least, they're not very expensive either.  

 

These adapters are necessary for any ATX motherboard because the ATX power spec calls for specific voltages (+12V, +5V, +3.3V) as well as a -12V rail for legacy RS-232 and PCI ports and a 5V standby rail to provide soft power to the motherboard when you have your machine turned off.  Since no typical LPSU will have all these rails, these adapters become necessary and the 24-pin ATX connector that is used will then have the necessary pin layout to feed the motherboard these specific voltages.

 

An alternative to using such an adapter would be to buy an ATX PSU.  With the adapter, you have the voltage regulators within the adapter itself.   With an ATX PSU, all the regulators are within the PSU chassis.  Aside from HDPlex and Teradak, all the ATX PSUs you can buy today, as far as I'm aware, are of the switching type.  Switching ATX PSUs are much less expensive, smaller in size, have higher efficiency and run cooler.  Linear ATX PSUs have the potential to have a lower noise floor and lower output impedance but they come at a greater cost, generate more heat, and presently max out at 820w.

 

If you buy a thin mini-ITX or mini-STX motherboard, then the regulators for the 5V and 3.3V rails are integrated within the motherboard.  NUCs and Mac Minis fall into this category also.  This is why you can feed these motherboards a single 12V lead from something like a Paul Hynes SR7 or Uptone JS2.  Unfortunately, because most 12V supplies max out at 10A, such motherboards will rarely contain multiple high-speed (and high-power) slots.  Generally, the most you will find is a single PCIe 3.0 x 8 slot and/or an M.2 PCIe 3.0 x 4 slot.

[Johnseye]

7 minutes ago, romaz said:

 

The Pico PSU is a DC-ATX adapter that takes a 12V input.  HDPlex makes one also that takes a 16-24V input.  The HDPlex is better designed and has better specs.  By the account of many here on CA, it is the better sounding converter as it uses better grade capacitors and inductors.  It also has greater headroom.  Unfortunately, neither of these converters can be considered high-end without modification but at the very least, they're not very expensive either.  

 

These adapters are necessary for any ATX motherboard because the ATX power spec calls for specific voltages (+12V, +5V, +3.3V) as well as a -12V rail for legacy RS-232 and PCI ports and a 5V standby rail to provide soft power to the motherboard when you have your machine turned off.  Since no typical LPSU will have all these rails, these adapters become necessary and the 24-pin ATX connector that is used will then have the necessary pin layout to feed the motherboard these specific voltages.

 

An alternative to using such an adapter would be to buy an ATX PSU.  With the adapter, you have the voltage regulators within the adapter itself.   With an ATX PSU, all the regulators are within the PSU chassis.  Aside from HDPlex and Teradak, all the ATX PSUs you can buy today, as far as I'm aware, are of the switching type.  Switching ATX PSUs are much less expensive, smaller in size, have higher efficiency and run cooler.  Linear ATX PSUs have the potential to have a lower noise floor and lower output impedance but they come at a greater cost, generate more heat, and presently max out at 820w.

 

If you buy a thin mini-ITX or mini-STX motherboard, then the regulators for the 5V and 3.3V rails are integrated within the motherboard.  NUCs and Mac Minis fall into this category also.  This is why you can feed these motherboards a single 12V lead from something like a Paul Hynes SR7 or Uptone JS2.  Unfortunately, because most 12V supplies max out at 10A, such motherboards will rarely contain multiple high-speed (and high-power) slots.  Generally, the most you will find is a single PCIe 3.0 x 8 slot and/or an M.2 PCIe 3.0 x 4 slot.

 

Assuming I went with the HDPLEX 160W DC-ATX would I need Paul to make one of the rails of the SR7 a 19v?  If I go with the Pico it stays 12v but the sound quality could suffer?  Is 12v enough to power a miniATX, or does it depend on the total watts used, or what's being powered by the different voltages?

 

I'd prefer to avoid the ATX PSU as I'd at least like to benefit from the low noise of a Hynes LPSU.  The mini ITX and STX boards are very limiting as you know and I don't want to limit myself or paint into a corner if possible.  Sacrifices are being made here, but I'd like to make as few as possible.

[Tom75]

On 2017-4-12 at 1:08 AM, ElviaCaprice said:

 

It's not perfect, no galvanic isolation is perfect, but I have to say, Chords galvanic isolation on it's DAC's is probably the best I've seen (or heard about from others) in the market.  It's that good.  In fact, it has me doubting the benefits of the upcoming ISO Regen, in conjunction with the 2Qute.  I'm getting the best sound I've heard yet with my current setup and that doesn't include any reclockers or additional galvanic isolators.  I think the Topaz (and improved 2Qute power supply) has really brought it together for low impedance throughout my system and even made my poor HDPlex a better power supply.  Instead of adding new expensive reclockers/isolators, I would rather now turn to the server itself and see what kind of additional improvements can be had, whether it's a new power supply, mobo, or clocking.

2

 

Thanks for the reply! I believe in lowering the noise is very important and I have a linear power supply for my 2Qute as I have this MCRU and it does make a pretty good job but I'm wondering what have you done with yours? My SSD has been powered with my HDPlex 100W, PPA card powered by LPS-1+HDPlex, MOBO has a linear power supply with a toroidal transformer so that's why I would look the improvement elsewhere.   

[romaz]

24 minutes ago, Johnseye said:

 

Assuming I went with the HDPLEX 160W DC-ATX would I need Paul to make one of the rails of the SR7 a 19v?  If I go with the Pico it stays 12v but the sound quality could suffer?  Is 12v enough to power a miniATX, or does it depend on the total watts used, or what's being powered by the different voltages?

 

I'd prefer to avoid the ATX PSU as I'd at least like to benefit from the low noise of a Hynes LPSU.  The mini ITX and STX boards are very limiting as you know and I don't want to limit myself or paint into a corner if possible.  Sacrifices are being made here, but I'd like to make as few as possible.

 

 

If you go the HDPlex route, you might as well get their 300W adapter.  It uses better parts even if you don't need 300W.

 

With the HDPlex, you would ask Paul for a 19V rail.  How much power is enough will depend on the draw of the components you select.  The SR7 utilizes a 250VA mains transformer and can output 125 watts continuously and 480 watts transiently.  If you have needs beyond this, it can be done but will be very expensive.  Paul has talked about building an ATX PSU but to have it perform to the level of his SR7, I am guessing it would easily cost more than $4k.  

 

As good as the SR7 is, some of its performance will be negated by the DC-ATX adapter and further limited by the switching regulators within any motherboard you buy.  For sure, there will be compromises.

 

I have come across a purpose-built audiophile class motherboard with linear regulators, short-signal paths, a low power CPU and has very good clocks.  It also runs its lightweight OS off an electrically quiet mini-SD card and can run Roon and HQP.  It can also be powered by the full glory of an SR7.  Pretty much everything you would want.  It's called the microRendu or sMS-200.  

[Johnseye]

3 minutes ago, romaz said:

 

If you go the HDPlex route, you might as well get their 300W adapter.  It uses better parts even if you don't need 300W.

 

With the HDPlex, you would ask Paul for a 19V rail.  How much power is enough will depend on the draw of the components you select.  The SR7 utilizes a 250VA mains transformer and can output 125 watts continuously and 480 watts transiently.  If you have needs beyond this, it can be done but will be very expensive.  Paul has talked about building an ATX PSU but to have it perform to the level of his SR7, I am guessing it would easily cost more than $4k.  

 

As good as the SR7 is, some of its performance will be negated by the DC-ATX adapter and further limited by the switching regulators within any motherboard you buy.  For sure, there will be compromises.

 

I'll have to kick this around with Paul, he provided me a spec to power what I thought I was going to be building, plus my sms-200/mRendu and turntable.  Pretty sweet opportunity if I can limit myself to a single PCIe and M.2 which is where I'm starting to head.  There is the HDPlex 400w ATX LPSU option, but again more sacrifices.

 

Paul's asked me to determine the total wattage rating for the server rail which I'm struggling with.  I can easily add up the watts from the mobo's components, although the memory may be difficult as it isn't clearly stated.  How is it possible to determine what the wattage requirements are of the mobo itself?

 

6 minutes ago, romaz said:

I have come across a purpose-built audiophile class motherboard with linear regulators, short-signal paths, a low power CPU and has very good clocks.  It also runs its lightweight OS off an electrically quiet mini-SD card and can run Roon and HQP.  It can also be powered by the full glory of an SR7.  Pretty much everything you would want.  It's called the microRendu or sMS-200.  

 

Yup except they have their limitations too don't they, otherwise we wouldn't be investing this kind of effort in a server.  I think we'll get there one day.  It's an evolution, and considering John S's posts in Audio Stream were almost 4 years ago, it's a slow evolution.

[romaz]

39 minutes ago, Johnseye said:

How is it possible to determine what the wattage requirements are of the mobo itself?

 

 

Here's a place to start:  http://www.coolermaster.com/power-supply-calculator/

[Johnseye]

6 minutes ago, romaz said:

 

Here's a place to start:  http://www.coolermaster.com/power-supply-calculator/

 

Thanks Roy

[ElviaCaprice]

2 hours ago, Tom75 said:

 

Thanks for the reply! I believe in lowering the noise is very important and I have a linear power supply for my 2Qute as I have this MCRU and it does make a pretty good job but I'm wondering what have you done with yours? My SSD has been powered with my HDPlex 100W, PPA card powered by LPS-1+HDPlex, MOBO has a linear power supply with a toroidal transformer so that's why I would look the improvement elsewhere.   

Hi Tom,

I have not heard too many good things about that MCRU power supply.  I think you could do much better, at minimum two LPS-1s in a series or a VR mini.   The DAC power supply is critical.  

Other than that, an isolation transformer as described in the thread here on the forum is a big bang for the buck upgrade I would recommend.

[seeteeyou]

3 hours ago, romaz said:

I have come across a purpose-built audiophile class motherboard with linear regulators, short-signal paths, a low power CPU and has very good clocks.  It also runs its lightweight OS off an electrically quiet mini-SD card and can run Roon and HQP.  It can also be powered by the full glory of an SR7.  Pretty much everything you would want.  It's called the microRendu or sMS-200.  

 

Both of them have a low power CPU but it's still a dedicated ARM processor, that's only good for the client side (Roon Ready and HQ Player NAA) while the server side can't work without x86 processors.

 

Qualcomm Collaborates with Microsoft to Support Windows 10 Computing Devices on Next Generation Qualcomm Snapdragon Processors

https://www.qualcomm.com/news/releases/2016/12/08/qualcomm-collaborates-microsoft-support-windows-10-computing-devices-next

 

Qualcomm Snapdragon 835 Will Be Able To Emulate x86

https://www.androidheadlines.com/2017/01/qualcomm-snapdragon-835-will-able-emulate-x86.html

 

If the emulation were accomplished on the server side, I wonder how that would affect the sound / noise / power requirements etc.

 

OTOH, I wonder if the following Mini-PCIe and PCIe x1 slots were going through PCH or otherwise

 

http://www.cnx-software.com/2016/09/06/asrock-imb-157-is-one-of-the-first-intel-apollo-lake-motherboards/

 

Is it such a significant compromise when we providing via 4-pin ATX PWR Con instead of the usual ATX 24-pin?

 

http://www.asrock.com/ipc/overview.asp?Model=IMB-157

 

We could still add an Ethernet card with the industrial M12 connectors, and then there's still one more full-sized PCIe x1 slot for something else

 

http://www.wdlsystems.com/Communications/PerfecTron-MT321M-Gigabit-Ethernet-Adapter-Network-Mini-PCIe-Module-with-2-X-M12-Connectors.html

 

BTW, it would be interesting to design a purpose-built carrier board that's similar to SolidPC Q4

 

http://wiki.solid-run.com/doku.php?id=products:ibx:documents

 

The carrier board plus one of the MicroSoM (with x86 processor) would cost anywhere between $180 and $300 at the moment. Should be double or triple that price tag for an "audiophile" version if SOtM or Sonore were partnering with SolidRun?

 

https://www.solid-run.com/product/solidpc-q4-carrier/

[greenleo]

@Roy,

 

Have you any tools to tell if an X25E is new or just trust the seller?

[rickca]

8 minutes ago, greenleo said:

Have you any tools to tell if an X25E is new or just trust the seller?

The SMART statistics will tell you stuff like power on hours, power cycles and so on.

[romaz]

21 hours ago, seeteeyou said:

 

Both of them have a low power CPU but it's still a dedicated ARM processor, that's only good for the client side (Roon Ready and HQ Player NAA) while the server side can't work without x86 processors.

 

Understood, but both the mR and sMS-200 present us with an ideal model to try and emulate.  Good low power X86 processors with large secondary caches exist now.  No need to go to non-X86 CPUs and resort to emulation:

 

https://ark.intel.com/products/95441/Intel-Core-i7-7Y75-Processor-4M-Cache-up-to-3_60-GHz

 

The problem is the lack of suitable motherboards.  This is why I believe you need one of these types of endpoints if your goal is ultimate SQ since no single box server will ever have all the ideal characteristics that audiophiles desire.