A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming

[rettib2001]

On 1/11/2019 at 1:54 PM, Blackmorec said:

from the RE650 Extender, made a custom vibration isolated wall mount,  asked Sean Jacobs to wire a DC3 Mundorf directly to the RE650’s board and plugged the DC3 into my dedicated mains (the RE650 had been plugged into house mains. 

This section of your post peaked my interest as I have an RE650 gathering dust but always wondered if it could make its way into my audio chain! 

 

I don't suppose you have any photos of how Sean Jacobs went about wiring in an external power supply do you? Or even a little information as to what he did? 

 

I've opened mine up and the built in smps is connected to the main body via a 6 pin (two rows of three) connector. I suppose I could just pop a multimeter on the pins to see what's going on but given my limited skills I'd loved to have stumbled on just two pins, one live one neutral 😉. 

[Blackmorec]

Firstly a warning.  Opening up electronic modules like the RE650 while plugged in to mains electricity can expose you to lethal currents. Do not open up the unit or perform any modification unless you are familiar with all safety precautions around mains electricity and properly qualified to do so. If you aren’t qualified, as I’m not, then go to some one who is, as i did.😊 

 

 Afraid I don’t have any pictures or description of how Sean attached the cable. Essentially I dropped off a unit with complete SMPS and mains plug pins removed and picked up a sealed unit with captive DC cable and 5V DC3 supply. 

 

[rettib2001]

17 hours ago, Blackmorec said:

Firstly a warning.  Opening up electronic modules like the RE650 while plugged in to mains electricity can expose you to lethal currents. Do not open up the unit or perform any modification unless you are familiar with all safety precautions around mains electricity and properly qualified to do so. If you aren’t qualified, as I’m not, then go to some one who is, as i did.😊 

 

 Afraid I don’t have any pictures or description of how Sean attached the cable. Essentially I dropped off a unit with complete SMPS and mains plug pins removed and picked up a sealed unit with captive DC cable and 5V DC3 supply. 

 

Thanks for the reply. 

 

Looks like I might have to get in touch with him them. 

[oilpaint]

 

I thought this post would be helpful to those people who lurk on CS but don’t have the full grasp of all the issues and terms discussed here (that would be me). My system had evolved over the years to include the following:  MacBook Air - SOtM 200Ultra Neo - SOtM tX USBultra - Mutec MC3+USB - Devialet 1000 - Magico S3s with a Mutec REF-10 clocking the 200, tX, and MC3. Sounded great - but what a lot of boxes and cables!

 

Always looking for better sound, I had been following discussions about the dCS NETWORK BRIDGE and arraigned to demo one in my system. I also starting following the NUC thread here on CS. I am not a computer person so much of the discussion was over my head and, quite frankly, confusing - Linux, BIOS, Commands, etc. Much of it seemed to be for the CS DIY crowd - which I am definitely not a member of. But, I was intrigued because the sound quality was supposed to be great (hold on, here I go again..). So, I kept an eye on the discussion while I awaited the NETWORK BRIDGE demo.

 

In the meantime, I read of lmitche’s service (NUCkleadaudio.com) to build NUCs for computer-challenged folks. Still not fully understanding what a NUC is and what it does I contacted NUCklehead, explained my system, indicated I was about to demo a NB, and asked what NUCklehead could offer instead. Larry got back to me right away. After multiple emails - mostly me asking questions about how a NUC would work for me based on the way I listen to music and Larry responding and saying “keep the questions coming” - I decided to go for it. Basically, in my system, it would replace the SOtM 200Ultra, and if it really sounded great, maybe a few other boxes???

 

Ten days later (and before the NETWORK BRIDGE demo) Larry actually hand delivered a NUC to my house (not sure he does this all over the world...). It requires a power supply so I used the SR4 that was previously powering the SOtM 200. The first time you power up the NUC you insert a USB stick - either one for ROON (if I am only listening to ROON) or one for NAA (if I am listening to HQP through ROON). After a couple of minutes - the NUC shows up as a Zone in ROON - and you are good to go.

 

My word it sounded great. "Clearness', 'Bigness', come to mind (if those are musical terms) - in particular, voices and the bass were outstanding - and this was all with only the NUC in play - an ethernet cable into the NUC and a USB cable out to the Devialet. His work done, Larry got back on his magic carpet and left - and I continued to listen and enjoy the music.

 

The next day I decided to put the other components (tX-USB, MC3, and REF-10) back in to the chain. I found it sounded great (as in the same with just the NUC) which made me think the NUC was really bringing something different to the system. So, one by one I removed the other components. Still the same great sound. So, as near as I can tell I have improved the sound and I have removed the following from my system:

 

SOtM tX-USBUltra (with Master Clock input)

SOtM 500 Power Supply

SOtM 500 Power Cable

SOtM 500 DC Silver Power Cable

1 USB Cable

1 BNC Master Clock Cable

Mutec MC3+USB (with Master Clock input)

Mutec MC3+USB Power Cable

XLR Cable

1 BNC Master Clock Cable

Mutec REF-10

Mutec REF-10 Power Cable

1 BNC Master Clock Cable (had gone to the 200Ultra)

 

I am very happy with the sound quality first, and second, the simplification of the system. So much so that I asked Larry to build me a NUC Server that has now replaced my laptop - once again with a bump up in sound quality. The Server concerned me a bit because it is 'headless' but so far - no issues.

 

This is what I have in place now:

 

NUC End Point (replaced the SOtM 200Ultra)

1.9-4.2Ghz Turbo Intel Core i7-865OU Quad-Core Processor/motherboard

4 Gb low latency ram

Akasa X7D Fanless Case

Audiolinux Headless Ramboot installed with NAA

 

NUC Server (replaced my laptop)

1.9-4.2Ghz Turbo Intel Core i7-865OU Quad-Core Processor/motherboard

8 Gb low latency ram

32 Gb Optane SSD

Akasa X7D Fanless Case

 

To be clear, I have no relationship with Larry - just a very satisfied customer. I can't say enough about his responsiveness and level of service. For example, early on I had 5 HDMI zones showing up as ROON Zones. I mentioned it to him and he Team Viewer-ed into my system and made them go away. Poof! At another point he emailed me he thought he found a setting in the BIOS that should be changed. So he called in and talked me through the change in the BIOS - who knew I would be (or should be) mucking about with the BIOS???

 

I am very happy with the NUC sound quality and simplification to my system. I cannot think of any other tweak that improved the sound as much as this move. It’s interesting - I started years ago simply with a laptop to mRendu to Devialet and I am kind of back there - but with a massive sound improvement.

 

Never did have that dCS NETWORK BRIDGE demo….

 

Dan

[bobfa]

30 minutes ago, oilpaint said:

 

 

I thought this post would be helpful to those people who lurk on CS but don’t have the full grasp of all the issues and terms discussed here (that would be me). My system had evolved over the years to include the following:  MacBook Air - SOtM 200Ultra Neo - SOtM tX USBultra - Mutec MC3+USB - Devialet 1000 - Magico S3s with a Mutec REF-10 clocking the 200, tX, and MC3. Sounded great - but what a lot of boxes and cables!

 

 

Dan

Dan,

 

Thanks for the report I am glad your system is sounding better and that it is a lot simpler.

 

Quick question are you using a wired Ethernet connection between the two NUC boxes?  In the first part of the post you mentioned Ethernet but I was wondering if you had gone to wireless when you installed the server?

 

Bob

[motberg]

4 hours ago, oilpaint said:

 

 

I thought this post would be helpful to those people who lurk on CS but don’t have the full grasp of all the issues and terms discussed here (that would be me). My system had evolved over the years to include the following:  MacBook Air - SOtM 200Ultra Neo - SOtM tX USBultra - Mutec MC3+USB - Devialet 1000 - Magico S3s with a Mutec REF-10 clocking the 200, tX, and MC3. Sounded great - but what a lot of boxes and cables!

 

Always looking for better sound, I had been following discussions about the dCS NETWORK BRIDGE and arraigned to demo one in my system. I also starting following the NUC thread here on CS. I am not a computer person so much of the discussion was over my head and, quite frankly, confusing - Linux, BIOS, Commands, etc. Much of it seemed to be for the CS DIY crowd - which I am definitely not a member of. But, I was intrigued because the sound quality was supposed to be great (hold on, here I go again..). So, I kept an eye on the discussion while I awaited the NETWORK BRIDGE demo.

 

In the meantime, I read of lmitche’s service (NUCkleadaudio.com) to build NUCs for computer-challenged folks. Still not fully understanding what a NUC is and what it does I contacted NUCklehead, explained my system, indicated I was about to demo a NB, and asked what NUCklehead could offer instead. Larry got back to me right away. After multiple emails - mostly me asking questions about how a NUC would work for me based on the way I listen to music and Larry responding and saying “keep the questions coming” - I decided to go for it. Basically, in my system, it would replace the SOtM 200Ultra, and if it really sounded great, maybe a few other boxes???

 

Ten days later (and before the NETWORK BRIDGE demo) Larry actually hand delivered a NUC to my house (not sure he does this all over the world...). It requires a power supply so I used the SR4 that was previously powering the SOtM 200. The first time you power up the NUC you insert a USB stick - either one for ROON (if I am only listening to ROON) or one for NAA (if I am listening to HQP through ROON). After a couple of minutes - the NUC shows up as a Zone in ROON - and you are good to go.

 

My word it sounded great. "Clearness', 'Bigness', come to mind (if those are musical terms) - in particular, voices and the bass were outstanding - and this was all with only the NUC in play - an ethernet cable into the NUC and a USB cable out to the Devialet. His work done, Larry got back on his magic carpet and left - and I continued to listen and enjoy the music.

 

The next day I decided to put the other components (tX-USB, MC3, and REF-10) back in to the chain. I found it sounded great (as in the same with just the NUC) which made me think the NUC was really bringing something different to the system. So, one by one I removed the other components. Still the same great sound. So, as near as I can tell I have improved the sound and I have removed the following from my system:

 

SOtM tX-USBUltra (with Master Clock input)

SOtM 500 Power Supply

SOtM 500 Power Cable

SOtM 500 DC Silver Power Cable

1 USB Cable

1 BNC Master Clock Cable

Mutec MC3+USB (with Master Clock input)

Mutec MC3+USB Power Cable

XLR Cable

1 BNC Master Clock Cable

Mutec REF-10

Mutec REF-10 Power Cable

1 BNC Master Clock Cable (had gone to the 200Ultra)

 

I am very happy with the sound quality first, and second, the simplification of the system. So much so that I asked Larry to build me a NUC Server that has now replaced my laptop - once again with a bump up in sound quality. The Server concerned me a bit because it is 'headless' but so far - no issues.

 

This is what I have in place now:

 

NUC End Point (replaced the SOtM 200Ultra)

1.9-4.2Ghz Turbo Intel Core i7-865OU Quad-Core Processor/motherboard

4 Gb low latency ram

Akasa X7D Fanless Case

Audiolinux Headless Ramboot installed with NAA

 

NUC Server (replaced my laptop)

1.9-4.2Ghz Turbo Intel Core i7-865OU Quad-Core Processor/motherboard

8 Gb low latency ram

32 Gb Optane SSD

Akasa X7D Fanless Case

 

To be clear, I have no relationship with Larry - just a very satisfied customer. I can't say enough about his responsiveness and level of service. For example, early on I had 5 HDMI zones showing up as ROON Zones. I mentioned it to him and he Team Viewer-ed into my system and made them go away. Poof! At another point he emailed me he thought he found a setting in the BIOS that should be changed. So he called in and talked me through the change in the BIOS - who knew I would be (or should be) mucking about with the BIOS???

 

I am very happy with the NUC sound quality and simplification to my system. I cannot think of any other tweak that improved the sound as much as this move. It’s interesting - I started years ago simply with a laptop to mRendu to Devialet and I am kind of back there - but with a massive sound improvement.

 

Never did have that dCS NETWORK BRIDGE demo….

 

Dan

Dan, Thanks... this is a very interesting point of reference..

Quick question..... What is the OS on the NUC Server?

[oilpaint]

I have a simple switch that is connected to a router. Then I have an Ethernet cable from each NUC to this switch - no wireless anywhere. The OS is Audiolinux.

 

Dan

[flkin]

Removed

[numlog]

EDIT: sorry, I mean NVMe M.2 drives

 

has anyone compared the sound difference between an M.2 stick drive and SATA SSD?

 

I have only used SATA SSD for audio PC because I already owned one, It also fairly easily allowed use of external supply with them.

I had bought a cheap SATA PCI card and modified that to use external supply too, and was considering buying a hifi SATA cable to complete the optimisation of SATA storage... but it turns out that with a card adapter like this M.2 can be powered externally too which I thought wasnt possible. Aside from this critical advantage SATA had over M.2 , looking at the adapter it also appears that it natively connects to PCI which is a pretty substantial... can upgrading clocks or using better power supply for a SATA PCI controller ever beat a native PCI connection?

Better yet no cables, another huge problem area of SATA eliminated.

And then the actual question I was wondering: Could M.2 sticks actually sound better than SSDs under the same conditions?

Some have said in this thread SATA is better than m.2 with power filters etc. but what about without it? both types using the PC PSU?

 

 

 

[sandyk]

50 minutes ago, numlog said:

Some have said in this thread SATA is better than m.2 with power filters etc. but what about without it? both types using the PC PSU?

 

Motherboard power will almost certainly be noisier.

[numlog]

29 minutes ago, sandyk said:

 

Motherboard power will almost certainly be noisier.

than SATA power cable directly from PSU? 

so no way to know which technology is actually better for audio without external power for both which I assume no one has done yet?

 logically, for the reasons mentioned above it would be a suprise if it wasnt better (and the total cost to switch to m.2 would be less than 1 fancy SATA cable).

 

in the case of going to m.2 the old SSD could be used for music storage/playback too...  do you or anyone know if its better to have 2 drives for OS and music, pretending they are both identical, than everything on one?

 

Might try the M.2 drive to settle what the best form of storage is.

[sandyk]

10 hours ago, numlog said:

than SATA power cable directly from PSU?

 

 Yes !  The SQ from any drive is governed mainly by the quality of it's power supply .

 The best thing for the M.2 when used for Audio is likely to be a PCI.E to m.2 SSD PCB  that had a normal Molex Input for power. (assuming they are available ) as this would permit the use of a much cleaner power supply to the SSD.

[lmitche]

4 minutes ago, sandyk said:

 

 Yes !  The SQ from any drive is governed mainly by the quality of it's power supply .

 The best thing for the M.2 when used for Audio is likely to be a PCI.E to m.2 SSD PCB  that had a normal Molex Input for power. (assuming they are available ) as this would permit the use of a much cleaner power supply to the SSD.

Dont ignore optane SSDs. 

[Ralf11]

5 minutes ago, sandyk said:

 

 Yes !  The SQ from any drive is governed mainly by the quality of it's power supply .

 The best thing for the M.2 when used for Audio is likely to be a PCI.E to m.2 SSD PCB  that had a normal Molex Input for power. (assuming they are available ) as this would permit the use of a much cleaner power supply to the SSD.

 

is this based on your direct listening experience??

[sandyk]

3 minutes ago, lmitche said:

Dont ignore optane SSDs. 

 

The same still applies.

Optane SSDs are even less likely to be able to be used with a much cleaner power supply.

 Yes, they would be great for Processor intensive tasks such as 4K OR 8K video, but overkill for Audio.

[Iving]

2 hours ago, lmitche said:

Dont ignore optane SSDs. 

Correct

 

2 hours ago, sandyk said:

 

The same still applies.

Optane SSDs are even less likely to be able to be used with a much cleaner power supply.

 Yes, they would be great for Processor intensive tasks such as 4K OR 8K video, but overkill for Audio.

Incorrect

As posted before at CA and elsewhere, Optane PCIe AIC gives splendid results. I supply dedicated PCIe power from HDPLEX. No other drives required. All CPU/Avoids chipset.

[Quadman]

I just built a new PC server for someone who's goal is DSD512 upsampling with HQP and Roon.  I used AMD's 2700X Ryzen, Gigabytes X470 gaming 7 MB, and 58GB intel Optane M2 based OS drive.  Overall his build is very similar to my personal server, AMD's 1800X, gigabyte X370 gaming 7 MB, I use the 64 gb intel X25E SSD with Sotm Sata 2 filter and power it from an external LPSU as my OS drive.  Our ram is the same and our ATX power supplies are the same, the biggest difference is the OS drives.  I ran his PC into my T+A dac for appx 2 weeks, it was very impressive, then I shipped his PC off and went back to my PC same USB cable same digital path for both.  There are differences, subtle, I am sure if a non-audio friend came over and heard both back to back they wouldn't be aware of differences.  Being anal and in comparing mode for the past 2 years I was definitely aware of the differences but will say I enjoyed each servers presentation very much.

 

The optane M2SSD direct into the first M2 slot had perhaps a bit sharper leading edge, think square wave with a true 90 degree angle at the top and bottom, transients were very well defined, sharp without being harsh.  Startling in many ways.  Of course when this effect occurs you get the impression of increased pace and drive.  Bass was perhaps a bit cleaner, sharper leading edges, but maybe missing a bit of body and a touch of bloom.  Backgrounds were maybe a bit blacker, quieter.  Performers seemed a touch more separate but more individual meaning they seemed a touch less coherent as a group as a whole.  It was very involving and as I said I enjoyed listening to this set up a lot.

 

My old Intel SATA 2 SSD with external LPSU for power and a short 6" silver coboc stata cable seemed just a touch rounder on the leading edges, maybe a touch less sharp on transients, backgrounds maybe not quite as black but the body and palpable presence of the performers so real, so there, so human.  Very coherent performance.  Bass maybe a touch less tight but it had a touch more body and bloom, the resonance off a cello string is stunning.  I just cannot stop listening to this set up it is so human as I call it.  If I had to live with one server over the other I would choose mine with the sata 2 SSD.  Both systems have a very wide (beyond the speaker edges) deep (past my back wall), and high (above speakers) sound stage.  Both are very involving and as I started with, non-audiophiles would not hear the differences.

[numlog]

 

7 hours ago, Iving said:

Incorrect

As posted before at CA and elsewhere, Optane PCIe AIC gives splendid results. I supply dedicated PCIe power from HDPLEX. No other drives required. All CPU/Avoids chipset.

How do you supply PCIe power from the HDPLEX? do you mean with a molex, SATA etc. to the PCI card? I ask because looking at optane PCIe cards I dont see any power inputs on them and cant understand how you would easily power it.

Is the power usage much higher to support these high speeds?

[guiltyboxswapper]

Has anyone noticed much difference between running the NUC at 12v instead of 19v ?  Ideally with the same PSU if they're adjustable.

[Iving]

3 hours ago, numlog said:

 

How do you supply PCIe power from the HDPLEX? do you mean with a molex, SATA etc. to the PCI card? I ask because looking at optane PCIe cards I dont see any power inputs on them and cant understand how you would easily power it.

Is the power usage much higher to support these high speeds?

molex on mobo inc PCIe (I have 2 CPU-direct PCIe AICs - Intel Optane SSD 900P 280Gb AIC in CPU-direct slot PCIEX16_1 and Intel Converged Network Adapter X540-T2 in no-switch slot PCIEX16_3 )

I don't know about power usage/consumption for Optane PCIe AIC. It is a non-issue for me because I don't subscribe to low-power-religion/dogma in the PC/CPU. Optane PCIe AIC is one reason I don't have a NUC/AL (case size). Second reason is I hate USB/use RedNet/Dante and AL doesn't support Dante. Third reason is, whilst I'm very interested in Larry's experiments and views, I'm not sure that it's NUC per se that's accounting for your SQ advantages. Fourth reason is I am happy with what I've got and wouldn't upscale everything without some kind of paradigm shift.

I'm posting pictures so you can see the molex arrangement - and also that I manage mains noise from the front end via Isotek Titan with independent outlets feeding digits via small Topaz IT and analogue via larger Topaz IT. (And also downstream - I have a lot of Isotek in the whole system and find that through trial and error I can find an optimal permutation of isolation and shunts that gives me excellent results.)

 

[rickca]

21 minutes ago, Iving said:

molex on mobo inc PCIe

I still don't get it.  What molex on the motherboard?  Are you saying that your motherboard (which delivers power to the PCIe slots) is powered by your HDPLEX?  How is this supplying dedicated PCIe power from the HDPLEX?  Sorry if I'm just being dense.  I can't really tell what you're doing from the pictures alone.

[numlog]

11 minutes ago, Iving said:

molex on mobo inc PCIe (I have 2 CPU-direct PCIe AICs - Intel Optane SSD 900P 280Gb AIC in CPU-direct slot PCIEX16_1 and Intel Converged Network Adapter X540-T2 in no-switch slot PCIEX16_3 )

I don't know about power usage/consumption for Optane PCIe AIC. It is a non-issue for me because I don't subscribe to low-power-religion/dogma in the PC/CPU. Optane PCIe AIC is one reason I don't have a NUC/AL (case size). Second reason is I hate USB/use RedNet/Dante and AL doesn't support Dante. Third reason is, whilst I'm very interested in Larry's experiments and views, I'm not sure that it's NUC per se that's accounting for your SQ advantages. Fourth reason is I am happy with what I've got and wouldn't upscale everything without some kind of paradigm shift.

I'm posting pictures so you can see the molex arrangement - and also that I manage mains noise from the front end via Isotek Titan with independent outlets feeding digits via small Topaz IT and analogue via larger Topaz IT. (And also downstream - I have a lot of Isotek in the whole system and find that through trial and error I can find an optimal permutation of isolation and shunts that gives me excellent results.)

 

Nice, didnt know that PCI power input were a thing on some mobos.

[rickca]

On 1/15/2019 at 4:42 AM, numlog said:

it turns out that with a card adapter like this M.2 can be powered externally

How?

[numlog]

6 minutes ago, rickca said:

How?

by cutting PCIe power pin traces and soldering on an external supply, a sloppy solution but it works. just after finding that this guy found another way. this one doesnt require modding but uses 5V external power when M.2 are powered with 3.3V( probably for the same reason the adapter uses 12V from PCIe slot, because PC 3.3V rail is expected to be dirty), with probably a DC-DC converter onboard to drop it down, so Id still prefer modify the adapter and use my own 3.3V supply.

[Lebouwsky]

10 hours ago, Quadman said:

My old Intel SATA 2 SSD with external LPSU for power and a short 6" silver coboc stata cable seemed just a touch rounder on the leading edges.

Based on Roy’s comments I also use an old Intel sata2 ssd and it decreases the edge a little bit. I recommand you to try the Sotm sata2 filter and the pachanko sata cable for significant decrease in that same area.