A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming

[misterspense]

1 hour ago, austinpop said:

 

This was a quick test we ran, when I came to drop off Eric's SR-7. I brought my new i7 NUC with me so we could have a quick listen.

 

If you read my NUC impressions, I've made the point repeatedly that the NUC over the SE was a subtle improvement, which I heard in my system, only with my Dell running AL as the server, and a TLS OCXO switch in the path.

 

In Eric's system, we didn't have a reclocked switch in the path, and we ran the NUC from the bridged port of the SE running Roon Core with the 1.4.0 firmware.

 

In this configuration, the difference was indeed small. However, the key finding, that Eric agreed with, was that we were achieving essentially similar level of SQ on his system with a NUC costing 10% of his SE.

 

Finally, don't discount the benefit of the Tranquility Base. Whatever that thing does, it makes a positive impact on SQ. We've done an experiment in the past where we stacked up all his spaghetti in a neat wertical sandwich, and moved it on and off the Base. Damned if it didn't sound better.

Aren't you trying to cover up the blind listening test, in which you pointed the Zenith SE as better sounding compared to the NUC?

[ted_b]

On 11/20/2018 at 6:24 PM, Johnseye said:

I asked Jussi @Miska to add ramroot to his bootable HQPlayer NAA and he quickly put it in his build.

 

https://www.signalyst.eu/bins/naa/images/

naa-3552-x64.7z 

I like what I'm hearing.  I've only listened to a couple songs at first listen it's similar if not the same as what I hear with Audiolinux headless running HQPlayer NAA.

As soon as I get my new home's audio room built I plan on having Larry build me a NUC for HQPlayer NAA (I already have a powerful upsampling server, currently running Win10 but likely running whatever you guys tell me, aka AL ramboot; Note: I ran HQPlayer embedded and started that thread in my past life, but then went back to single pc Windows for whatever reason).  But, I'd like to ask those of you (johnseye, elan120, Em2016, etc) who are instead running Jussi's own bootable Linux ramroot NAA image (and comparing it favorably) two things:

1) would my endpoint NUC decision be any different if I focused on Jussi's bootable ramroot NAA image instead of AL (i.e smaller, larger, different RAM, etc) as my goal;

2) what are you folks running as an upsampler machine, and how connected to the ramroot-NAA? 

Thx

Ted

[austinpop]

5 minutes ago, misterspense said:

Aren't you trying to cover up the blind listening test, in which you pointed the Zenith SE as better sounding compared to the NUC?

 

Not covering up at all. Just pointing out what was different about the setup. Yes, I picked the SE in a blind test on this setup.

 

I believe I've been consistent about the quality of the SE. It takes a lot to sound better than it, even with NUCs. Here's just one example of what I've written about it:

 

20 hours ago, austinpop said:

Like I said - SE owners should really not be falling prey to FOMO (fear of missing out)! People who are getting the OMG experience with NUCs didn't start with an SE.  

 

 

[lmitche]

5 minutes ago, ted_b said:

As soon as I get my new home's audio room built I plan on having Larry build me a NUC for HQPlayer NAA (I already have a powerful upsampling server, currently running Win10 but likely running whatever you guys tell me, aka AL ramboot; Note: I ran HQPlayer embedded and started that thread in my past life, but then went back to single pc Windows for whatever reason).  But, I'd like to ask those of you (johnseye, elan120, Em2016, etc) who are instead running Jussi's own bootable Linux ramroot NAA image (and comparing it favorably) two things:

1) would my endpoint NUC decision be any different if I focused on Jussi's bootable ramroot NAA image instead of AL (i.e smaller, larger, different RAM, etc) as my goal;

2) what are you folks running as an upsampler machine, and how connected to the ramroot-NAA? 

Thx

Ted

Ted,

 

While not a direct answer, with boot from the USB stick, it is trivial to try various boot images, so it will be easy for you try to various settings. In a similar way, changing the player software on the server is also very straightforward within Audiolinux.

[ted_b]

2 minutes ago, lmitche said:

Ted,

 

While not a direct answer, with boot from the USB stick, it is trivial to try various boot images, so it will be easy for you try to various settings. In a similar way, changing the player software on the server is also very straightforward within Audiolinux.

Larry,

Thanks.  When I was dabbling in HQPlayer embedded I understood the USB boot flexibility.  My real question was, given that HQPlayer will be the player, and that a NUC will be the endpoint, whether this table stake affects NUC choices (Celeron, Pentium, i7, etc) and choices within the NUC architecture (RAM, etc).  I'd hate to have you build a NUC based on what sounds best for Roon endpoints, for example.

 

My other question is about the server OS and whether I should change not only the OS (Windows vs Linux) but possibly the hardware.  In either case I don't expect the server to be in the room with me (assuming we settle on a 2 box solution with NAA Linux-flavored) and can be open to Al ramroot'd monster-NUC (oxymoron) server if necessary.  I plan to continue to do NOS-based dac seeing up to DSD512 via HQPlayer.

 

[elan120]

20 minutes ago, ted_b said:

As soon as I get my new home's audio room built I plan on having Larry build me a NUC for HQPlayer NAA (I already have a powerful upsampling server, currently running Win10 but likely running whatever you guys tell me, aka AL ramboot; Note: I ran HQPlayer embedded and started that thread in my past life, but then went back to single pc Windows for whatever reason).  But, I'd like to ask those of you (johnseye, elan120, Em2016, etc) who are instead running Jussi's own bootable Linux ramroot NAA image (and comparing it favorably) two things:

1) would my endpoint NUC decision be any different if I focused on Jussi's bootable ramroot NAA image instead of AL (i.e smaller, larger, different RAM, etc) as my goal;

2) what are you folks running as an upsampler machine, and how connected to the ramroot-NAA? 

Thx

Ted

Ted,

 

1)  Using NUC build by Larry with standard spec'ed for Roon bridging, you can test Roon bridging and HQP NAA setup in AL image as well as Jussi's ramroot NAA image with the same hardware.

 

2)  My current updampler is a Windows PC I recently build running DSD512 non-2s filters (mostly poly-sinc-xtr), and connected to ramroot NAA first via wifi, later bridged, and now bridged with a OCXO clocked ZyXEL switch.

 

Hope this is clear enough to your 2 Q's

[jean-michel6]

4 hours ago, limniscate said:

Correct 

Wow , I am impressed by this result . This new firmware must be something  to make the innuos se (server-player) prefered to a dual pc set up ( innuos - NUC )

 

I think it will be important to confirm these results .

[limniscate]

16 minutes ago, jean-michel6 said:

Wow , I am impressed by this result . This new firmware must be something  to make the innuos se (server-player) prefered to a dual pc set up ( innuos - NUC )

 

I think it will be important to confirm these results .

We haven't tested the new firmware yet. 

[ted_b]

1 hour ago, elan120 said:

Ted,

 

1)  Using NUC build by Larry with standard spec'ed for Roon bridging, you can test Roon bridging and HQP NAA setup in AL image as well as Jussi's ramroot NAA image with the same hardware.

 

2)  My current updampler is a Windows PC I recently build running DSD512 non-2s filters (mostly poly-sinc-xtr), and connected to ramroot NAA first via wifi, later bridged, and now bridged with a OCXO clocked ZyXEL switch.

 

Hope this is clear enough to your 2 Q's

Very clear!  Thanks!

 

I may indeed opt for the largest endpoint NUC Larry recommends, assuming no SQ hit, since we don't know what additional renderer requirements are coming down the road (nothing too cpu intensive likely, otherwise defeats the purpose of isolated renderer...but who knows).

[sig8]

1 hour ago, ted_b said:

Larry,

Thanks.  When I was dabbling in HQPlayer embedded I understood the USB boot flexibility.  My real question was, given that HQPlayer will be the player, and that a NUC will be the endpoint, whether this table stake affects NUC choices (Celeron, Pentium, i7, etc) and choices within the NUC architecture (RAM, etc).  I'd hate to have you build a NUC based on what sounds best for Roon endpoints, for example.

 

My other question is about the server OS and whether I should change not only the OS (Windows vs Linux) but possibly the hardware.  In either case I don't expect the server to be in the room with me (assuming we settle on a 2 box solution with NAA Linux-flavored) and can be open to Al ramroot'd monster-NUC (oxymoron) server if necessary.  I plan to continue to do NOS-based dac seeing up to DSD512 via HQPlayer.

 

I am running RAMroot AL on an i7 machine with HQPe , and +4,000 album JRiver managed library as control, based on your other thread, no problems. Also tried AL headless NAA on Celeron based PC. NUC to come shortly to be used as NAA.

[Advieira]

2 hours ago, Advieira said:

Have someone compared ou can compare the followings chains?

 

mac mini (roon core) > nuc AL (roon endpoint) > Dac

 

nuc AL (core) > nuc AL (endpoint) > Dac

☝️

[tapatrick]

9 hours ago, Middy said:

Turning off unwanted features in bios

 

which ones did you turn off @Middy

[Advieira]

5 hours ago, austinpop said:

 

This was a quick test we ran, when I came to drop off Eric's SR-7. I brought my new i7 NUC with me so we could have a quick listen.

 

If you read my NUC impressions, I've made the point repeatedly that the NUC over the SE was a subtle improvement, which I heard in my system, only with my Dell running AL as the server, and a TLS OCXO switch in the path.

 

In Eric's system, we didn't have a reclocked switch in the path, and we ran the NUC from the bridged port of the SE running Roon Core with the 1.4.0 firmware.

 

In this configuration, the difference was indeed small. However, the key finding, that Eric agreed with, was that we were achieving essentially similar level of SQ on his system with a NUC costing 10% of his SE.

 

Finally, don't discount the benefit of the Tranquility Base. Whatever that thing does, it makes a positive impact on SQ. We've done an experiment in the past where we stacked up all his spaghetti in a neat wertical sandwich, and moved it on and off the Base. Damned if it didn't sound better.

 

How is the topology of your system today?

[Miska]

22 hours ago, Em2016 said:

That's why I made a request for @Miska to one create a bootable image for the Rendu's - it's a lot of work though I guess.

 

It is actually not very hard, thanks to (at least uRendu) being hardware-wise similar to CuBox-i.

 

I just uploaded updated image for CuBox-i and µRendu, tested briefly on µRendu too and for me it is working fine. No web interface or such though.

 

[Middy]

@tapatrick

All but wifi and  No speed step.

I reduced my GFX memory but iam using Serial? Blue connector on an old monitor not HDMI. There are 6 usb listed but 4 ports?

 

I should get my memory for the i3 NUC tommorow.  If i get a chance i will swap out the 2 gig installed.

It came from ebay with Kodi i think media player. I hope when i buy AL i dont have to buy another Key for win or Win server. I am still lost on what to do...the  very very basics.

 

Never connected 2 PCs, hopefully just an Ethernet cable will do.

I wont attach internet router just transfer my small.music collection from usb memory onto hd.

I am trialling ROON atm very nice and polished.

My current goal is:

AL on celeron end point

AL on i3 for roon core

2 memory sticks.

Hopefully i can set up( haha)..try normal AL version and use roon to act as headless remote. Not headless AL.

This to me seems complicated enough.

If i stay on roon (trial) and figure out basics i can go from there next year.

HQP, uptone switch, more power add ons ect.

I have loads of basic questions really basic stuff i wont ask now.  I got daphile working once by luck too give  you an idea how bad i am....

Linux dyslexia posts above are beyond me yet. Id have to fly to Italy and kidnap someone... 

Or Miska.. just need to find chloroform on Ebay..??

 

 

 

[asdf1000]

53 minutes ago, Miska said:

 

It is actually not very hard, thanks to (at least uRendu) being hardware-wise similar to CuBox-i.

 

I just uploaded updated image for CuBox-i and µRendu, tested briefly on µRendu too and for me it is working fine. No web interface or such though.

 

 

Wow! Thanks Jussi !

[ted_b]

2 hours ago, sig8 said:

I am running RAMroot AL on an i7 machine with HQPe , and +4,000 album JRiver managed library as control, based on your other thread, no problems. Also tried AL headless NAA on Celeron based PC. NUC to come shortly to be used as NAA.

Ashok,

I will email you since most of what I need to ask is OT.  Thx!

[Confused]

1 hour ago, Miska said:

 

It is actually not very hard, thanks to (at least uRendu) being hardware-wise similar to CuBox-i.

 

I just uploaded updated image for CuBox-i and µRendu, tested briefly on µRendu too and for me it is working fine. No web interface or such though.

 

Thanks for this, very interesting.  Is there any possibility that this would work on a sMS-200?  Although I do also have a microRendu, so can at least try that when I get some time.

[kelvinwsy]

12 hours ago, MrUnderhill said:

Hi Kelvin,

 

Interesting.

 

From my POV I have generally worked hard NOT to use a PC/Server in my immediate HiFi environment. One advantage of the NUC is that I can power it from a LPSU, which is what I do. Wherever I can I remove SMPS.

 

I have found that increasing the amount of current available to NORMALLY be an advantage, but not always.

 

Like you I have found addressing ripple to be an advantage, and so make use of LT3045s.

 

I would emphasis that this is NOT within a PC/Server such as you are using. I think this would be an interesting series of experiments and observations, although not, perhaps, for this thread?

 

 

 

 

Well LPSUs are powering my OS SSD and my 1 TB Music only SSD. 2 units of 5V LT3045 2 amp battery powered PSU's on the way. to replace these LPSU's.

Yeh powering a PC with LPSU or 3045 or even custom hi spec LPSU is difficult

I had a mis adventure with a custom 820watt Teradak LPSU for powering the entire PC. It got destroyed in transit. Teradak took 1.5 months to refund me. Big after taste in my mouth. I will replace the 2 cheapo Chinese LPSU's powering my Win Server 2016 Core mode OS SSD and the pure music 1TB SSD. and retest for SQ.

 

My 6700k / Sotm SM200Ultra Neo system sounds great.

Once it arrives next week, I am trying with 8550u fanless minipc to run Jussi's bootable NAA rambootable image.

 

If it sounds good. maybe AL Ixqt?? running HQPlayer Embedded (linux) may be next. on the 6700k PC.

 

If this works even better than maybe I upgrade the 8550u to server PC status (i have a 64gb M2 Sata and 16gb installed just in case) and i will get another NUC as a endpoint, 

 

Wow! 2 complete systems one with Upsampling Power and the other playing Native Resolution.....

Pity my iFi idsd BL plays DSD 256 and 512 great. 

 

May hv to get another DAC ... No problem Chinese DAC's are priced from200 USD all the way to 4000. 

 

This hobby is fun isn't. ]

Hope everyone keeps good humour as SQ opinions are subjective and system dependent ( AND Volume level determinate). 

I read many comments and arguments being traded when no one can really explain our subjective SQ observations which are always system dependent.....

 

HiFi is a HOBBY Isn't it . Supposed to be FUN?

 

Happy and Peaceful listening everyone.

Kelvin

[asdf1000]

8 hours ago, Miska said:

 

It is actually not very hard, thanks to (at least uRendu) being hardware-wise similar to CuBox-i.

 

I just uploaded updated image for CuBox-i and µRendu, tested briefly on µRendu too and for me it is working fine. No web interface or such though.

 

 

Installed and working brilliantly. Seems to sound a little better too.. for HQP NAA, I think your image on the Rendu is as good as it gets (to my ears, my experience only)...

 

Remember the saga we had a long time ago with the below track at DSD512... just tested it with your Rendu NAA image (just to double check) and all is crystal clear! ?

 

Is this Rendu image also ramroot? Not that I really care for SQ reasons but it should make pulling power on the Rendu out a bit safer if i need to poweroff, if nothing is being written to the Rendu's SD card?

 

Thanks again for this! You need to be inducted into the Computer Hi-Fi/Head-Fi Hall of Fame ! 

 

[Narcissus]

14 hours ago, lmitche said:

It would be great if you guys could hear the NUC on speakers known for accurate imaging like Wilson's or Focals . . .  To my ears, so much of the NUC sound is about the space it creates. I am not sure you can hear this from headphones or planar speakers.

Very true Larry, I’m a Focal Utopia fanboy myself ?

[MrUnderhill]

3 hours ago, kelvinwsy said:

This hobby is fun isn't. ]

 

Hope everyone keeps good humour

 

I read many comments and arguments being traded when no one can really explain our subjective SQ observations which are always system dependent.....

 

HiFi is a HOBBY Isn't it . Supposed to be FUN?

 

Happy and Peaceful listening everyone.

Kelvin

Hi Kelvin,

 

Not sure about fun, feels more frustrating at times, especially when things appear to be two steps forward and one step back. Listening to music is certainly fun.

 

I think that a lot of the variation that is heard can simply be placed at the door of context. This is why i think laying out how ones system is built is pretty essential to TRYING to come to a common understanding; as you say, system dependent.

 

M

 

[Miska]

3 hours ago, Em2016 said:

Is this Rendu image also ramroot? Not that I really care for SQ reasons but it should make pulling power on the Rendu out a bit safer if i need to poweroff, if nothing is being written to the Rendu's SD card?

 

No, it is not. Usually these devices have so little RAM that I don't see a point in wasting large percentage of it to hold the image. Most of the image content are things like device firmwares and drivers for WiFi interfaces and such. It would be holding a lot of things in RAM that end up being never used. On a PC it is less problem to hold 600+ MB of unused data in RAM.

 

[asdf1000]

1 minute ago, Miska said:

 

No, it is not. Usually these devices have so little RAM that I don't see a point in wasting large percentage of it to hold the image. Most of the image content are things like device firmwares and drivers for WiFi interfaces and such. It would be holding a lot of things in RAM that end up being never used. On a PC it is less problem to hold 600+ MB of unused data in RAM.

 

 

No problem.

 

Nothing is being written to the SD card, right? So like your other non-ramroot NAA bootable images, there's no issues in pulling the power of the Rendu right?

 

There is no safe way to shutdown anyway (no power on/off button) so I guess there's no choice but to just yank the power cable.

 

[Miska]

1 minute ago, Em2016 said:

Nothing is being written to the SD card, right? So like your other non-ramroot NAA bootable images, there's no issues in pulling the power of the Rendu right?

 

There is no safe way to shutdown anyway (no power on/off button) so I guess there's no choice but to just yank the power cable.

 

Nothing much, the OS itself may write some small amounts of runtime information, but nothing critical. It is journaling filesystem so if you pull the plug it will fix up unfinished things on next boot up. And if it ever goes bad for what ever reason, you can just dump the image on card again and that's it.