A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming

[greenleo]

50 minutes ago, MrUnderhill said:

 

I would say this is the sort of split I get.

Thank you, M.

[BigAlMc]

9 hours ago, greenleo said:

In terms of SQ, I wonder the contribution of the endpoint to the server in a dual box setup.  Say

 

Endpoint       Server

80%.               20%

 

Ha!

 

NUC7CJYH & 8GB ram endpoint - £200

 

NUC7i7DNBE & 32G ram & 1TB SSD server - £850

 

Go figure! Is this the 80/20 rule in reverse? ?

 

Cheers,

Alan

[MrUnderhill]

38 minutes ago, the_doc735 said:

straight from tablet to valve amps? Is your tablet also acting as the DAC please?

Hi Doc,

 

No. The tablet has an Android App called Squeezer. This is on my WiFi and I use it to interact with my LMS/AL server and select a playlist for sending to my Squeezelite NUC/AL.

 

My music is on four 512GB USB sticks hosted on a USB3.0 hub that is attached to my LMS/AL server.

 

The Squeezelite NUC/AL attached to a SingXer-F1 DDC that converts the USB stream to SPDIF and that feeds into my AudioNote DAC.

[the_doc735]

31 minutes ago, MrUnderhill said:

Hi Doc,

 

No. The tablet has an Android App called Squeezer. This is on my WiFi and I use it to interact with my LMS/AL server and select a playlist for sending to my Squeezelite NUC/AL.

 

My music is on four 512GB USB sticks hosted on a USB3.0 hub that is attached to my LMS/AL server.

 

The Squeezelite NUC/AL attached to a SingXer-F1 DDC that converts the USB stream to SPDIF and that feeds into my AudioNote DAC.

hi mr.

 

many thanks! ~ I didn't think it could be just a tablet & amp! LOL!

[greenleo]

1 hour ago, BigAlMc said:

 

Ha!

 

NUC7CJYH & 8GB ram endpoint - £200

 

NUC7i7DNBE & 32G ram & 1TB SSD server - £850

 

Go figure! Is this the 80/20 rule in reverse? ?

 

Cheers,

Alan

Hi Mac,

 

Thank you for your reply.  The endpoint is the PC connected to the DAC.  This PC is the audio PC.  The server is the PC that send files to the end-point, upsampling, doing all sorts of heavy duty job.  This PC is the control PC.

 

The 80/20 was an example, not the real figure.  The actual figure should be the CAer's opinion.  I'm collecting stats to see if anything meaningful may be extracted.

 

[BigAlMc]

23 minutes ago, greenleo said:

The 80/20 was an example, not the real figure.  The actual figure should be the CAer's opinion.  I'm collecting stats to see if anything meaningful may be extracted.

 

Hi Greenleo,

 

Understood but I was just commenting on the irony that the endpoint NUC which can be built more cheaply is likely to contribute the lions share to SQ.

 

Whereas if users want to go fully NUC with both an AL endpoint and an AL server, the server is likely to cost a lot more but make a far smaller contribution to SQ.

 

Pretty ironic but I get there are no absolutes and its approximate figures.

[greenleo]

14 minutes ago, BigAlMc said:

 

Hi Greenleo,

 

Understood but I was just commenting on the irony that the endpoint NUC which can be built more cheaply is likely to contribute the lions share to SQ.

 

Whereas if users want to go fully NUC with both an AL endpoint and an AL server, the server is likely to cost a lot more but make a far smaller contribution to SQ.

 

Pretty ironic but I get there are no absolutes and its approximate figures.

Thank you Alan.  

 

I agree that it's ironic.  One the otherhand that's Roy's claim that the endpoint contributes more to the SQ.  Now M claim this as well.  I certainly trust Roy's and M's claim and would like to see if this claim is an unversial experience.  If yes, may be there are strategy for some of us.  For me, I only use HQP to the NAA with no upsampling at all.  May be I can use the NUC7CJYH as a server with local storage attached.  Clearly this setup is application dependent and I doubt the 7CJYH is suitable as a ROON Core.

 

Anyway, with more stats, may be more novel idea can be conceived as well.    

[mourip]

3 hours ago, MrUnderhill said:

 

I would say this is the sort of split I get.

 

I am not sure what numbers I would put for this but can verify that it makes a difference. I recently set up my Roon Core(server) as a separate box. I am running Win10Pro because I have a license for it and I wanted familiar access to the box. After using it for a few days I installed Audiophile Optimizer as I usually do on my Windows audio boxes. It made an obvious and positive difference and this box is not even inside the "clean" side of my system.

 

I should clarify for the sake of an additional data point that my Core is an HDPlex fanless case with a Gigabyte m-ITX board, 8 gigs of ram and two SSDs. Run with HDPlex LPS. I only play up to 24/192 due to my DAC.

[BigAlMc]

7 minutes ago, greenleo said:

Thank you Alan.  

 

I agree that it's ironic.  One the otherhand that's Roy's claim that the endpoint contributes more to the SQ.  Now M claim this as well.  I certainly trust Roy's and M's claim and would like to see if this claim is an unversial experience.  If yes, may be there are strategy for some of us.  For me, I only use HQP to the NAA with no upsampling at all.  May be I can use the NUC7CJYH as a server with local storage attached.  Clearly this setup is application dependent and I doubt the 7CJYH is suitable as a ROON Core.

 

Anyway, with more stats, may be more novel idea can be conceived as well.    

 

Oh I'm not disputing the finding and agree that the ratio is probably largely correct.

 

I'm a Roon user and for me the server to endpoint model makes a lot of sense.

 

But I'm going to build the NUC server as well in order to better compare the NUC AL versus my Zenith SE so the comparative cost of the server is interesting given the 20% impact on SQ.

[Solstice380]

On 12/2/2018 at 1:06 PM, lmitche said:

Rick,

 

While I may have been the last kid to the party, I first heard about the headless ramboot version of AL from Piero in mid September. The full SQ impact of what we are now hearing wasn't available, at least to me, until then.

 

So I'd argue this is a recent solution.

 

Larry

 

We (some) have been using @Miska ‘s Linux NAA images for a few years.  Pretty sure those are similarly optimized.  Not sure, though, if those images have all necessary components to be used as a server OS directly.

[Solstice380]

On 12/2/2018 at 2:38 PM, afrancois said:

I'm always amazed how far behind the BIOS versions are upon delivery. 

 

I’m always amazed that the damn BIOS isn’t complete when the computer is released!

[Solstice380]

On 12/2/2018 at 9:49 PM, lmitche said:

No, I don't have a graphics card.

 

I have a 6700K with a new RTX2080 GPU and it does non -2s filters at 30% CPU and 70% GPU.  Server, of course, to a NUC WITH Jussi’s NAA image. 

[davide256]

4 hours ago, tapatrick said:

BUYER BEWARE, it's not all good news.

 

Steady on ?. The NUC/AL route may not be for everyone and it’s unfortunate that a few have hit a problem but there is a lot of very good news.

 

For the record I am running 7PJYH plus a CJYH with no problems so far. Last night I was listening to music and I said to my wife - this is perfect sound quality and she agreed having watched me fuss over cables, boxes, circuits, batteries etc for years. Something I never Imagined I’d say. 

 

I will coomrnt more fully in a few days. 

I have a 7PJYH arriving today... is there an issue with updating BIOS?

[lmitche]

53 minutes ago, Solstice380 said:

 

I’m always amazed that the damn BIOS isn’t complete when the computer is released!

Happily I have never bricked a NUC, but I do remember making this post on September 20th. Things are not getting better.

 

 

Mostly, it is the unexpected stuff that makes this hard. The NUC bios is pretty awful,. I haven't seen anything this bad since early days of the consumer motherboard business. You can get things to work, but it takes persistence to deal with the inconsistent behavior.

[lmitche]

14 minutes ago, davide256 said:

I have a 7PJYH arriving today... is there an issue with updating BIOS?

Take a look here:

 

https://communities.intel.com/community/tech/nuc/content?filterID=contentstatus[published]~category[04-nuc7cjyh-nuc7pjyh-nuc7cjysal]

 

Having read this, I'm upgrading the Pentium NUCs to the latest bios with no problems. Luckily, I have never touched the video parameters creating the bricked NUCs mentioned above.

[soares]

7 hours ago, austinpop said:

 

Peter, I think you've got that backward. Our nomenclature is:

• Endpoint that you call the Audio Playing PC
  • Runs the music player like Roon Bridge or squeezelite that:
    • connects to the DAC or DDC via USB
    • connects to the music server via Ethernet
• Server, is that a Control PC in your world?
  • runs the music server (like Roon or LMS) that does
    • library management
    • serves music files from local storage or network storage
    • connects to endpoint over network.

Just to be clear, the NUC as an End Point is a sort of uR where the AL runs in memory? Sorry for ant misunderstanding.

[LTG2010]

19 minutes ago, soares said:

Just to be clear, the NUC as an End Point is a sort of uR where the AL runs in memory? Sorry for ant misunderstanding.

Exactly that.

[afrancois]

14 hours ago, austinpop said:

 

I ordered mine from Newegg. But looks like they're out of stock already.

What memory did you buy?

 

I'm thinking about http://www.crucial.com/usa/en/nuc7i7dnhe/CT12174270

 

[k-man]

@lmitche @romaz @austinpop

 

Guys, I would love to see a homepage article on this NUC venture. CAPS and Geek speak articles don’t come by often, and I reckon this will fit in well (that’s if anyone does care to write the whole thing)

 

@The Computer Audiophile Your thoughts?

[LTG2010]

1 hour ago, davide256 said:

I have a 7PJYH arriving today... is there an issue with updating BIOS?

Mine updated fine, but I also never touched the aperature settings. One thing of note is that the bios resolution is 1280x800 (or near abouts) your monitor needs to support lower resolutions otherwise there's a blank screen. I had to use a tv.

[Cornan]

53 minutes ago, soares said:

Just to be clear, the NUC as an End Point is a sort of uR where the AL runs in memory? Sorry for ant misunderstanding.

*LOL* It’s complicated! It might be a good idea for @austinpop to update the facts on the index with universial names when these terms are crystal clear.

 

In my world you have these:

 

1. Control point= The control device that is controling the music and telling the server what to play.

2. Server= The manager that is receiving the info from the control point and distribute the music to the render. This can either contain or be connected to a harddrive of any kind (local files) or a router (Tidal/Qubuz/NAS etc) both through wires or wifi.

3. Render= The endpoint where the upnp/dnla data is translated into music and forward to DAC in digital format.

 

There is upnp/dnla and Openhome streaming. With Openhome (wich us upnp/dnla compliant) the playlist is stored at the control point. With upnp/dnla the playlist is stored at the server. IMO Openhome sounds better! ?

 

 

[rickca]

15 minutes ago, Cornan said:

There is upnp/dnla and Openhome streaming. With Openhome (wich us upnp/dnla compliant) the playlist is stored at the control point. With upnp/dnla the playlist is stored at the server.

Actually, it's the other way around.

http://wiki.openhome.org/wiki/OhMedia

[greenleo]

2 hours ago, Solstice380 said:

 

We (some) have been using @Miska ‘s Linux NAA images for a few years.  Pretty sure those are similarly optimized.  Not sure, though, if those images have all necessary components to be used as a server OS directly.

Any command for this NAA?  For AL, I may choose the extreme mode and standard mode.

[Cornan]

5 minutes ago, rickca said:

Actually, it's the other way around.

http://wiki.openhome.org/wiki/OhMedia

 

Not quite. With Openhome the playlist is stored at the render. My bad though 

[greenleo]

1 hour ago, davide256 said:

I have a 7PJYH arriving today... is there an issue with updating BIOS?

Why update it if the stock is already working?  Check tapatrick's excellent post that has image of the UEFI setting of the 7CJYH.  I expect 7PJYH would be similar.