A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming

[asdf1000]

But to repeat the obvious... if one is happy with poly-sinc-lp/mp-2s at DSD512 (like I am) the NUC7i7DNhE in an Akasa fanless case is great..

 

The challenge to conquer xtr at DSD512 is where things become more expensive...

[lmitche]

2 minutes ago, Whitigir said:

I7-8700K can barely do XTR-2S into DSD512.  Let alone any weak CPU.  Non-2S XTR is defintely too much for I7-8700K

My i7-6700k has no problem with xtr-2s at dsd512 with hqplayer desktop. It hardly breaks a sweat. It will also do xtr non-2s at Dsd256 but the heat builds up for sure.

[asdf1000]

Side note... I tried AL on my NUC7I7DNHE running HQPe and RoonServer. Heard absolutely no differrence with stock Debian Stretch, playing to my Rendu NAA so I went back to Debian so that I can do other things.

 

I’ve also tried AL as NAA endpoint on my NUC and Jussi recommended Up Board Gateway and thought both sounded a bit brighter than my Rendu, causing slight listening fatigue over longer listening sessions...

 

An ISO REGEN + LPS-1.2 on the output (like Larry prefers) would probably help the NUC and UpBoard Gateway.

[asdf1000]

2 minutes ago, lmitche said:

My i7-6700k has no problem with xtr-2s at dsd512 with hqplayer desktop.

 

CUDA offloading helping?

[rickca]

2 hours ago, mourip said:

 

Also, and you may already know this, you need to use a separately configured USB stick for each PC. You cannot use one drive to boot multiple machines to ramboot as there is information that will be unique to each machine even if they have exactly the same hardware...

Thanks for the reminder.  I have a question.  I don't have my NUC yet, but I can boot up AL headless on my Macbook Pro.

 

If I make some changes like updating packages, installing software etc on the Macbook Pro, will it work OK on the NUC?  If so, I can get a head start on customizing AL.  When you do yaourt -Syua does what happens depend on the hardware environment?  

 

So does this thing about using a separately configured USB stick for each PC apply only if you ramboot ... or only if you want to run both machines at the same time?

 

Hope my question is clear.

[asdf1000]

45 minutes ago, Whitigir said:

I7-8700K can barely do XTR-2S into DSD512.  Let alone any weak CPU.  Non-2S XTR is defintely too much for I7-8700K

 

Silly me, I should know better.

 

The sonicTransporter i7 has an i7-7700 (non-K) and does xtr-2s DSD512 fine (HQP Embedded), running Roon Server at the same time. No CUDA offloading.

 

I bought one for the old man (dad) and forgot about that. That’s a great buy for people not wanting to fuss around with Linux command lines. I think they (SGC) can now build a fanless i7-8700K too on request..

[lmitche]

13 minutes ago, Em2016 said:

 

CUDA offloading helping?

No, I don't have a graphics card.

[asdf1000]

4 minutes ago, lmitche said:

No, I don't have a graphics card.

 

Yeh see post just above - I know from experience the i7-7700 (non K) is also capable without graphics card also. So not surprised by your i7-6700K.

[lmitche]

33 minutes ago, Em2016 said:

Side note... I tried AL on my NUC7I7DNHE running HQPe and RoonServer. Heard absolutely no differrence with stock Debian Stretch, playing to my Rendu NAA so I went back to Debian so that I can do other things.

 

I’ve also tried AL as NAA endpoint on my NUC and Jussi recommended Up Board Gateway and thought both sounded a bit brighter than my Rendu, causing slight listening fatigue over longer listening sessions...

 

An ISO REGEN + LPS-1.2 on the output (like Larry prefers) would probably help the NUC and UpBoard Gateway.

What power supplies are you using for your two NUCs?

[asdf1000]

4 minutes ago, lmitche said:

What power supplies are you using for your two NUCs?

 

LPS-1.2 was ok for the NUC (and Up Board Gateway) as NAA... still a tad brighter than the Rendu + LPS-1.2 for my ears (over longer listening sessions) 

 

I used a battery to power the NUC running HQPe + RoonServer... No difference to my ears, to using it's stock SMPS though when it's running as a networked server (through NetGear GS108 with JS's grounding trick).

 

 

[lmitche]

8 minutes ago, Em2016 said:

 

LPS-1.2 was ok for the NUC (and Up Board Gateway) as NAA...

 

I used a battery to power the NUC running HQPe + RoonServer...

 

Interesting, thanks.

[lmitche]

49 minutes ago, Em2016 said:

Side note... I tried AL on my NUC7I7DNHE running HQPe and RoonServer. Heard absolutely no differrence with stock Debian Stretch, playing to my Rendu NAA so I went back to Debian so that I can do other things.

 

I’ve also tried AL as NAA endpoint on my NUC and Jussi recommended Up Board Gateway and thought both sounded a bit brighter than my Rendu, causing slight listening fatigue over longer listening sessions...

 

An ISO REGEN + LPS-1.2 on the output (like Larry prefers) would probably help the NUC and UpBoard Gateway.

Did you try bitperfect playback with Roonbridge? You have an ifi DAC right?

[mourip]

38 minutes ago, rickca said:

Thanks for the reminder.  I have a question.  I don't have my NUC yet, but I can boot up AL headless on my Macbook Pro.

 

If I make some changes like updating packages, installing software etc on the Macbook Pro, will it work OK on the NUC?  If so, I can get a head start on customizing AL.  When you do yaourt -Syua does what happens depend on the hardware environment?  

 

So does this thing about using a separately configured USB stick for each PC apply only if you ramboot ... or only if you want to run both machines at the same time?

 

Hope my question is clear.

My experience is mainly during the last two weeks laboring over getting two Bridges to coexist in headless mode, not even using ramroot until I got it fixed. The issues were basically specific to Roon which creates a unique identifier for each new install. 

 

If I had to guess I would say that at best it might not work well due to hardware differences and at worst it will trash your initial effort causing you to start from scratch anyway.

 

Hopefully Piero will weigh in. If not, I would just email him. He is very responsive...

[asdf1000]

9 minutes ago, lmitche said:

Did you try bitperfect playback with Roonbridge? You have an ifi DAC right?

 

Yeh, tried bitperfect but much prefer HQPe... iFi Pro iDSD.

 

Same difference anyway - at the server end, no difference (to my ears) between AL and stock Debian and no difference between bitperfect (low CPU loading) and HQPe up-sampling (very high CPU loading).

 

At the NAA end, a slight difference but prefer the Rendu over longer listening sessions (slightly less fatiguing).

 

[asdf1000]

@Superdad now that you have the LarryNUC, can we get eye pattern measurements of the LarryNUC/AL compared with your microRendu?

 

If you haven't already (quietly in the background) I'm sure you and John S would be keen to see what may be happening with these observations... 

 

 

 

[austinpop]

38 minutes ago, Em2016 said:

 

Yeh, tried bitperfect but much prefer HQPe... iFi Pro iDSD.

 

Same difference anyway - at the server end, no difference (to my ears) between AL and stock Debian and no difference between bitperfect (low CPU loading) and HQPe up-sampling (very high CPU loading).

 

At the NAA end, a slight difference but prefer the Rendu over longer listening sessions (slightly less fatiguing).

 

 

That is most interesting. But hey, no one can (or should) argue with what you hear.

 

Kudos for at least trying it!

[austinpop]

1 hour ago, rickca said:

Thanks for the reminder.  I have a question.  I don't have my NUC yet, but I can boot up AL headless on my Macbook Pro.

 

If I make some changes like updating packages, installing software etc on the Macbook Pro, will it work OK on the NUC?  If so, I can get a head start on customizing AL.  When you do yaourt -Syua does what happens depend on the hardware environment?  

 

So does this thing about using a separately configured USB stick for each PC apply only if you ramboot ... or only if you want to run both machines at the same time?

 

Hope my question is clear.

 

Rick,

 

Absolutely. Just make sure you haven't enabled ramroot, and have the USB stick in place at all times. I did exactly this with my latest stick, which was earnmarked for Roy's loaner NUC. I set everything up ahead of time, and so was ready to go when the NUC arrived.

 

I advise changing the hostname of each device you bring up to a unique name. I also tend to prefer static IPs, so I can remember where to ssh to without trying to figure out their dynamic IP.

[asdf1000]

15 minutes ago, austinpop said:

 

That is most interesting. But hey, no one can (or should) argue with what you hear.

 

Kudos for at least trying it!

 

Not everyone thinks up-sampling to very high sample rates with something like HQPlayer or Audirvana, necessarily results in 'better' sound quality in their system (system dependant).. and that's more than OK of course.. each to their own.

 

but specifically for those that do... something like HQPlayer blows the lid off the theory that you need the networked server to have the absolutely lowest CPU loading for 'better' SQ...

 

The Roon COO said something similar - the context here is people using 'under powered' servers. My ears agree with him too:

 

"Show me any device that claims that good SQ requires low CPU performance, and I’ll counter that with exhibit #2: HQ Player"

 

https://community.roonlabs.com/t/nucleus-or-antipodes-cx/45916/55

 

I think many of us will agree we want the endpoint directly connected to the DAC to have ultra low CPU loading.. but my ears preferring the Rendu seem to think the hardware itself also makes a difference..

 

My ears think there needs to be network isolation between the server and endpoint and this is Roon's recommended best practise too. I think a lot of us here practise that already (for a long time - nothing ground breaking here for most of us). I expect the John Swenson EtherREGEN with even better network isolation may help here too..

 

[austinpop]

2 minutes ago, Em2016 said:

 

Not everyone thinks up-sampling to very high sample rates with something like HQPlayer or Audirvana, necessarily results in 'better' sound quality in their system (system dependant).. and that's more than OK of course.. each to their own.

 

but specifically for those that do... something like HQPlayer blows the lid off the theory that you need the networked server to have the absolutely lowest CPU loading for 'better' SQ...

 

The Roon COO said something similar - the context here is people using 'under powered' Roon Servers. My ears agree with him too:

 

"Show me any device that claims that good SQ requires low CPU performance, and I’ll counter that with exhibit #2: HQ Player"

 

https://community.roonlabs.com/t/nucleus-or-antipodes-cx/45916/55

 

However my ears think there needs to be network isolation between the server and endpoint and this is Roon's recommended best practise too. I think a lot of us here practise that already. I expect the John Swenson EtherREGEN with even better network isolation may help here too..

 

 

I was just referring to NUCs. Clearly you prefer your microRendu to the NUC running AL/RAM. That's cool.

[asdf1000]

2 minutes ago, austinpop said:

 

I was just referring to NUCs. Clearly you prefer your microRendu to the NUC running AL/RAM. That's cool.

 

I've now compared both. I know Larry has said he's never had an ultraRendu in his system (although he prefers his ISO REGEN + LPS-1.2 on the output of his NUC..).

 

How about you - have you compared with an ultraRendu?

 

[austinpop]

2 minutes ago, Em2016 said:

 

I've now compared both. I know Larry has said he's never had an ultraRendu in his system (although he prefers his ISO REGEN + LPS-1.2 on the output of his NUC..).

 

How about you - have you compared with an ultraRendu?

 

 

Not directly, but here's the chain of comparisons I've done over the months:

• I've compared the UR to the sMS-200Ultra a while back. At the time, I think I considered it to be pretty close to the sMS-200Ultra, but the latter pulled ahead when reference clocked with a Ref-10.
• I then found the Zenith SE to outperform the sMS-200ultra/Ref-10, both feeding the tX-USBultra/Ref-10.
• Most recently, Zenith SE booted AL/RAM running Roon player outperformed the standard SE.
• And I have been now listening to Roy's NUC, which I will be posting about soon.I don't want to steal my own thunder, but you can get an idea of what I thought, as I just sold my SE.

By this chain, I think I know how my comparison of NUC with the UR would go!

 

But again - thanks for reporting what you heard. If you heard it the way you did - then that's what's right for you. Peace.

[Dev]

@austinpop how is the NUC powered ?

[asdf1000]

6 minutes ago, austinpop said:

By this chain, I think I know how my comparison of NUC with the UR would go!

 

Not so sure about this since the ultraRendu and SMS-200 Ultra did sound different to my ears in my system... both compared at the same time over a couple of weeks..

 

I preferred the former but many prefer the latter but I don’t think you can guess how the ultraRendu would sound based on the SMS-200.. not at all.

 

Highly recommend you try an ultraRendu + LPS1-.2 if you get the chance..

 

[austinpop]

12 hours ago, rickca said:

I can't stop thinking ... why didn't we hear about this great NUC/AL combination until recently?  It's unbelievably inexpensive and it's been available for quite some time.  Are we all too preoccupied with ever more expensive sophisticated components and elaborate explanations about their design?

 

One word: serendipity!

 

10 hours ago, lmitche said:

Rick,

 

While I may have been the last kid to the party, I first heard about the headless ramboot version of AL from Piero in mid September. The full SQ impact of what we are now hearing wasn't available, at least to me, until then.

 

So I'd argue this is a recent solution.

 

Larry

 

Adrian: demoed his Dream OS (based on AudioLinux running ramroot) to me (and Larry too?) in AXPONA in April. It sounded great, but in a hotel lobby what can you tell.

Roy: this summer, was in search of a mobo that could boot and run with no noisy SATA devices. He discovered the NUC6CAYB, but was intrigued by its eMMC storage, rather than any expectation of SQ. It was only when he paired this with Adrian's Dream OS and tried it that he discovered the SQ. He posted his landmark finding here: https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/30376-a-novel-way-to-massively-improve-the-sq-of-computer-audio-streaming/?do=findComment&comment=860030

Larry: was intrigued by Roy's NUC finding, and again - serendipitously - thought to marry the NUC with AL headless. The rest is history.

 

I know the areas we explore on this thread - starting from the original bridging, clocks, etc - come in for ridicule from detractors as wild ideas we dreamed up. In fact, most, if not all, that we've pursued here have been concepts that already had some traction elsewhere. The key difference here is that we lucked into a community of people who were willing to experiment and report what they heard.

 

That was the spark!

 

[austinpop]

11 minutes ago, Em2016 said:

 

Not so sure about this since the ultraRendu and SMS-200 Ultra did sound different to my ears in my system... both compared at the same time over a couple of weeks..

 

I preferred the former but many prefer the latter but I don’t think you can guess how the ultraRendu would sound based on the SMS-200.. not at all.

 

Highly recommend you try an ultraRendu + LPS1-.2 if you get the chance..

 

 

I think you misunderstood. I compared an actual UltraRendu vs. the sMS-200ultra. 

 

Hang on ... (refers to index) .. here is the report: https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/30376-a-novel-way-to-massively-improve-the-sq-of-computer-audio-streaming/?do=findComment&comment=742958