A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming

greenleo · November 17, 2018

9 minutes ago, Em2016 said:

In terms of HQP NAA, Jussi's own NAA image is free. Is this AL solution better sounding to your ears?

Similarly, one can load Roon's Roon OS (ROCK) on a NUC and use it as a RoonBridge, for free. This is an OS designed and built from scratch by the Roon Team (not based on an existing Linux distro).

Wondering if people have compared these with this AL NUC solution.

NAA is always free, HQPlayer is not. Don't know how to use Jussi's image, hence no comment. But I guess more or less identical sounding.

Roon endpoints are free, Roon core is not. For people who have the Roon license, they may compare. I don't and can't compare the SQ difference.

seeteeyou · November 17, 2018

15 minutes ago, Em2016 said:

This is an OS designed and built from scratch by the Roon Team (not based on an existing Linux distro).

In the end it's still another flavor of Linux with another name, I just couldn't understand the part about scratch

https://kb.roonlabs.com/Roon_Optimized_Core_Kit

Quote

Roon OS is a custom Linux based operating system, tailored for running Roon Server and providing a best-in-class, appliance-type user experience to host the Roon Core.

greenleo · November 17, 2018

3 minutes ago, Johnseye said:

The HQPlayer NAA needs to be installed on an OS unless you're referring to Embedded which is not free.

ROCK can not be loaded into RAM, nor can you install HQPlayer on it. I will likely try Roon Bridge as an endpoint on Audiolinux. Roy did this and liked it enough to call it endgame.

The NAA is included in the AL and it's free.

asdf1000 · November 17, 2018

1 minute ago, seeteeyou said:

In the end it's still another flavor of Linux with another name, I just couldn't understand the part about scratch

https://community.roonlabs.com/t/nucleus-sound-quality/46266/40

From Danny (COO):

"One of the big differences between Roon OS and the others in this space is that Roon OS never “shut down” anything. It just doesn’t include them from the start. Roon OS built from scratch, not built on top of another server or desktop operating system with items that need to be disabled. Every option, every piece of software on this box is there on purpose. I’ve yet to see another Linux based audio device that works this way (ARM or x86/x64)."

asdf1000 · November 17, 2018

6 minutes ago, Johnseye said:

The HQPlayer NAA needs to be installed on an OS unless you're referring to Embedded which is not free.

Jussi has his own fully bootable NAA image... and this can be used on a NUC. No need for the user to install an OS beforehand. I would imagine he knows how to optimize things for HQP NAA as well as anyone. And that image is free.

Just asking if those using HQP NAA on AL have tried Jussi's own NAA image?

seeteeyou · November 17, 2018

1 minute ago, Em2016 said:

"One of the big differences between Roon OS and the others in this space is that Roon OS never “shut down” anything. It just doesn’t include them from the start. Roon OS built from scratch, not built on top of another server or desktop operating system with items that need to be disabled. Every option, every piece of software on this box is there on purpose. I’ve yet to see another Linux based audio device that works this way (ARM or x86/x64)."

Well, then even stuff like Debian was built from "scratch" since they're simply taking from what Torvalds was offering for free. Sometimes merely mentioning the term "scratch" could mean so many different things.

Dev · November 17, 2018

9 minutes ago, Em2016 said:

https://community.roonlabs.com/t/nucleus-sound-quality/46266/40

From Danny (COO):

"One of the big differences between Roon OS and the others in this space is that Roon OS never “shut down” anything. It just doesn’t include them from the start. Roon OS built from scratch, not built on top of another server or desktop operating system with items that need to be disabled. Every option, every piece of software on this box is there on purpose. I’ve yet to see another Linux based audio device that works this way (ARM or x86/x64)."

I think the problem is with the terminology and Linux as a whole. Any Linux distribution today, be it Centos, Ubuntu, Redhat, Debian, Roon Rock, AudioLinux, Foo, Bar, uses the same Linux kernel and a set of open source software. While many start with a particular distribution, say ArchLinux, like Audio Linux did, what Danny is saying is that Rock is built from the scratch using these standard set of open source s/w. The keyword here is "built", which means they only include packages and configuration (kernel and applications) which they think are necessary for Rock to work. Its not developed from scratch.

asdf1000 · November 17, 2018

5 minutes ago, Dev said:

I think the problem is with the terminology and Linux as a whole. Any Linux distribution today, be it Centos, Ubuntu, Redhat, Debian, Roon Rock, AudioLinux, Foo, Bar, uses the same Linux kernel and a set of open source software. While many start with a particular distribution, say ArchLinux, like Audio Linux did, what Danny is saying is that Rock is built from the scratch using these standard set of open source s/w. The keyword here is "built" - its not developed from scratch.

Noted. I'm only asking if people have actually tried it on this low powered NUC (it's free) to compare with with AL + RoonBridge.

As a RoonBridge only, I would assume Roon's ROCK (Roon OS) is highly optimized.

Loading ROCK (without enabling Roon Core for that NUC) will turn that NUC into a Roon Bridge endpoint.

Dev · November 17, 2018

5 minutes ago, Em2016 said:

Noted. I'm only asking if people have actually tried it on this low powered NUC (it's free) to compare with with AL + RoonBridge.

As a RoonBridge only, I would assume Roon's ROCK (Roon OS) is highly optimized.

Before the NUC business, I ran Rock end-to-end on a server as well as a streamer which is not a NUC but a mini-itx board running Celeron N2930. I might install Rock someday on this NUC and see how it compares but if my audio memory serves me right, then I would say AL with ramroot will trump Rock.

Johnseye · November 17, 2018

16 minutes ago, greenleo said:

The NAA is included in the AL and it's free.

Yea I know but you can't install it without an OS.

asdf1000 · November 17, 2018

4 minutes ago, Dev said:

Before the NUC business, I ran Rock end-to-end on a server as well as a streamer. I might install Rock someday on this NUC and see how it compares but if my audio memory serves me right, then I would say AL with ramroot will trump Rock.

Thanks for the reply and do share if you do try it. I certainly wasn't making any claims (I wouldn't dare, here in this hornets nest ? )

Just asking if anyone had actually tried and their impressions.

austinpop · November 17, 2018

6 minutes ago, Em2016 said:

Noted. I'm only asking if people have actually tried it on this low powered NUC (it's free) to compare with with AL + RoonBridge.

I suspect we won't know until somebody feels inclined to try it. It's probably easiest for someone who already has a NUC with ROCK to compare it with AL.

7 minutes ago, Em2016 said:

As a RoonBridge only, I would assume Roon's ROCK (Roon OS) is highly optimized.

If only we lived in this idyllic world - where a vendor knows best? If there's one thing we've learned here, it's that they often don't!

3 minutes ago, Dev said:

if my audio memory serves me right, then I would say AL with ramroot will trump Rock.

Ah OK - good to know.

Dev · November 17, 2018

1 minute ago, Em2016 said:

Thanks for the reply and do share if you do try it. I certainly wasn't making any claims. Just asking if anyone had actually tried.

Yeah, I agree. Its always good to know what's making the difference if they are kind of running the same code underneath but only differ in their operating model. Rock and AL is not like Linux vs Windows thing.

asdf1000 · November 17, 2018

1 minute ago, austinpop said:

I suspect we won't know until somebody feels inclined to try it.

Well yes, this is all I've asked, a few times...

1 minute ago, austinpop said:

If only we lived in this idyllic world - where a vendor knows best?

Well in this case (Roon specifically) is also the vendor who have developed this proprietary streaming architecture (RAAT).

Once again, I'm only asking the question. I'm always careful to not make any claims, especially here in this hornet's nest ?

Johnseye · November 17, 2018

22 minutes ago, Em2016 said:

Jussi has his own fully bootable NAA image... and this can be used on a NUC. No need for the user to install an OS beforehand. I would imagine he knows how to optimize things for HQP NAA as well as anyone. And that image is free.

Just asking if those using HQP NAA on AL have tried Jussi's own NAA image?

The only bootable HQPlayer I know about is embedded and it's not free. Maybe I'm wrong and if so please point me in the direction. Even if there were you couldn't load it in RAM... Yet.

I expect other audio developers using the Linux kernel as their base to start offering a load to ram function. Jussi designed his embedded version from the kernel up I believe. I'm guessing Roon did as well.

Also remember that Roon Bridge does not use RAAT

asdf1000 · November 17, 2018

4 minutes ago, Johnseye said:

The only bootable HQPlayer I know about is embedded and it's not free. Maybe I'm wrong and if so please point me in the direction. Even if there were you couldn't load it in RAM... Yet.

I linked it earlier in this same thread...

https://www.signalyst.eu/bins/naa/images/

And yes, Jussi's own NAA image is fully USB bootable (the same way HQPE is - I use both...). And obviously Jussi's NAA image is free - I'm only talking about the NAA/endpoint side here (not the cost of the server side, HQPE or Roon Core costs). No OS needs to be pre-installed (as I've mentioned a few times).

Use the x64 image for the NUC...

austinpop · November 17, 2018

1 minute ago, Em2016 said:

Well yes, this is all I've asked, a few times...

Yes, you've made your ask. Now let's wait to see if anyone feels motivated to go do it. No point asking it multiple times.

Any interest in trying it yourself?

1 minute ago, Em2016 said:

Well in this case (Roon specifically) is also the vendor who have developed this proprietary streaming architecture (RAAT).

Not sure RAAT has anything to do with it.

Dev · November 17, 2018

1 minute ago, Em2016 said:

I linked it earlier in this same thread...

https://www.signalyst.eu/bins/naa/images/

And yes, Jussi's own NAA image is fully USB bootable (the same way HQPE is - I use both...) No OS needs to be pre-installed (as I've mentioned a few times).

Use the x64 image for the NUC...

This NAA image is a full OS image, similar to AL.

diecaster · November 17, 2018

6 minutes ago, Johnseye said:

Also remember that Roon Bridge does not use RAAT

Of course it does:

https://kb.roonlabs.com/RAAT

Roon communicates from Core to any Roon endpoint with RAAT.

Johnseye · November 17, 2018

2 minutes ago, Em2016 said:

I linked it earlier in this same thread...

https://www.signalyst.eu/bins/naa/images/

And yes, Jussi's own NAA image is fully USB bootable (the same way HQPE is - I use both... and obviously Jussi's NAA image is free) No OS needs to be pre-installed (as I've mentioned a few times).

Use the x64 image for the NUC...

Thanks! I didn't realize. My NUC has no hard drive. I wonder if it will boot from USB.

asdf1000 · November 17, 2018

3 minutes ago, Dev said:

This NAA image is a full OS image, similar to AL.

Yup I know. But it's free. Again, I'm just asking if anyone tried this free image developed by Jussi for NAA (and nothing else), compared with the $29 AL + NAA solution...

asdf1000 · November 17, 2018

2 minutes ago, Johnseye said:

Thanks! I didn't realize. My NUC has no hard drive. I wonder if it will boot from USB.

No worries. And yep, I mentioned a few times, it's fully USB bootable... just like HQP Embedded in that way. Free to try and optimized by Jussi for NAA and nothing else.

Dev · November 17, 2018

Another comparison that is meaningful is Roon/RAAT vs HQP/NAA with the same AL image. I am still on trial on HQP embedded and find HQP/NAA (with Roon as controller) to sound better than Roon/RAAT.

Johnseye · November 17, 2018

1 minute ago, diecaster said:

Of course it does:

https://kb.roonlabs.com/RAAT

Roon communicates from Core to any Roon endpoint with RAAT.

Hmm someone in the Roon forums said it didn't. I've learned 2 new things today. Thanks.

Dev · November 17, 2018

RAAT is a protocol (just like NAA) that communicates between Roon server and a Roon endpoint - the endpoint could be Roon Bridge or Roon certified device.

A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming

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