A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming

[rickca]

7 hours ago, mourip said:

I have gone to the AudioLinux web page twice full of enthusiasm and come back defeated each time. It may be the answer to our audiophile dreams but whoever put together that web page should know that it is intimidating and confusing even for someone who has worked in IT for 25 years.

I had pretty much the same reaction even though I was a unix sysadm long, long ago.  A setup guide would certainly be welcome.  We can always research steps or commands we don't understand so we feel confident we know what we're doing.

[seeteeyou]

4 hours ago, romaz said:

As previously stated, my HP workstation utilizes an 8-core Xeon with a base frequency of 3.4GHz and 25MB of SmartCache and a TDP of 150w.  My Mac Pro utilizes a 12-core Xeon with a base frequency of 2.7GHz and 30MB of SmartCache and a TDP of 130w.  I can tell you that the Mac Pro is sounding better.

 

Intel Xeon E5-2697 v2 and Xeon E5-2687W v2 Review: 12 and 8 Cores

https://www.anandtech.com/show/7852/intel-xeon-e52697-v2-and-xeon-e52687w-v2-review-12-and-8-cores/2

 

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https://ark.intel.com/products/75283/Intel-Xeon-Processor-E5-2697-v2-30M-Cache-2-70-GHz-

https://everymac.com/systems/apple/mac_pro/specs/mac-pro-twelve-core-2.7-xeon-e5-gray-black-cylinder-late-2013-specs.html

Quote

The Mac Pro "Twelve Core" 2.7 (Late 2013) is powered by a single 2.7 GHz Twelve Core 22-nm Xeon E5-2697v2 processor with a dedicated 256k of level 2 cache for each core and 30 MB of level 3 "Smart Cache."

 

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https://ark.intel.com/products/76161/Intel-Xeon-Processor-E5-2687W-v2-25M-Cache-3-40-GHz-

http://www8.hp.com/us/en/campaigns/workstations/z820.html

Quote

With support for two processors, the HP Z820 can operate with up to 24 processing cores, delivering ultimate performance to help you accomplish more.

 

https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/30376-a-novel-way-to-massively-improve-the-sq-of-computer-audio-streaming/?page=9&tab=comments#comment-617281

On 1/10/2017 at 4:50 PM, romaz said:

HP Z820 workstation with dual 8-core Xeons and Nvidia Quadro K5000. Unfortunately, a very noisy machine.

 

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A little bit of clarification would be great, do you have more than one HP Z820 by any chance? Dual E5-2687W V2 in 2017 and then single E5-2687W V2 in 2018?

 

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Back in Oct 2018, Mac Pro (with E5-2697 V2) running OS from SSD was inferior to HP Z820 (with E5-2687W V2) running OS from RAM

 

https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/30376-a-novel-way-to-massively-improve-the-sq-of-computer-audio-streaming/?page=402&tab=comments#comment-890785

On 10/29/2018 at 7:01 PM, romaz said:

As good as my Mac Pro sounded as my RoonServer, the HPZ820 workstation running AudioLinux + RoonServer in RAM simply sounded better.  A LOT BETTER and it was one of those OMG moments!  Deeper, richer tone with better dynamics, better bass, better transients, better separation and better articulation.  Bingo!

 

In Nov 2018, Mac Pro turned out to be superior when there's a level playing field as both of them were running headless OS from RAM.

[Middy]

6 hours ago, tapatrick said:

 A warning for those in the UK if you are looking for a fanless case for your NUC7CJYH don't buy from amazon as its 2x the price of the same one here: https://www.scan.co.uk/products/akasa-newton-jc-fanless-low-profile-case-8th-generation-intel-nuc-june-canyon-25-hdd-ssd

 

NUC7CJYH can be found here.. for £109

https://www.laptopsdirect.co.uk/intel-nuc-kit-nuc7cjyh-celeron-j4005-mini-barebone-pc-boxnuc7cjyh3/version.asp

 

Thanks mate,  I sold 2 old phones and jumped the gun.

     I made the mistake of Using Ebuyer, not the best in UK but god they use Yodel as thier delivery firm. Thier working model is deliver when you are out, not weekends and have the nearest depot 30 miles away.  Next try Wednesday the wifes in...

At least its via Amazon....

 

I ordered 4G ram do i need the full 8G for the celeron NUC? No rush for answers just having fun going under the radar ish.... learning new tricks 

Hoping my 13v Sbooster can drive it as mentioned..

 

Keep smiling all

Dave

 

[seeteeyou]

Not sure about pricing yet, though AMD EPYC Rome 7nm (with absolutely INSANE core count) looked mighty impressive

 

https://wccftech.com/amd-epyc-rome-7nm-64-core-cpu-performance-benchmark-leak/

https://forums.anandtech.com/threads/64-core-epyc-rome-（zen2）architecture-overview？.2554453/

 

For Epyc 7351P with 64MB L3 cache and 16 cores, TDP is 155W/170W and it's about $830 on Amazon

 

https://www.amd.com/en/products/cpu/amd-epyc-7351p

https://www.amazon.com/AMD-7351P-Hexadeca-Core-Processor-Retail/dp/B077JZ8JQL

 

ATX motherboard for $350 or so

 

https://www.gamepc.com/shop/products?sku=H11SSL-i

https://www.provantage.com/supermicro-mbd-h11ssl-i-b~7SUPM5TR.htm

https://www.amazon.com/Supermicro-MBD-H11SSL-I-B-EPYC-7000-Brown/dp/B07943YXT2

[greenleo]

1 hour ago, rickca said:

I had pretty much the same reaction even though I was a unix sysadm long, long ago.  A setup guide would certainly be welcome.  We can always research steps or commands we don't understand so we feel confident we know what we're doing.

I try to help for the GUI version.

 

My setup is a PC with local drives and UEFI boot possible.

 

1. Buy the GUI version(not the headless) image download it.

2. Download the RUFUS 2.x version.

3. Run it in Win7 (I tried) with your USB disk(at least 16GB) attached already.

4. Your USB disk will be found automatically.  Select the dd (not ISO) option from the dropdown menu.  Select your image.  Most options cannot be selected now.

5. Click start and burn the USB disk.  Warning: everything in the USB disk will be erased!

6. Once burning finished, restart your PC.

7. Hit the key to enter the UEFI (this is mobo dependent, mine is F2)

8. Choose boot menu and the UEFI USB disk as the boot device.

9. Be patient and don't worry about some of the warnings.  After sometime, say 1 to 2 mins, AudioLinux will be up and now you are in an GUI environment.

9. Click the folder Start Here (top left)

10. You should see your local disk listed.  Click the one that contains your music files and mount it.  The password is audiolinux0

11. Make sure you may see the contents of the drive.

12. Now you may use the HQPlayer (as an example) to play music.

 

Hope this helps.

[Middy]

Maarten van Druten 'Audio Dandy has this on his site. Does this help some people..?

http://www.modelpromo.nl/AudioLinux-part2.htm

 

Install guide...

 

Dave

[greenleo]

16 minutes ago, Middy said:

Maarten van Druten 'Audio Dandy has this on his site. Does this help some people..?

http://www.modelpromo.nl/AudioLinux-part2.htm

 

Install guide...

 

Dave

If you only need to boot the AudioLinux through an USB disk, the RUFUS dd is the simplest and quickest option :-)

[simonklp]

10 hours ago, greenleo said:

Is the Command Line version the headless version?

 

No. It is only one of the optional versions of AudioLinux selectable at start up page before entry of the OS.

[simonklp]

1 hour ago, greenleo said:

If you only need to boot the AudioLinux through an USB disk, the RUFUS dd is the simplest and quickest option :-)

 

Hi Leo, fully agreed that Rufus is the most convenient free option available. By the way, it has been upgraded to version 3.3 already. Cheers.

[sig8]

JSSG 360 keeps on giving. I just applied JSSG 360 to 5v DC cable feeding JCAT USB 2.0 card and it was like, wow. I am amazed.

[greenleo]

19 minutes ago, simonklp said:

 

Hi Leo, fully agreed that Rufus is the most convenient free option available. By the way, it has been upgraded to version 3.3 already. Cheers.

I'm told that for compatibility issues, it's better to stick with 2.x version.  Also, 2.x works in Win 7 as well (the official site says that it's for XP and Vista)

 

Cheers.

[greenleo]

31 minutes ago, simonklp said:

 

No. It is only one of the optional versions of AudioLinux selectable at start up page before entry of the OS.

I see.  So the SQ is better than the lxqt, right?

 

How do you play music in command mode?  I'm very interested.

[seeteeyou]

Not exactly command line but it's more like headless mode that costs an extra 20 bucks ($ instead of € now, even better deal?)

 

http://www.audio-linux.com/html/paypal/index.html

 

Since it's totally unattended, we've gotta control everything remotely by running stuff like UPnP / DLNA / OpenHome / LMS / MPD / HQP / Roon etc.

[greenleo]

17 minutes ago, seeteeyou said:

Not exactly command line but it's more like headless mode that costs an extra 20 bucks ($ instead of € now, even better deal?)

 

http://www.audio-linux.com/html/paypal/index.html

 

Since it's totally unattended, we've gotta control everything remotely by running stuff like UPnP / DLNA / OpenHome / LMS / MPD / HQP / Roon etc.

Thanks C2U.  I'm ready to pay the $20 extra.  However, I can't connect the WiFi adapter from the AudioLinux to my router, which is the hurdle.  It seems that AL cannot recognize my adapter, let alone setting it to connect to my router...

 

A step by step setup guide for the headless audiolinux would be very much appreciated.

[greenleo]

For the TDP vs latency vs SQ business, the following is what I thought:

 

The lower the power, the better the SQ because the noise is reduced.

 

The lower the latency, the better the SQ.  Hence we strive the lowest value of buffers in various playback software as I have noticed.  I stand corrected.

 

Now multi core CPU provides better SQ.  I guess the power for 2 identical cores both running at 50% loading is less than that of an identical core running at 100% loading.  Hence there exists a sweet point or the point of diminishing return.  However, this sweet point is system dependent and process dependent.  For one who needs to do lots of upsampling, more CPU cores should be better.  For one who just need to send already serialized music data to the DAC, probably a smaller number of CPU cores should be enough.  In real cases, probably the computational power of the core between different plays a role a role and the software used for playback counts as well.

 

I look farward to the findings of other CA members.

[simonklp]

2 hours ago, greenleo said:

I'm told that for compatibility issues, it's better to stick with 2.x version.  Also, 2.x works in Win 7 as well (the official site says that it's for XP and Vista)

 

Cheers.

 

I see. For your information, I use the 3.0 version on Windows 10 Pro without problem. Cheers.

[simonklp]

2 hours ago, greenleo said:

I see.  So the SQ is better than the lxqt, right?

 

How do you play music in command mode?  I'm very interested.

 

I did not conduct a detailed A-B comparison for SQ between the two. But conventional wisdom and initial impression have driven me to go for the Command Line version for quality listening.

 

About playing in AudioLinux Command Line mode, I use the following commands to start and enable HQPlayer Embedded:

systemctl —user start hqplayerd

systemctl—user enable hqplayerd

Then use either HQPDcontrol or BubbleUPnP to stream local or Tidal music respectively.

 

For further details, you may refer to the website of AudioLinux or contact Piero for his advice.

[One and a half]

Can Roon core run on a USB stick of AudioLinux?

[One and a half]

1 hour ago, greenleo said:

For the TDP vs latency vs SQ business, the following is what I thought:

 

The lower the power, the better the SQ because the noise is reduced.

 

The lower the latency, the better the SQ.  Hence we strive the lowest value of buffers in various playback software as I have noticed.  I stand corrected.

 

Now multi core CPU provides better SQ.  I guess the power for 2 identical cores both running at 50% loading is less than that of an identical core running at 100% loading.  Hence there exists a sweet point or the point of diminishing return.  However, this sweet point is system dependent and process dependent.  For one who needs to do lots of upsampling, more CPU cores should be better.  For one who just need to send already serialized music data to the DAC, probably a smaller number of CPU cores should be enough.  In real cases, probably the computational power of the core between different plays a role a role and the software used for playback counts as well.

 

I look farward to the findings of other CA members.

Isn't the concept of the lower power the better concept already existing with the renderers? I mean, the smaller power footprint equates to less noise. If you need more cores, then a regular mobo with all its noise is back again.

If the object is to have a lowest possible overhead on the OS, wouldn't Fidelizer or Audio Optimizer do that job already? If a modular Intel based single board computer like an Odroid H2 could be interfaced to a Jplay USB or Ethernet Card, there could be some interest.

 

 

[simonklp]

4 hours ago, seeteeyou said:

Not exactly command line but it's more like headless mode that costs an extra 20 bucks ($ instead of € now, even better deal?)

 

http://www.audio-linux.com/html/paypal/index.html

 

Since it's totally unattended, we've gotta control everything remotely by running stuff like UPnP / DLNA / OpenHome / LMS / MPD / HQP / Roon etc.

 

Hi seeteeyou, in my previous discussion, I was referring to Command Line mode selectable at the start page before entering AudioLinux, not the Headless version of AudioLinux. The Command Line mode is already included in the basic AudioLinux lxqt instead of the Headless version at an extra cost as you mentioned.

 

In addition, although you can certainly control everything remotely by NoMachine and etc. under AudioLinux Headless, I have checked with Piero that connection of the keyboard and monitor for control is still possible. Cheers.

[seeteeyou]

Intel Xeon Scalable Family Roadmap Revealed – Points Out 14nm Cascade Lake-SP in Q4 2018, Cooper Lake-SP in Q4 2019, 10nm Ice Lake-SP in 1H 2020

https://wccftech.com/intel-xeon-scalable-family-roadmap-revealed-points-out-cascade-lake-sp-in-q4-2018-cooper-lake-sp-in-q4-2019-ice-lake-sp-in-1h-2020/

 

 

So they finally launched the beta program for Intel® Optane™ DC persistent memory a few days ago, that's gonna require Cascade Lake-SP as mentioned above

 

https://software.intel.com/en-us/persistent-memory

https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/architecture-and-technology/intel-optane-technology.html

https://newsroom.intel.com/news/intel-optane-dc-persistent-memory-readies-widespread-deployment

 

Its latency ain't as low as what DRAM could offer

 

https://www.snia.org/sites/default/files/SSSI/NVDIMM - Changes are Here So What's Next - final.pdf#page=4

https://www.snia.org/sites/default/files/SDC15_presentations/database/GilRussell_IMDB_NDP_Advances_Final.pdf#page=6

Quote

 

DRAM: 10GB/s per channel, ~100 nanosecond latency

 

3D XPoint DIMMs ~6GB/s per channel, ~250 nanosecond latency

 

 

https://www.datanami.com/2013/07/01/achieving_low_latency_the_fall_and_rise_of_storage_caching/

https://medium.com/software-design/why-software-developers-should-care-about-cpu-caches-8da04355bb8a

Quote

L1 cache access latency: 4 cycles
L2 cache access latency: 11 cycles
L3 cache access latency: 39 cycles
Main memory access latency: 107 cycles

 

[seeteeyou]

Quick question for our Linux experts here, could running AudioLinux on an additional NUC fulfill the role of a router (for the sake of streaming from TIDAL / Qobuz etc.) if we're adding this quad Ethernet to USB 3.0 adapter?

 

https://www.amazon.com/IO-Crest-SY-HUB24047-Gigabit-Network/dp/B01N16C75R

 

Router - ArchWiki
https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Router

https://www.reddit.com/r/archlinux/comments/8sftgj/arch_linux_as_routerfirewall_advise/

 

[greenleo]

4 hours ago, simonklp said:

 

I see. For your information, I use the 3.0 version on Windows 10 Pro without problem. Cheers.

Good to know this.  I'm still using Win7, I guess I'm a bit slow in catching up. LOL.

[seeteeyou]

On 10/31/2018 at 3:02 AM, elan120 said:

I believe these are Molex Micro-Latch.  I didn't like them due to the size and different crimp terminals, so when I did my txUSBUltra cable upgrade, I change the header to SPOX so I can use the same connectors on both ends of cable.

 

We still dunno how ClocksEye^2 would pan out yet, maybe it doesn't hurt to ask you something like this.

 

Since all 4 clock outputs of sCLK-EX don't seem to have much space around them, do you think it's worth the risks to change those U.FL connectors to something else?

 

For instance, we could add one of those Micro BNC to BNC adapters as follows and we might be able figure a way to use something that's as good as Habst afterwards

 

http://www.coax-connectors.com/products/connectors/bnc-micro-(hd-bnc)75-ohm.aspx

 

Differences as shown below

 

https://www.canford.co.uk/Products/48-5022_COAX-CONNS-67-005-B66-FA-MICRO-BNC-12G-UHD-Male-cable-crimp-group-X

[dsyzling]

15 hours ago, MrUnderhill said:

NUC setup and running headless via RAM - music pouring forth.

 

I'll report back in due course.

 

Gents, thx for the hard work.

 

M

 

Just out of interest how are you then connecting the NUC to the Audio Note dac - USB direct or via the Singxer to the spdif? I presume the Audio Note is better with spdif than USB in general?