A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming

[kyrill]

On 10/4/2018 at 2:30 PM, Mark62 said:

Thanks for the lead on the 3rd dummy wifi in the bridge.  I'll try that first.  And, thanks for the great summary post.  As I've tried to get into this topic, it has been extremely helpful.  I just recently got an ultraRendu and have been so impressed with its sound.  If it can get even better, I'll be quite happy!

hi Mark

you have two complaints

one NAS based and two Roon stuttering based

I can only explain complex things for myself and so to others by deconstructing the complex to the most basic simplicity ( which can still be complex as we shall see

 

What i have in home working after severe stuttering problems is this

one NUC ( OS on  Supermicro SATA DOM 32 Gig to avoid ssd) with two Ethernet ports ( NICs)   bridged.  One NIC to a WiFi router with a SUPRA 8 ethernet cable ( 6 meters) for internet and wifi (to smart phone to control what to play), and the rest of the private home network, the other NIC is connected to a UltraRendu with 1 mtr supra 8 ethernet cable.

The NUC is physically settled in the stereo system (DEQX + Jadis amps etc). I am a purist and found music stored on a shielded USB stick sounds noticeable more musical and transparent than any other solution I tried So no  ssd or nas for me. So main music is in my PC on terra hdds. so my music source

 

suggestion make the bridge work in its most simple form ( you need temporarily mouse and  monitor and keyboard for the NUC)

1) Make the bridge as simple as possible , make it work without stuttering and from then on expand the bridge

A bridge is within 1 computer  ok?

So one NUC has two NICs which are bridged.

You need internet for Tidal or other stations. So one bridge is linked to a router/switch with WiFi with FTP cable

the other one to the UltraRendu with Ethernet FTP cable

That  is all for the moment only to test

2) bridge the  NICs with fixed ip numbers incl gateway and 2 DNS servers numbers

Dont activate Roon. Download a free DNLA player for your UltraRendu from google store on your phone

3) set some music ( also 96 khz or 192 khz on a usb stick and plug it into the NUC. Add usb stick to library by Rclick mouse and choose add to library

Set UltraRendu to DLNA

From the android phone with for instance HiFi Cast you should see ultraRendu, the library and the music nuc as server and all should play

The player has a shoutcast  radio entree, try if you can get music from the internet. should work but mp3 sounds afwul

 

Tell me does it work?

 

Forget what is here below that is phase two when above does not work

 

I had   severe stuttering too.

what helped is  with trial and error change the properties of the bridge under

(A) control panel/network and internet/network connections

Rklick  properties   I can only tell you what I did . My bridge is between UltraRendu and Router/switch . They come together in that NUC having two NIC ports bridged. the router provided an internet connection as well connecting to other PCs 0r maybe in you case NAS?

What i canceled in  properties was  ( W10 PRO)

client for Ms networks and all the others except Ipv4 e.g. file and printer sharing  QoS and so on. when done click OK at bottom of page.

Dont start with Tidal. I put some songs in the music folder under "users" in the boot disk. i only want to test the bridge

 

If all play well to UltraRendu go to the next point (B)

if not find out which particular property you have to activate again. Roon may like QoS. I dont use Roon yet and can do without.

(B) Go To on same "page" to configure  of the ethernet card

you see a lot of tabs

1) Power management unclick all of them

2)Advanced        This is the tricky one . lot of choices. But this one resolved my stuttering. the principle is disable as much as possible. every activated property infuses latency and or extra jitter

Then we

 

[Mark62]

3 hours ago, kyrill said:

hi Mark

you have two complaints

one NAS based and two Roon stuttering based

I can only explain complex things for myself and so to others by deconstructing the complex to the most basic simplicity ( which can still be complex as we shall see

 

What i have in home working after severe stuttering problems is this

one NUC ( OS on  Supermicro SATA DOM 32 Gig to avoid ssd) with two Ethernet ports ( NICs)   bridged.  One NIC to a WiFi router with a SUPRA 8 ethernet cable ( 6 meters) for internet and wifi (to smart phone to control what to play), and the rest of the private home network, the other NIC is connected to a UltraRendu with 1 mtr supra 8 ethernet cable.

The NUC is physically settled in the stereo system (DEQX + Jadis amps etc). I am a purist and found music stored on a shielded USB stick sounds noticeable more musical and transparent than any other solution I tried So no  ssd or nas for me. So main music is in my PC on terra hdds. so my music source

 

suggestion make the bridge work in its most simple form ( you need temporarily mouse and  monitor and keyboard for the NUC)

1) Make the bridge as simple as possible , make it work without stuttering and from then on expand the bridge

A bridge is within 1 computer  ok?

So one NUC has two NICs which are bridged.

You need internet for Tidal or other stations. So one bridge is linked to a router/switch with WiFi with FTP cable

the other one to the UltraRendu with Ethernet FTP cable

That  is all for the moment only to test

2) bridge the  NICs with fixed ip numbers incl gateway and 2 DNS servers numbers

Dont activate Roon. Download a free DNLA player for your UltraRendu from google store on your phone

3) set some music ( also 96 khz or 192 khz on a usb stick and plug it into the NUC. Add usb stick to library by Rclick mouse and choose add to library

Set UltraRendu to DLNA

From the android phone with for instance HiFi Cast you should see ultraRendu, the library and the music nuc as server and all should play

The player has a shoutcast  radio entree, try if you can get music from the internet. should work but mp3 sounds afwul

 

Tell me does it work?

 

Forget what is here below that is phase two when above does not work

 

I had   severe stuttering too.

what helped is  with trial and error change the properties of the bridge under

(A) control panel/network and internet/network connections

Rklick  properties   I can only tell you what I did . My bridge is between UltraRendu and Router/switch . They come together in that NUC having two NIC ports bridged. the router provided an internet connection as well connecting to other PCs 0r maybe in you case NAS?

What i canceled in  properties was  ( W10 PRO)

client for Ms networks and all the others except Ipv4 e.g. file and printer sharing  QoS and so on. when done click OK at bottom of page.

Dont start with Tidal. I put some songs in the music folder under "users" in the boot disk. i only want to test the bridge

 

If all play well to UltraRendu go to the next point (B)

if not find out which particular property you have to activate again. Roon may like QoS. I dont use Roon yet and can do without.

(B) Go To on same "page" to configure  of the ethernet card

you see a lot of tabs

1) Power management unclick all of them

2)Advanced        This is the tricky one . lot of choices. But this one resolved my stuttering. the principle is disable as much as possible. every activated property infuses latency and or extra jitter

Then we

 

Thanks for the detailed response.  I have, for the most part, done your part 1.  I have a single PC w/2 ethernet ports, I have used W10 Pro to create the bridge and set the static IP information.  1 of the ports goes to my router and the other goes to my ultrarendu.  The only thing I don't have is 2 DNS servers in the bridge network properties.  When I run "IP Config /all" prior to bridging - there is only one DNS server listed - not alternate.  I'm not sure what I would put if my system does not list one currently...any suggestions?

 

I have not yet but will try playing a file that's on my local HD to further test the bridge itself w/o worrying about the router interaction.

 

If that doesn't work, I'll look further into settings.  I have a feeling that the same thing that solves the stuttering will solve the issue that my PC can no longer see my NAS attached to my router.  There's some sort of network issue that is behind it - just don't know what.

[the_doc735]

23 minutes ago, Mark62 said:

Thanks for the detailed response.  I have, for the most part, done your part 1.  I have a single PC w/2 ethernet ports, I have used W10 Pro to create the bridge and set the static IP information.  1 of the ports goes to my router and the other goes to my ultrarendu.  The only thing I don't have is 2 DNS servers in the bridge network properties.  When I run "IP Config /all" prior to bridging - there is only one DNS server listed - not alternate.  I'm not sure what I would put if my system does not list one currently...any suggestions?

 

I have not yet but will try playing a file that's on my local HD to further test the bridge itself w/o worrying about the router interaction.

 

If that doesn't work, I'll look further into settings.  I have a feeling that the same thing that solves the stuttering will solve the issue that my PC can no longer see my NAS attached to my router.  There's some sort of network issue that is behind it - just don't know what.

could it be a windows bug that hasn't been resolved? Maybe if you screen shot your "IP Config /all" on to here, that may help someone to see an issue?

[kyrill]

doc yes it can be a bug but on what level? So better for Mike to sort things out from the basics up.

 

Mike you can find the the dns if you, on any computer in the house or laptop that has  internet by DHCP ( so no manual configuring) goto network and sharing center/ change adapters settings /  OR

go the window where you NIC or Ethernet connection can be seen' DOnt click properties but Status / Details and then you see all the numbers. By the way a NUC  powered by an audiophile DC supply sounds better as a server than any PC unless  a dedicated audiophile  itx or microatx heavily modded and in an aluminum casing and fastly it becomes very expensive and even then how to avoid OS in ssd?

 

Keep us posted

[auricgoldfinger]

I have a question for SOtM DIY experts:  Can anyone tell me the brand/model of the DC connectors shown in the photos?  I am looking for 2- and 4-pin versions.

 

 

[Mark62]

4 hours ago, the_doc735 said:

could it be a windows bug that hasn't been resolved? Maybe if you screen shot your "IP Config /all" on to here, that may help someone to see an issue?

I will do that tomorrow after I try 2 more things.  Want the screen shot after bridging?

[Blackmorec]

On 10/8/2018 at 6:49 PM, BigAlMc said:

Hi Steve / @Blackmorec,

 

Yeah good thoughtful post.

 

Its easy to think in terms of the difference between the SE and the Statement as simply that Innuos adopted OCXO clocking. But as you point out that's an over simplification. Innuos have (to their great credit) paid attention to the clocking but have also simply continued their evolution towards sonic nirvana elsewhere in the Statement.

 

That said I'm sure the question will gravitate in many SE owners minds around how big the delta is between the SE & Reference Clocking versus the Statement.

 

Personally speaking unless convinced somehow that the difference was really compelling the cost/effort of selling the spaghetti-clock-marinara to fund a Statement is a dealbreaker for me at least.

 

Cheers,

Alan

Hi Alan, Thanks for the nice comment.

 

For sure the Statement is going to provide a very worthwhile step up, but if you are too heavily invested in an SE + reclocking, there are other ways to enhance its performance significantly without spending tons of money, basically by using the same approach to other parts of your system that Innuos has used on the Statement.

Couple of examples...if you use an ISP supplied router and wi-fi, chances are very high that its limiting your system. Add a decent high tech 3 band router with a high quality 2 rail LPS for modem and router and you’ll immediately gain a significant step up in sound quality. Place a decent cable between modem and router for another jump in SQ.  Place the router on the base module of the little Atacama mini rack and smile at the improvement that brings. Similarly, on the streaming side you could add a high quality switch like the AQVox or if you already have one, adding a high quality LPS in place of the standard SMPS uplifts the sonics considerably without any downside. Put that LPS on an Atacama mini base if you want another smile. Finally add a dedicated chassis earth to the AQVox if you don’t already have one. Oh, and if not already done, an upgrade to the SE’s power cable is also very beneficial....only run it in on something that draws some decent current otherwise it takes weeks to sound like it should. 

By the time you’ve finished sound quality will be very close or equivalent for a not huge investment. The SE is a great piece of kit, but there are areas that can be improved; hence the Statement. However the SE responds extremely well to upstream upgrades, giving you the potential to apply better power suppliers, network devices and vibration control to achieve significant performance improvements. 

[the_doc735]

1 hour ago, Mark62 said:

I will do that tomorrow after I try 2 more things.  Want the screen shot after bridging?

both really.

[the_doc735]

59 minutes ago, agillis said:

Bridging on Windows can be a bit complex to set up. We have the sonicTransporter i7 that has two Ethernet ports and built in bridging. It works very well and requires no special setup. A dedicated Roon server is always a good way to eliminate problems.

 

If you don't want to buy a new Roon server there is a cheaper option, a local switch. This one works really well and costs very little

 

https://www.amazon.com/TRENDnet-Unmanaged-GREENnet-Switching-Protection/dp/B001QUA6R0

 

I know there has been a lot of discussion in the thread about Ethernet switches. There are some other great options out there but nothing is better for the price then this TRENDnet.

 

Attach both your Roon server and your Rendu network player to this switch then run an Ethernet cable from it back to your router. If you don't have networking available in that location use a HomePlug adapter.

 

I recommend this setup to a lot of our customer who are using a sonicTransporter i5 (with only one Ethernet port) and it has resolved a lot of Roon stuttering problems.

 

We also sell a Linear supply that would power that switch if you need an inexpensive upgrade.

 

https://www.smallgreencomputer.com/collections/accessories/products/5v-15v-linear-power-supply-15w

 

 

home plugs spread airborne* noise and interference everywhere in your network through your domestic household wiring, not to mention things like fridge/freezers, washers etc! Don;t use home plugs for hifi under any circumstances!!

*when used in conjunction with bridge devices.

 

please remember agillis has a vested interest!

[the_doc735]

44 minutes ago, Blackmorec said:

Hi Alan, Thanks for the nice comment.

 

For sure the Statement is going to provide a very worthwhile step up, but if you are too heavily invested in an SE + reclocking, there are other ways to enhance its performance significantly without spending tons of money, basically by using the same approach to other parts of your system that Innuos has used on the Statement.

Couple of examples...if you use an ISP supplied router and wi-fi, chances are very high that its limiting your system. Add a decent high tech 3 band router with a high quality 2 rail LPS for modem and router and you’ll immediately gain a significant step up in sound quality. Place a decent cable between modem and router for another jump in SQ.  Place the router on the base module of the little Atacama mini rack and smile at the improvement that brings. Similarly, on the streaming side you could add a high quality switch like the AQVox or if you already have one, adding a high quality LPS in place of the standard SMPS uplifts the sonics considerably without any downside. Put that LPS on an Atacama mini base if you want another smile. Finally add a dedicated chassis earth to the AQVox if you don’t already have one. Oh, and if not already done, an upgrade to the SE’s power cable is also very beneficial....only run it in on something that draws some decent current otherwise it takes weeks to sound like it should. 

By the time you’ve finished sound quality will be very close or equivalent for a not huge investment. The SE is a great piece of kit, but there are areas that can be improved; hence the Statement. However the SE responds extremely well to upstream upgrades, giving you the potential to apply better power suppliers, network devices and vibration control to achieve significant performance improvements. 

go 'ad-hoc' & simplify! less is better.

[Mark62]

1 hour ago, agillis said:

Bridging on Windows can be a bit complex to set up. We have the sonicTransporter i7 that has two Ethernet ports and built in bridging. It works very well and requires no special setup. A dedicated Roon server is always a good way to eliminate problems.

 

If you don't want to buy a new Roon server there is a cheaper option, a local switch. This one works really well and costs very little

 

https://www.amazon.com/TRENDnet-Unmanaged-GREENnet-Switching-Protection/dp/B001QUA6R0

 

I know there has been a lot of discussion in the thread about Ethernet switches. There are some other great options out there but nothing is better for the price then this TRENDnet.

 

Attach both your Roon server and your Rendu network player to this switch then run an Ethernet cable from it back to your router. If you don't have networking available in that location use a HomePlug adapter.

 

I recommend this setup to a lot of our customer who are using a sonicTransporter i5 (with only one Ethernet port) and it has resolved a lot of Roon stuttering problems.

 

We also sell a Linear supply that would power that switch if you need an inexpensive upgrade.

 

https://www.smallgreencomputer.com/collections/accessories/products/5v-15v-linear-power-supply-15w

 

 

Thanks Andrew.  Are you saying that running a line from a router to the switch you list, then lines from the switch to the PC that has the Roon Core and to the ultrarendu will result in the same sonic benefits that have been talked herein regarding bridging?  Prior to trying to get the bridge to work, I already had an Asus GX-D1051 v3  in the role you describe...so, you think that's good enough?  Functionally, it works great (and also sound great thanks the the ultraRendu!) - I was just trying to get the added sonic benefits these guys describe from bridging.

[auricgoldfinger]

Here is a better view showing the two DC cables involved. @elan120 @octaviars

[tims]

2 hours ago, auricgoldfinger said:

Here is a better view showing the two DC cables involved. @elan120 @octaviars

Hi @auricgoldfinger

Just trying to figure out what you want to do - are you going to feed the sCLK-ex board with its own external power supply, bypassing the 9v(?) Input from the sotm power board?

Thanks

[auricgoldfinger]

5 minutes ago, tims said:

Just trying to figure out what you want to do

 

I want to upgrade the DC wiring to thicker gauge silver wire.

[Mark62]

So, after all the various comments here and other places, as well as researching some things I didn't understand well (and am still no expert on) - what it looks like to me is that bridging ports leads to communications happening on Level 2 of the OSI model.  Given most switches also do this (with some also using level 3), connecting "router -> Switch -> Roon Core and also Roon Endpoint" should be equal to connecting "Router -> PC w/Roon Core on it + with virtual bridged ports -> Roon endpoint"...if the theory is right that the "not so good underlying comms" are an issue.

 

Anyone disagree?  If so...why?

 

Thanks!

[Johnseye]

7 hours ago, auricgoldfinger said:

I have a question for SOtM DIY experts:  Can anyone tell me the brand/model of the DC connectors shown in the photos?  I am looking for 2- and 4-pin versions.

 

 

 

This is what May linked me for the 2 pin. It's a Molex. 

 

https://www.digikey.kr/product-detail/ko/molex-llc/0050375023/WM18873-ND/280418

 

There is a comparable version on their US site. 

[elan120]

9 hours ago, auricgoldfinger said:

I have a question for SOtM DIY experts:  Can anyone tell me the brand/model of the DC connectors shown in the photos?  I am looking for 2- and 4-pin versions.

 

 

Just got some time to reply, and John is right, this is a Molex SPOX 5263/5264 series connectors.

 

Here is the link to the 2 pin connector housing:  https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/molex-llc/0050375023/WM18873-ND/280418

 

https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Molex/50-37-5023?qs=%2fha2pyFaduisWt94a8OgjEoApiagYBxbijA3U51rJRnIAZpTNTSgGg%3d%3d

 

 

Here is the link to the 4 pin connector housing:  https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/molex-llc/0050375043/WM17405-ND/259392

 

https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Molex/50-37-5043?qs=%2fha2pyFaduisWt94a8OgjJMimFPCrw7mErdTKL70gj%2fU%2bOorLaCLjg==

 

https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Molex/08-70-1040?qs=sGAEpiMZZMs%2bGHln7q6pm%2bS0pk2Wo0XxlsVVgyOJ5xA%3d

 

 

Here is the link to the crimp receptacle:  https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/molex-llc/0008701040/WM17406-ND/259393

 

https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Molex/08-70-1040?qs=sGAEpiMZZMs%2bGHln7q6pm%2bS0pk2Wo0XxlsVVgyOJ5xA%3d

 

 

Here is the link to the Molex crimper (don't look at the price - ouch):  https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/molex-llc/0640160201/WM17552-ND/2074098

 

 

 

[auricgoldfinger]

@Johnseye and @elan120 thank you both very much!

[octaviars]

Seems like I am late to the party @auricgoldfinger and you got the answers. Might I ask what type of wire you are going to use?

[auricgoldfinger]

7 hours ago, octaviars said:

Seems like I am late to the party @auricgoldfinger and you got the answers. Might I ask what type of wire you are going to use?

 

The plan is to try Neotech 16 AWG solid core silver.  I'll let you know how it goes.  It will be 4-6 weeks before I have an answer.

[lmitche]

14 hours ago, Mark62 said:

So, after all the various comments here and other places, as well as researching some things I didn't understand well (and am still no expert on) - what it looks like to me is that bridging ports leads to communications happening on Level 2 of the OSI model.  Given most switches also do this (with some also using level 3), connecting "router -> Switch -> Roon Core and also Roon Endpoint" should be equal to connecting "Router -> PC w/Roon Core on it + with virtual bridged ports -> Roon endpoint"...if the theory is right that the "not so good underlying comms" are an issue.

 

Anyone disagree?  If so...why?

 

Thanks!

Sorry Mark, your question is unclear. Yes bridging in the OS happens at level 2.  There is no theory there.

 

The wired bridging solution makes use of two ethernet ports connected to the bridged host and most people that have tried it claim it improves SQ. We don't know why. It could be less latency or that the NICs used in PCs are of higher quality then the NICs in a commodity switch. This solution also removes another power supply and therefore another potential source of ground loops and noise. My vote is for the latter, but that is a guess.

 

I am currently testing SQ of a software based 5ghz wireless access point running in a Roonserver/NUC streaming music to a Roonbridge/NUC. This creates a separate subnet for the Roonbridge/NUC and removes the latency from a switch or router between the two.

 

So far this is very promising as a DC power cable and USPCB to lps1.2 powered ISO regen are the only connections to the Roonbridge NUC. With isolation from the iso regen, and use of wireless Ethernet, no ground loops are possible.

 

Stay tuned,

 

Larry

[Mark62]

54 minutes ago, lmitche said:

Sorry Mark, your question is unclear. Yes bridging in the OS happens at level 2.  There is no theory there.

 

The wired bridging solution makes use of two ethernet ports connected to the bridged host and most people that have tried it claim it improves SQ. We don't know why. It could be less latency or that the NICs used in PCs are of higher quality then the NICs in a commodity switch. This solution also removes another power supply and therefore another potential source of ground loops and noise. My vote is for the latter, but that is a guess.

 

I am currently testing SQ of a software based 5ghz wireless access point running in a Roonserver/NUC streaming music to a Roonbridge/NUC. This creates a separate subnet for the Roonbridge/NUC and removes the latency from a switch or router between the two.

 

So far this is very promising as a DC power cable and USPCB to lps1.2 powered ISO regen are the only connections to the Roonbridge NUC. With isolation from the iso regen, and use of wireless Ethernet, no ground loops are possible.

 

Stay tuned,

 

Larry

 

Since my question wasn't clear, I'll restate it...on Page 1 of this thread, there was a theory put forward by @austinpop that essentially said if a setup did "not need to use the not-so-good" underlying comms layers, sound would be better through a device like a computer to rendu...and further that bridging achieved this.

 

My question (rephrased) was this:  "Does anyone disagree that if 2 approaches both do that, then (all else equal...for now) their sound should be equal if the underlying comms theory is correct"  (And I was adding that most switches stay at level 2 and bridges also operate at level 2, so...all else equal, there's no reason to expect them to sound different).

 

You added in latency, higher quality NIC's, and 1 less power supply as additional possible variables...good points, but I'd like to stick to the comms layer part for now in getting my question answered.

 

Thanks, Mark

[Superdad]

2 hours ago, auricgoldfinger said:

 

The plan is to try Neotech 16 AWG solid core silver.  I'll let you know how it goes.  It will be 4-6 weeks before I have an answer.

 

You are likely going to have trouble crimping or soldering 16awg wire onto the pins for Molex SPOX terminals. I think 18awg will be the max you can get in—and even that may be tough.

[auricgoldfinger]

6 minutes ago, Superdad said:

You are likely going to have trouble crimping or soldering 16awg wire onto the pins for Molex SPOX terminals. I think 18awg will be the max you can get in—and even that may be tough.

 

Thanks, Alex.  The wire diameter is definitely a concern.  Hopefully, we don't have to go smaller than 18awg, but even 20awg would be an improvement over what I have now.

[LTG2010]

37 minutes ago, auricgoldfinger said:

Thanks, Alex.  The wire diameter is definitely a concern.  Hopefully, we don't have to go smaller than 18awg, but even 20awg would be an improvement over what I have now.

I would solder a small piece of 20AWG to the terminal /connector then wrap the 20AWG round the end of your 16AWG and solder that as close as possible to the terminal - rather than drop down to 20AWG for the entire cable.

A better option is to solder the 16AWG directly under the terminal socket and bypass the connectors, I dont know how feasable that is for you.