A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming

[lmitche]

4 minutes ago, look&listen said:

 

 

Not talking about ldover modules, but MPAudio. Will you try removing output caps on you 3 amp Mpaudio lt3045 regulator?

The Mpaudio supply is in the dirty side powering my USB HDD and I expect to leave it there for now. Given this, there is no need for surgery at the moment.

 

I do have another lt3045 solution arriving soon that I am looking forward to testing as an alternative power source for the NUC.

[Cornan]

10 minutes ago, look&listen said:

 

 

Not talking about ldover modules, but MPAudio. Will you try removing output caps on you 3 amp Mpaudio lt3045 regulator?

Larry, I will surely support it and will follow that experiment. That does’nt mean that I think it is a good idea though. I’m still a aluminium polymer cap believer! ?

[Cornan]

12 minutes ago, sandyk said:

 

I note that several members (see above as well) have already removed some of the very low ESR capacitors that you love so much in favour of a more correct tonal presentation. Uptone has also previously distanced themselves from your advice in this area..   

All that you seem to be presenting is a way to further improve the HF area of a streaming service by artificially increasing HF detail. That doesn't say too much about the rest of your system either if you need to go to such lengths. 

 

Just because several ebay "Entrepreneurs"  have jumped on the multiple LT3045 area to make quick $$$ doesn't validate this as the best way to do things. Large numbers of parallel LT3045s and LARGE heatsinks that won't fit in a typical case and still have adequate ventilation is simply the flavour of the month and "Butt Ugly", although 2 parallel LT3045s used in order to increase it's capabilities to 1A is a good idea if correctly implemented.

The LT3045 does an excellent job in the areas it was originally designed to be used in though , such as a +3.3V low noise supply for the Input device of a DAC and the +3.3V digital supply for a DAC chip as I have done, or as a very good regulator as others have used it for in some of their products.  

 

 

You just cannot help to use HF (high frequency) as a negative issue can you? Why is it a negative thing in your mind? Especially when all the other frequencies are extremely satisfying

(according to me).

Why is your opinion worth more than mine in this matter? Is’nt this up to the ears of the beholder? The ears of other CA members? Why limit them with your beleifs only? Are you the supreme judge of high fidelity? I’m doubtful to say the least! ?

[sandyk]

41 minutes ago, Cornan said:

Why is your opinion worth more than mine in this matter?

 Unlike you, my comments in this area not only come from >60 years of practical experience in the construction of many different types of electronics devices, and learning from the various Electronic Magazine articles, but as well as regularly updated Technical training from Australia's Telstra where I was a Principal Telecommunications Technical Officer before retiring.

 Way back in 1954 when I was a trainee, we even constructed a 6VGT valve amplifier as a project at a Post Master General's Department Training School.

 

 Neither is it a good idea to " Daisy Chain" LT 3045s as you do as it degrades the earth reference and runs the risk of picking up unwanted RF/EMI.

 The output impedance of a power supply, especially for Analogue, should be as low and as flat as possible from virtually D.C. to >100KHZ, with 1MHZ even better. The LT3045 without additional parallel higher value non Low ESR electrolytic capacitors has a lower Z Out at  > 100KHZ which increases apparent HF detail and results in a tonal imbalance.

However it will help with 2 in parallel when used as a +5V regulator for powering internal SSDs in a P.C. from  the internal +12V SMPS supply provided that a Pre -regulator is used to reduce the voltage differential so as to prevent overheating of the LT3045s.

[austinpop]

@Cornan and @sandyk, enough arguing please.

 

In the spirit of this thread, everyone is welcome to report listening impressions, no matter how wacky or illogical the configuration. Whether or not anyone else feels compelled to try the same is up to them. I also have no problem if you post concerns and objections about the configuration.

 

But beyond that, it just becomes bickering, which needs to stop. 

 

Thanks for your understanding.

 

[mourip]

On 9/29/2018 at 11:13 AM, smodtactical said:

Guys I just got a denafrips terminator + HE9 and I am trying to optimize the sound. It sounds good out of the front of my desktop with usb but I have a feeling it can sound much better. I want to use my pc to control my music and if possible stick to foobar wasapi if I can. But I am willing to use other desktop software to control an external device.

These are the options I'm considering:

 

Do you recommend any of the following: 

1) iusb3.0 + igalvanic3.0
2) Singxer SU-1
3) Schiit eitr

 

Or totally separate devices

1) Aurender streamer
2) ultrarendu
3) Sotm sMS-200 Ultra

 

Which direction would you go?

 

Welcome to CA. Lots of good information here.

 

I would suggest that you start a fresh thread. This one is mostly about tweaking but has currently devolved into bickering.

[Cornan]

3 hours ago, austinpop said:

@Cornan and @sandyk, enough arguing please.

 

In the spirit of this thread, everyone is welcome to report listening impressions, no matter how wacky or illogical the configuration. Whether or not anyone else feels compelled to try the same is up to them. I also have no problem if you post concerns and objections about the configuration.

 

But beyond that, it just becomes bickering, which needs to stop. 

 

Thanks for your understanding.

 

 

Sorry Rajiv! I just could’nt resist when I was mensioned. 

[austinpop]

On 9/29/2018 at 10:13 AM, smodtactical said:

Guys I just got a denafrips terminator + HE9 and I am trying to optimize the sound. It sounds good out of the front of my desktop with usb but I have a feeling it can sound much better. I want to use my pc to control my music and if possible stick to foobar wasapi if I can. But I am willing to use other desktop software to control an external device.

These are the options I'm considering:

 

Do you recommend any of the following: 

1) iusb3.0 + igalvanic3.0
2) Singxer SU-1
3) Schiit eitr

 

Or totally separate devices

1) Aurender streamer
2) ultrarendu
3) Sotm sMS-200 Ultra

 

Which direction would you go?

 

Busy weekend for me, so was unable to answer. There is no one answer to this. If you haven't already, take a browse through the index in the first post of this thread to get the lay of the land.

 

I'll jump in with free advice - so take it for what it's worth. Given your DAC, which I know from my experience benefits from upsampling, I'd suggest the following.

1. Start with a music server machine (PC/Mac/NUC etc) that can run your favorite music server software (Roon, UPnP, A+, etc) and upsampling software (Roon, HQPlayer, etc). Upsample PCM to DXD (24/352.8/284) and DSD to DSD 256 and send to endpoint/NAA below
2. Use a good switch between the music server and the NAA. Right now, the TLS OCXO switch is a good value, powered by an LPS-1.2 or SR-4
3. From switch, next is a NUC-based endpoint. It looks like @lmitche's NUC booting audiolinux in ramboot mode is a real winner
4. From the NUC, go straight to the DAC over USB for now, but eventually get a SOtM tX-USBultra powered by LPS-1.2 or SR-4
5. At some point, if you like the progression of SQ, get a reference clock to drive the tX-USBultra

This is one path - of many.

[the_doc735]

1 hour ago, austinpop said:

1. use a good switch between the music server and the NAA. Right now, the TLS OCXO switch is a good value, powered by an LPS-1.2 or SR-4

Are those paul hynes LPSU's still available? I thought he only does the SR1's now?

[seeteeyou]

SOtM sCLK-OCX10 – A High Purity, 10 MHz Master Clock Generator
https://audiobacon.net/2018/09/26/sotm-sclk-ocx10-a-high-purity-10-mhz-master-clock-generator/

Quote

In Take Me to the River by Miss Cassidy, I didn’t realize how out-of-focus drums, piano keys, and voices were until I heard it on the sCLK-OCX10. The sound is more collected and congealed. Bass plays harder with more definition while it’s more soft and diffused without the clock. There’s also more textural alignment where subtleties in her voices and guitar strings are more delineated. The only tradeoff with the master clock seems to be a thinner, more laid-back midrange. Overall a superbly clean and impressively transparent presentation.

 

The Linear Solution OCXO Audiophile Switch & Reference Ethernet Cable – The Missing Pieces of Digital Audio
https://audiobacon.net/2018/09/28/the-linear-solution-ocxo-audiophile-switch-reference-ethernet-cable-the-missing-pieces-of-digital-audio/

Quote

Using different ethernet switches and cables on the Innuos changes the sound of the local files being played off its SSD hard drive. I know it doesn’t make any sense, but you could try it yourself. We’ve tested this on multiple systems.

 

Let's see who's gonna be the first to try AudioLinux in ramboot mode with an Innuos.

 

BTW, I wonder if adding a switch were similar to stuff like BGT (not Britain's Got Talent, it's Battery Ground Tweak) or otherwise

 

https://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/vt.mpl?f=tweaks&m=177294

https://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/vt.mpl?f=tweaks&m=198971

http://www.audiodirectionltd.com/-battery-ground-tweak-bgt.html

https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/parts/102180-groundside-electrons-53.html

https://iamyuanwu.wordpress.com/audio/audio-direction-ltd-adl/adls-battery-ground-tweak/

 

AMB's Sigma 11 seemed to benefit from those Mundorf caps so maybe we could also try them with BGT? Usually an Intel NUC would have two separate 3.5-mm ports so it doesn't cost much to make a pair with rechargeable coin cell batteries

 

https://post76.hk/thread-280619-1-1.html

http://www.yypa.hk/accessories/gnd-stabilizer.html

 

More pictures were found as well

 

https://post76.hk/thread-222583-1-1.html

https://post76.hk/thread-223525-1-1.html

[LTG2010]

5 minutes ago, seeteeyou said:

Let's see who's gonna be the first to try AudioLinux in ramboot mode with an Innuos

Yep, technically you only need plug in your monitor to the rear of the SE and USB keyboard. Boot into bios and change the boot order to boot from USB then plug in your Audiolinux USB. Pull out USB and then your back into the Innuos OS. No harm done....... ?

Anyone here brave enough ???

[Jiffi32]

4 hours ago, the_doc735 said:

Are those paul hynes LPSU's still available? I thought he only does the SR1's now?

 

SR4 is still available as far as I know, built in batches of 10 at the end of each month, i'm sure @paulhynes would be able to confirm for you if you pm him

[BigAlMc]

2 hours ago, seeteeyou said:

SOtM sCLK-OCX10 – A High Purity, 10 MHz Master Clock Generator
https://audiobacon.net/2018/09/26/sotm-sclk-ocx10-a-high-purity-10-mhz-master-clock-generator/

 

The Linear Solution OCXO Audiophile Switch & Reference Ethernet Cable – The Missing Pieces of Digital Audio
https://audiobacon.net/2018/09/28/the-linear-solution-ocxo-audiophile-switch-reference-ethernet-cable-the-missing-pieces-of-digital-audio/

 

 

 

Yeah Jay has been busy. As well as the sCLK-OCX10 & Linear Solutions switch reviews he did a review of the LPS1.2 and a comparison with the Paul Hynes SR4.

 

Cheers,

Alan

 

[lmitche]

2 hours ago, LTG2010 said:

Yep, technically you only need plug in your monitor to the rear of the SE and USB keyboard. Boot into bios and change the boot order to boot from USB then plug in your Audiolinux USB. Pull out USB and then your back into the Innuos OS. No harm done....... ?

Anyone here brave enough ???

My guess is that the best solution for those with an Innuos SE is to use it as a Roonserver, and then spend $230 for a NUC, ram and Audiolinux Headless configured as a Roonbridge. Lpses, USB treatments, cables ... are optional.

 

Nevertheless the Innuous should ramboot Roonserver from a usb stick just fine.

 

It's just that Roonserver ramboot is pretty ugly as the databases, software updates and config changes need to be stored on a non-volatile media. This makes the NUC Roonbridge solution very attractive as Roonserver database functions are separated into one box and streaming into the other.

 

Alternatively, one could argue that the Innuous hardware should sound better then a NUC, therefore use one to host Roonbridge, and use a NUC to host Roonserver. I have a $125 NUC with 4 gb ram hosting Roonserver on Audiolinux perfectly here. It boots Audiolinux from the usb hard disk hosting my music library.

[seeteeyou]

Or simply sell the Innuos before their Statement is available, then get double regulated 19V PSU from either Paul Hynes or Dr. Sean Jacobs to power NUC7CJYH afterwards.

 

If there were money left, ask Intel to provide the information about the clock(s) on NUC7CJYH and then find out which one is the most important. Replace that with an OCXO and see how it goes.

[lmitche]

9 minutes ago, seeteeyou said:

Or simply sell the Innuos before their Statement is available, then get double regulated 19V PSU from either Paul Hynes or Dr. Sean Jacobs to power NUC7CJYH afterwards.

 

If there were money left, ask Intel to provide the information about the clock(s) on NUC7CJYH and then find out which one is the most important. Replace that with an OCXO and see how it goes.

Isn't the clock on a SOC in the SOC?

[Confused]

An update on my adventures with the SOtM bundle, REF10 and MC3+USB.  I have had the Neo version of my sMS-200Ultra in my system for about a month now. As I posted a while ago, my initial impressions of the Neo were very positive, I definitely prefer it to the original version, which I struggled with due to what I considered to be an overly prominent HF and presence range. With the system back into what I consider a good balance, my plan was to stop tinkering and simply enjoy the music. This is exactly what I have been doing through September, but as often happens, it is when you stop A/B testing and fiddling with the kit, that you start to notice little things. Overall, the system is sounding great, the SOtM / Mutec kit is providing a far more balanced presentation with the Neo in place, details, dynamics, are all excellent. Just one little niggle. I had one weekend in early September where I had some decent listening sessions, I listened to a variety of music, and was just plain happy that things were sounding good, the Neo has definitely improved things. A couple of weeks later, another weekend with some decent listening time, and something was bothering me. With some tracks I was again finding the treble a little harsh, maybe even distorted. It seemed to depend on what I was listening to, so I did wonder if it was just a case of issues the source material, but it seemed a little strange that sometimes all sounded good, other times not so good. Last week something occurred to me, I was happy with the system when back with the microRendu, this was during August when the SOtM kit was back in Korea for the Neo upgrade and clock cable mods. During this time I tried the mR with the SOtM sPS-500 power supply, I found that I defiantly preferred the mR powered by the Uptone LPS-1, but the point is that it also occurred to me that the reason I did not like the sPS-500 providing the power was a sense of some slight distortion and HF harshness, exactly the issue I am now finding with the Neo.

So on Sunday I tried an experiment. In fact, this is re-trying something I did back in the Spring. I took the sPS-500 out of the system I powered the sMS-200Ultra and tX-USBultra from a 12 volt rechargeable battery pack that I have. Now this is not "high end" kit, it is a £20 battery pack with a cheap and spindly Y cable, the DC cable alone for the sPS-500 is many times more expensive. When I tried this before, in an attempt to tame the overly bright pre-Neo sMS-200ultra, it seemed to make little difference. With the more balanced sounding Neo, the difference seamed very clear to me, the HF distortion and harshness that was troubling me seamed very much diminished. Later on Sunday I managed to persuade a friend to have a listen. We played three tracks, I switched the power supply to the battery and played the same tracks again. My friend had no idea what I was changing so this was a blind test. Their verdict was something along the lines of "they sound pretty much the same but I thought that 2 was a bit clearer". OK - this is hardly a statistically significant double-blind test result, but it was significant enough to me that a third party, who had no prompting about my HF concerns, preferred a £20 battery pack to the £500 sPS-500. I left the SOtM kit on battery power for a while on Sunday, and I much enjoyed this as a set-up. Battery power should not be the best for digital audio, these devices need a very low output impedance that battery power does not provide. Yet despite this, both myself and my clueless buddy preferred the SOtM kit with battery power. It is a case of something in the HF being a little niggling, just that little bit annoying, which then detracts from enjoyment of the rest.

I had a plan that I would simply enjoy the system for a while, then maybe try the dCS Network Bridge (which my dealer has offered for a week’s loan), depending on how that comparison worked out, I would then maybe get some Paul Hynes SR-4's if I had decided to stick with the SOtM kit. I have now changed my mind, if I do the comparison with the dCS NB now, I am sure that I will inevitably focusing on the HF distortion issue, so may prefer the dCS for this reason alone, whereas this is an issue of the power supply, not the sMS & tX. So I have decided to take the plunge, order the SR-4's now, and hope for the best! Although I am pretty confident this one will work out well.

One question I have re the SR-4's, is what DC cable I should get.  I believe Paul offers either silver or copper, any preference between these two when powering the SOtM sMS-200Ultra and tX-USBultra?  Maybe I should just get the SR-4’s from Paul and the cables from someone else?  I am not an expert on DC cables, so open to suggestions here.

[auricgoldfinger]

23 minutes ago, seeteeyou said:

get double regulated 19V PSU from either Paul Hynes or Dr. Sean Jacobs

 

Adrian at TLS also has a new flagship double regulated PSU which is sounding very nice (based on early impressions) powering my OCX10.  He will customize to suit your needs.  @allaboutacoustic

[seeteeyou]

22 minutes ago, lmitche said:

Isn't the clock on a SOC in the SOC?

 

This one is also based on NUC7CJYSAL / NUC7CJYH according to @romaz and most likely $55 Connor-Winfield OH4610LF-025.0M (with ±10ppb) should work

 

https://thelinearsolution.com/streamer.html

Quote

Optional OCXO Ethernet OR USB

 

There's also OH300 series (with ±5ppb) and that's still less than $100 a pop

 

https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/connor-winfield/OH300-50503CF-025.0M/CW943TR-ND/7691406

https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/connor-winfield/OH300-50503CF-025.0M/CW943CT-ND/7691417

https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/connor-winfield/OH300-50503CF-025.0M/CW943DKR-ND/7691427

[lmitche]

1 minute ago, seeteeyou said:

 

This one is also based on NUC7CJYH according to @romaz and most likely $55 Connor-Winfield OH4610LF-025.0M (with ±10ppb) should work

 

https://thelinearsolution.com/streamer.html

 

There's also OH300 series (with ±5ppb) and that's still less than $100 a pop

 

https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/connor-winfield/OH300-50503CF-025.0M/CW943TR-ND/7691406

https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/connor-winfield/OH300-50503CF-025.0M/CW943CT-ND/7691417

https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/connor-winfield/OH300-50503CF-025.0M/CW943DKR-ND/7691427

Yes that makes my point. The CPU clock is in the SOC.

[seeteeyou]

5 minutes ago, lmitche said:

Yes that makes my point. The CPU clock is in the SOC.

 

Then what's the point of mentioning CPU clock in the first place then? There's really not much (if anything) we could do about it.

 

Some of us might still wanna use Gigabit Ethernet, then it's gonna make sense to replace that particular clock with an OCXO.

 

If not, there's also USB 3.1 Gen 1 and it's safer to check with Intel in order to confirm the frequency. For instance, sometimes we might be dealing with stuff like this

 

http://www.asmedia.com.tw/eng/e_products_list.php?item=83&cate_index=0

Quote

Support 20/25/30MHz with external crystal mode or 30MHz with Clock input

 

Adrian actually wrote "Ethernet OR USB" on his site so that might imply two separate clocks if I weren't mistaken.

[rafa]

Guys, anybody compared Sotm SATA filter vs good power regulator to feed your SSD?

 

I am wondering is it still worth to replace filter, which I am currently using and use VR based on LT3045 instead.

[lmitche]

17 minutes ago, seeteeyou said:

Then what's the point of mentioning CPU clock in the first place then? There's really not much (if anything) we could do about it.

My first post was a question. Your post suggested an answer by implication through Adrian's site where the CPU clock was missing from the list. My last post just made the answer explicit. What's wrong with that?

[Confused]

I asked earlier about any advice re DC cables for a Paul Hynes SR4 to a sMS-200Ultra and also SR4 to tXUSBultra.  Looking at Paul's price list, the cables are available in 0.2m or 0.5m length.  I could make 0.2m work, but 0.5m might be better just for the layout of kit on my rack (and keep the sensitive electronics away from the LPSU).  Is there any disadvantage to using the longer (0.5m) DC cable from a sound quality point of view?

[stinart]

4 hours ago, Confused said:

4 hours ago, Confused said:

An update on my adventures with the SOtM bundle, REF10 and MC3+USB.  I have had the Neo version of my sMS-200Ultra in my system for about a month now. As I posted a while ago, my initial impressions of the Neo were very positive, I definitely prefer it to the original version, which I struggled with due to what I considered to be an overly prominent HF and presence range. With the system back into what I consider a good balance, my plan was to stop tinkering and simply enjoy the music. This is exactly what I have been doing through September, but as often happens, it is when you stop A/B testing and fiddling with the kit, that you start to notice little things. Overall, the system is sounding great, the SOtM / Mutec kit is providing a far more balanced presentation with the Neo in place, details, dynamics, are all excellent. Just one little niggle. I had one weekend in early September where I had some decent listening sessions, I listened to a variety of music, and was just plain happy that things were sounding good, the Neo has definitely improved things. A couple of weeks later, another weekend with some decent listening time, and something was bothering me. With some tracks I was again finding the treble a little harsh, maybe even distorted. It seemed to depend on what I was listening to, so I did wonder if it was just a case of issues the source material, but it seemed a little strange that sometimes all sounded good, other times not so good. Last week something occurred to me, I was happy with the system when back with the microRendu, this was during August when the SOtM kit was back in Korea for the Neo upgrade and clock cable mods. During this time I tried the mR with the SOtM sPS-500 power supply, I found that I defiantly preferred the mR powered by the Uptone LPS-1, but the point is that it also occurred to me that the reason I did not like the sPS-500 providing the power was a sense of some slight distortion and HF harshness, exactly the issue I am now finding with the Neo.

So on Sunday I tried an experiment. In fact, this is re-trying something I did back in the Spring. I took the sPS-500 out of the system I powered the sMS-200Ultra and tX-USBultra from a 12 volt rechargeable battery pack that I have. Now this is not "high end" kit, it is a £20 battery pack with a cheap and spindly Y cable, the DC cable alone for the sPS-500 is many times more expensive. When I tried this before, in an attempt to tame the overly bright pre-Neo sMS-200ultra, it seemed to make little difference. With the more balanced sounding Neo, the difference seamed very clear to me, the HF distortion and harshness that was troubling me seamed very much diminished. Later on Sunday I managed to persuade a friend to have a listen. We played three tracks, I switched the power supply to the battery and played the same tracks again. My friend had no idea what I was changing so this was a blind test. Their verdict was something along the lines of "they sound pretty much the same but I thought that 2 was a bit clearer". OK - this is hardly a statistically significant double-blind test result, but it was significant enough to me that a third party, who had no prompting about my HF concerns, preferred a £20 battery pack to the £500 sPS-500. I left the SOtM kit on battery power for a while on Sunday, and I much enjoyed this as a set-up. Battery power should not be the best for digital audio, these devices need a very low output impedance that battery power does not provide. Yet despite this, both myself and my clueless buddy preferred the SOtM kit with battery power. It is a case of something in the HF being a little niggling, just that little bit annoying, which then detracts from enjoyment of the rest.

I had a plan that I would simply enjoy the system for a while, then maybe try the dCS Network Bridge (which my dealer has offered for a week’s loan), depending on how that comparison worked out, I would then maybe get some Paul Hynes SR-4's if I had decided to stick with the SOtM kit. I have now changed my mind, if I do the comparison with the dCS NB now, I am sure that I will inevitably focusing on the HF distortion issue, so may prefer the dCS for this reason alone, whereas this is an issue of the power supply, not the sMS & tX. So I have decided to take the plunge, order the SR-4's now, and hope for the best! Although I am pretty confident this one will work out well.

One question I have re the SR-4's, is what DC cable I should get.  I believe Paul offers either silver or copper, any preference between these two when powering the SOtM sMS-200Ultra and tX-USBultra?  Maybe I should just get the SR-4’s from Paul and the cables from someone else?  I am not an expert on DC cables, so open to suggestions here.

 

 

Are you sure you are not having any drawbacks from moving to battery power?  I have the 200 ultra (upgraded to neo) powered by sps 500 and because my job is  related to energy , i ' ve tried powering sotm with several types of 12v batteries  even expensive ones using good quality dc cable ,  but always with  disappointing results :   hazy  sound and "wooly"  bass.  Not even a contest for sps500

 

I am not  questioning  your findings ,  but the truth is  i never liked consumer class batteries on audio devices except switches which you can hear the improvement over stock ps