A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming

[romaz]

All your work on clocks brings back some recollection of when I had a Buffalo 32 Diy dac. I loved that dac it was my 1st real life diy project. It wasn't that complicated . All I had to do was assemble the power supplies and mount everything on a board. I never put the module in a case, although I bought a case. So I left all the dac components fully exposed including the clocks. Anyway I remember going through a phase wherein I tried different levels of sound deadening material pressed onto the clocks. Darn if that didn't make an improved difference as it should. So today I fixed some sound deadening material (mortite) on top of the last clock prior to my dac (the microRendu). I think it makes a difference. So Romaz have you tried this? Or said another way could you try?

Let me consult with SOtM but it seems inexpensive and easy enough to try. It makes sense that there could be benefit.

[romaz]

I wonder if another option would be an EMO EN-70HD between your Mini and your modified Trendnet. This would give you another layer of galvanic isolation, but still have 3 "best" clocks between it and the DAC to recover any poor clocking.

 

Might be worth a try?

I don't have an EMO but I do have an SOtM iSO-CAT6 which is also a passive isolation transformer that operates at gigabit bandwidth:

 

 

Around the time that I was sensing this irritating HF noise (that later turned out to be coming from the PCIe SSD drive), I inserted this device into the "direct" connection path and if it resulted in any improvement, it was very minor and it could have been imagined. Even after I switched back to El Capitan on an SD card, I kept it in the chain but more recently I swapped it out for the Paul Pang switch and the Paul Pang switch resulted in a much more obvious improvement. In my system, the jury is still out on the value of this device but at least I know it doesn't negatively impact SQ either. For now, I have placed it back in its original position between my router and Mac Mini (more for peace of mind than because of any perceived improvement). What I am finding to be more effective is SOtM's CAT 6 cable with its smoother presentation. It is better than my BJC CAT6A but we are talking fairly minor differences.

[romaz]

Hi Romaz,

 

On the lower left corner there's a rectangular silver top with golden edge, it looks like an OSC. Do you know what is it for? Thanks a lot for sharing it.

I'm not sure what that is. It's unlikely to be a master oscillator because of its location (I would think that you would want it as close to the other clocks as possible). You can probably see the gold input along the left border of the board. I believe that is the external master clock input for those who wish to use an atomic clock (debatable whether that would be better for audio or not). The clock connectors are U.FL connectors and the clock cables are silver-plated copper. There is the option to use UP-OCC silver internal DC cabling ($70) vs the stock UP-OCC copper DC cabling to power the clock. I stayed with stock UP-OCC copper because for such a short run, I wasn't sure it would make much difference but I love that they give you the option and that they purposely use single crystal silver or copper. Needless to say, they consider the smallest details.

[austinpop]

I don't have an EMO but I do have an SOtM iSO-CAT6 which is also a passive isolation transformer that operates at gigabit bandwidth:

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]33741[/ATTACH]

[ATTACH=CONFIG]33743[/ATTACH]

 

Around the time that I was sensing this irritating HF noise (that later turned out to be coming from the PCIe SSD drive), I inserted this device into the "direct" connection path and if it resulted in any improvement, it was very minor and it could have been imagined. Even after I switched back to El Capitan on an SD card, I kept it in the chain but more recently I swapped it out for the Paul Pang switch and the Paul Pang switch resulted in a much more obvious improvement. In my system, the jury is still out on the value of this device but at least I know it doesn't negatively impact SQ either. For now, I have placed it back in its original position between my router and Mac Mini (more for peace of mind than because of any perceived improvement). What I am finding to be more effective is SOtM's CAT 6 cable with its smoother presentation. It is better than my BJC CAT6A but we are talking fairly minor differences.

 

Ok - yup, that covers that angle.

[gadgetman]

I'm not sure what that is. It's unlikely to be a master oscillator because of its location (I would think that you would want it as close to the other clocks as possible). You can probably see the gold input along the left border of the board. I believe that is the external master clock input for those who wish to use an atomic clock (debatable whether that would be better for audio or not). The clock connectors are U.FL connectors and the clock cables are silver-plated copper. There is the option to use UP-OCC silver internal DC cabling ($70) vs the stock UP-OCC copper DC cabling to power the clock. I stayed with stock UP-OCC copper because for such a short run, I wasn't sure it would make much difference but I love that they give you the option and that they purposely use single crystal silver or copper. Needless to say, they consider the smallest details.

Looking forward to your listening impression.

 

By the way if you are interested in an external OCXO reference, Cybershaft has some options that might fit your need. I bought this one ’´‚¸“xOCXOƒNƒƒbƒN Premium to pair with Mutec MC3+ USB for Hugo before I got DAVE. It's a true bargain.

 

p.s. Sorry for the above seemingly meaningless link. It should be Japanese.

[jamesg11]

Gigabyte GA-H110TN motherboard - has no DPLLs, or just less?

[romaz]

Looking forward to your listening impression.

 

By the way if you are interested in an external OCXO reference, Cybershaft has some options that might fit your need. I bought this one ’´‚¸“xOCXOƒNƒƒbƒN Premium to pair with Mutec MC3+ USB for Hugo before I got DAVE. It's a true bargain.

 

p.s. Sorry for the above seemingly meaningless link. It should be Japanese.

I've seen the threads on the Cybershaft. By numerous accounts including your own, sounds like a great clock and yes, at 10MHz only, they could serve only as a master clock. Obviously, I would love to know if it would improve upon the stock sCLK-EX. Chan King Girand Michel, owner of Pachanko Cables, had Paul Pang's 24MHz OCXO clocking his USB card and found the sCLK-EX to be better and so he moved to it. That is the only direct comparison I know that anyone has made against OCXO and I hope it is true because it would make life much simpler for me not to have to worry about an external clock.

[romaz]

Gigabyte GA-H110TN motherboard - has no DPLLs, or just less?

 

Unfortunately, it still has plenty of DPLLs (SATA, USB, PCIe) that can't be touched although it has more replaceable clocks at key locations than other motherboards that I have found. It's unfortunate there isn't a true audiophile class motherboard for DIY builders.

[romaz]

For those interested in knowing how to replace a motherboard clock, here's a video Paul Pang made a few years ago:

 

https://onedrive.live.com/?authkey=%21ALk7X_kCidy7MRc&cid=4A6A8FBC430FC31C&id=4A6A8FBC430FC31C%211699&parId=4A6A8FBC430FC31C%21248&o=OneUp

 

SHOPPING AREA: Clock Upgrade Module for Main Board

[lmitche]

Just push it on the outer case of the clock (if you have access to it) hard enough so that it sticks.

Here is an interesting picture. Does Moretite melt with heat?

 

http://spectrum.ieee.org/ns/images/jun05/images/ngeekf2.jpg

[Theobetley]

Here is an interesting picture. Does Moretite melt with heat?

 

http://spectrum.ieee.org/ns/images/jun05/images/ngeekf2.jpg

Let me put it this way I have not seen any evidence of this after using it for years. Btw the pic you referenced in my opinion shows too much mortite. Just a little dab is what I have used. I certainly would not let it overlap onto a circuit board.

[shoom]

Here in the UK I’ve used ‘’Blue tack’’ on my WAVEIO boardclocks and found a small difference.

 

It’s pretty heat resistant but agree with Theo that a small blob on the XO case is all that’s needed and not the huge lump shown in the picture above.:-)

 

[dimbulb]

Unfortunately, it still has plenty of DPLLs (SATA, USB, PCIe) that can't be touched although it has more replaceable clocks at key locations than other motherboards that I have found. It's unfortunate there isn't a true audiophile class motherboard for DIY builders.

 

+1 on that, and thanks for letting me in with your posts.

[dimbulb]

Here is an interesting picture. Does Moretite melt with heat?

 

http://spectrum.ieee.org/ns/images/jun05/images/ngeekf2.jpg

 

Check out a product called "Dynamat". Its made for car audio and wont melt in extreme heat. I used it in competition car audio vehicles when I competed in Arizona. They also made a paint back then that worked very well for deadening vibration.

[lmitche]

Check out a product called "Dynamat". Its made for car audio and wont melt in extreme heat. I used it in competition car audio vehicles when I competed in Arizona. They also made a paint back then that worked very well for deadening vibration.

Dynamite!

[warpeon]

Romaz, very interesting. Was wondering if you have consider this new computer you building would replace your NAS? By replacing the system and LAN clocks, this should ensure greater accuracy streamed to your end-point directly, given there are 2 LAN ports.

[greenleo]

Romaz, very interesting. Was wondering if you have consider this new computer you building would replace your NAS? By replacing the system and LAN clocks, this should ensure greater accuracy streamed to your end-point directly, given there are 2 LAN ports.

is Romaz using NAS? Would an NAS that run so many things at the same time give negative impacts to the SQ?

[romaz]

Romaz, very interesting. Was wondering if you have consider this new computer you building would replace your NAS? By replacing the system and LAN clocks, this should ensure greater accuracy streamed to your end-point directly, given there are 2 LAN ports.

I do have a NAS and I use it as a backup source and for comparison testing. I currently get better sound now from local playback then from my NAS although my NAS isn't optimized in any way. I have contemplated "directly connecting" to my NAS via bridging with my upcoming build since I will have 4 ethernet ports but I suspect this direct connection would only reveal all of my NAS's faults unless I spend the effort to optimize it and since my music collection currently fits on my 4TB SSD (which is a little more than half full), I haven't felt compelled to go the extra mile to improve my NAS.

 

I am presently inclined to move completely to compact flash storage using a series of 512GB compact flash cards. It turns out the type 1 compact flash cards draw considerably less power than all SDXC cards (up to 10x less!) and thus far, I am finding a 32GB CF card to sound better (by a small but very noticeable margin) than any SD or microSD card that I have.

[jamesg11]

Hmm. Which 512gb CF card? Interesting.

[romaz]

Hmm. Which 512gb CF card? Interesting.

 

Right now, only Lexar makes them (the VPG-20). They've been discontinued but I found a distributor that has a stash of them.

[greenleo]

Right now, only Lexar makes them (the VPG-20). They've been discontinued but I found a distributor that has a stash of them.

 

Do you need a SATA adapter for the CF cards?

 

I believe Pang advised to use CF as disk drive as well for its smallest electrical noise long time ago.

[romaz]

Do you need a SATA adapter for the CF cards?

 

I believe Pang advised to use CF as disk drive as well for its smallest electrical noise long time ago.

CF type 1 cards are permitted to draw up to a max of 0.07A per spec. CF type 2 cards are allowed to draw up to 0.5A and so those should be avoided. I have noticed some SDXC cards can draw as much as 0.6A and so a 64GB SDXC card potentially could draw nearly 10x more current than even a 512GB type 1 CF card! SD cards consume fewer watts than SSDs but because most SD cards are 3.3V devices (as opposed to 5V devices), the more power hungry SD cards (the very fastest ones) actually draw the same amount of current as an SSD. Regardless, I am finding an SDXC card to have none of the HF issues as my SSD but to put this in proper context, when connected via my Pachanko SATA Reference cable and when powered by my LPS-1, SSD still sounds very good and so I will need to weigh the conveniences and much higher capacity of an SSD vs the slightly better SQ of CF and SD cards when used as a music storage drive. As for the OS, I'm fairly certain I will be going with CF SLC.

 

Yes, I plan to interface my CF cards via SATA using devices like the following. The top device will be used for my OS drive:

 

This is the Lexar reader I am using now to do my testing:

 

 

Mine connects via USB 3.0 and contains both SD and CF readers and so I can do easy A/B comparisons. I am not presently using an audiophile-grade USB 3.0 cable and so I'm sure SQ could improve further. The nice thing about this reader is that you can power it with an LPS-1 at 5V and not surprisingly, it makes a difference vs the stock switching wall wart and also against a bus-powered reader that I have. I will see how it compares against the internal devices I listed above which connects via the lower latency SATA bus compared to USB. The internal device that I plan to use for my OS drive also contains a replaceable clock and I am intrigued to know whether replacing this clock will result in further improvement.

[warpeon]

I do have a NAS and I use it as a backup source and for comparison testing. I currently get better sound now from local playback then from my NAS although my NAS isn't optimized in any way. I have contemplated "directly connecting" to my NAS via bridging with my upcoming build since I will have 4 ethernet ports but I suspect this direct connection would only reveal all of my NAS's faults unless I spend the effort to optimize it and since my music collection currently fits on my 4TB SSD (which is a little more than half full), I haven't felt compelled to go the extra mile to improve my NAS.

 

I am presently inclined to move completely to compact flash storage using a series of 512GB compact flash cards. It turns out the type 1 compact flash cards draw considerably less power than all SDXC cards (up to 10x less!) and thus far, I am finding a 32GB CF card to sound better (by a small but very noticeable margin) than any SD or microSD card that I have.

 

Gotcha. I have slim down my music collection to around 1T on my 2bay Synology in SSD. I am relying the remaining music on Tidal. I view in the future, I will rely on Tidal and likes more. The NAS will b for those rare ones that I have but Tidal doesn't have (e.g. A vinyl rip from friend or some others).

 

That's why I am thinking to build a better NAS as source for my streamer/DAC. Otherwise, I will likely go for the ready built stuff, melco, aurender, etc.

 

 

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[Nouchka]

So, you prefer Tidal over an optimized NAS, is that regarding sound quality, usability or the catalogue?

 

CAT

 

Gotcha. I have slim down my music collection to around 1T on my 2bay Synology in SSD. I am relying the remaining music on Tidal. I view in the future, I will rely on Tidal and likes more. The NAS will b for those rare ones that I have but Tidal doesn't have (e.g. A vinyl rip from friend or some others).

 

That's why I am thinking to build a better NAS as source for my streamer/DAC. Otherwise, I will likely go for the ready built stuff, melco, aurender, etc.

 

 

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[warpeon]

Cause I haven't optimized my NAS, I find most of my red book rips aren't that better than tidal Hi-Fi. So didn't bother. That's why I am exploring an optimized NAS, especially SSD prices has become a lot more reasonable. A 2T ssd is entering the affordable category

 

 

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