A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming

[austinpop]

10 minutes ago, Bruce Orr said:

 

Relative to Roon Core not on the SE; and relative to the library not being on SE

 

Ah I see.

 

Echoing @BigAlMc - I have consistently gotten best SQ with Roon Core on SE, and music on local SSD. And keep in mind, this is while being fortunate to try great switches like the SOtM and TLS.

 

I realize that since I'm always experimenting and trying new configurations, I may have confused you as to my baseline.

 

For now, I get best SQ with:

1. Roon Core on SE
2. music on local SSD
3. no upsampling - all music played at native resolution - this is of course because of my DAC's preference for native content.

Hope that clarifies things.

[Bruce Orr]

13 minutes ago, austinpop said:

 

Ah I see.

 

Echoing @BigAlMc - I have consistently gotten best SQ with Roon Core on SE, and music on local SSD. And keep in mind, this is while being fortunate to try great switches like the SOtM and TLS.

 

I realize that since I'm always experimenting and trying new configurations, I may have confused you as to my baseline.

 

For now, I get best SQ with:

1. Roon Core on SE
2. music on local SSD
3. no upsampling - all music played at native resolution - this is of course because of my DAC's preference for native content.

Hope that clarifies things.

 

BigAl and Rajiv - thanks!  I get it. Slow learner here!  

[BigAlMc]

11 minutes ago, elan120 said:

Very nice looking cable.  Looking forward to your impression when you get it.

 

I am currently using the JSSG version of this cable, and curious how the JSSG360 compares and wonder if SOtM dCBL-CAT7 will be better still?

 

I have a couple of the JSSG versions too so can try to compare.

 

They got repurposed to non Audio duties when I bought the Sablon and currently link my non-Audio switch to my TV PVR and my Oppo blu ray player.

 

I balked at the price of the SoTM cable tho.

[elan120]

5 minutes ago, BigAlMc said:

 

I have a couple of the JSSG versions too so can try to compare.

 

They got repurposed to non Audio duties when I bought the Sablon and currently link my non-Audio switch to my TV PVR and my Oppo blu ray player.

 

I balked at the price of the SoTM cable tho.

TIA...could not agree more on SOtM cable price, especially if one is to go for their "ultimate" setup.

[tedwoods]

11 hours ago, elan120 said:

TIA...could not agree more on SOtM cable price, especially if one is to go for their "ultimate" setup.

It would be a great idea if they ever considered releasing the filter they use on dCBL-CAT7 and dCBL-UF as a stand-alone product with either ethernet jacks (like their iSO-CAT6 offering) or USB jacks.

I honestly don't know if what I'm proposing is even technically feasible, but this way more people could benefit from the use of these filters, without the need to use SOtM's own cables (which are excellent in their own right), should they want to spend a bit less overall or even try experimenting with other cable combos.

I think I might know a potential client or two...?

[Confused]

I have spent my first morning listening to the sMS-200Ultra Neo, initial listening impressions here: 

 

I

[lmitche]

NUC update:

 

The NUC7CJYS had it's fan removed and is housed in a dimunitive Akasa fanless case. Temps have dropped 2 degrees C andSQ is a touch more refined. The use of the WiFi card antenna and dual microphones is lost in this transfer. 

 

The OS is configured to boot in command line mode which prevents start-up of the GPU, with another SQ increase evident.  Roon is running in NOS mode as is my DAC. I can't find an upsampling resolution that improves SQ from native.

 

The soundstage is wide open and transparent especially in the presence range. Simultaneously, top and bottom extension is the best I've heard here, with loud and deep bass that surprises on some well known classical tracks.

 

A touch more sparkle in the top end would be desirable, and I'm working on a cleaner power source to reach this next goal.

 

Stay tuned ,

 

Larry

[austinpop]

3 hours ago, Confused said:

I have spent my first morning listening to the sMS-200Ultra Neo, initial listening impressions here: 

 

I

 

Nice report. So Neo IS the One? ? 

 

Look forward to the Ref 10 and PSU findings.

[seeteeyou]

Now we've got the perfect combo

 

 

 

BTW, do you guys know the "right" answer?

 

https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/30376-a-novel-way-to-massively-improve-the-sq-of-computer-audio-streaming/?page=361&tab=comments#comment-860647

On 8/10/2018 at 3:13 PM, romaz said:

Yes, this uses a better board than my own as it uses a Celeron with a larger secondary cache which should result in less latency.  It also utilizes DDR4 RAM instead of DDR3.  At this point, I do not know which type of RAM is lower latency.

 

So far I could only find stuff like this

 

http://www.crucial.com/usa/en/memory-performance-speed-latency

[davide256]

2 hours ago, lmitche said:

NUC update:

 

The NUC7CJYS had it's fan removed and is housed in a dimunitive Akasa fanless case. Temps have dropped 2 degrees C andSQ is a touch more refined. The use of the WiFi card antenna and dual microphones is lost in this transfer. 

 

The OS is configured to boot in command line mode which prevents start-up of the GPU, with another SQ increase evident.  Roon is running in NOS mode as is my DAC. I can't find an upsampling resolution that improves SQ from native.

 

The soundstage is wide open and transparent especially in the presence range. Simultaneously, top and bottom extension is the best I've heard here, with loud and deep bass that surprises on some well known classical tracks.

 

A touch more sparkle in the top end would be desirable, and I'm working on a cleaner power source to reach this next goal.

 

Stay tuned ,

 

Larry

luck on that one... after a year of swapping components around I've finally isolated lack of "sparkle/air" to be my DAC's fault.

[seeteeyou]

I was looking at 2-bay NAS and some of them actually got an Intel Celeron processor. In other words, we could install Roon Core on either QNAP or Synology and then use our NAS as a Roon Bridge instead.

 

http://kb.roonlabs.com/Roon_Server_on_NAS

https://community.roonlabs.com/t/synology-ds215-as-a-roon-bridge/43466

Quote

QNAP HS-251+ is now acting as a roon bridge in my system. of course I’ve installed the roon server on it, but just don’t login to it. I keep my main roon server on more powerful TVS-882. FYI.

 

There are quite a few models with Celeron out there, watch out for the plus signs or else you'll get an ARM processor instead

 

https://www.span.com/PLEX_NAS_compatibility_list/QNAP

Quote

HS-251+ (J1900)
TS-251 (J1800)
TS-251+ (J1900)
TS-251A (N3060)
TS-253 Pro (J1900)
TS-253A (N3150)
TS-253B (J3455)
TS-253Be (J3455)

 

https://www.synology.com/en-global/knowledgebase/DSM/tutorial/General/What_kind_of_CPU_does_my_NAS_have

Quote

 

DS218+ (J3355)
DS216+II (N3060)
DS216+ (N3050)

 

 

Granted neither brand could be "hacked" to run an operating system entirely from RAM, though we could still uninstall any packages that aren't needed for Roon

 

https://www.synology.com/en-global/knowledgebase/DSM/help/DSM/PkgManApp/manage

 

For instance, the motherboard of Synology DS216+ should be VERY simple without any unnecessary components such as on-board audio and video etc.

 

 

Just one front USB port, 2 rear USB ports, 1 LAN port, 1 eSATA port, and DC power input

 

 

Two separate clocks appeared to share the same H255L label, therefore presumably both of them could be replaced by Connor-Winfield OH4610LF-025.0M @ $55 a piece

 

https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/connor-winfield/OH4610LF-025.0M/CW899-ND/5641634

 

 

 

There might be possibly one more clock on the other side of the motherboard, though it's hard to tell since the resolution of the following picture wasn't high enough

 

 

Relatively speaking, it's really MUCH simpler when compared to an Intel NUC but obviously the "magic sauce" might not be there.

 

BTW, there are quite a few eMMC drives available that aren't too expensive while they also have an adapter for micro SD

 

https://www.pine64.org/?product=16gb-emmc

https://www.pine64.org/?product=32gb-emmc

https://www.pine64.org/?product=64gb-emmc

https://ameridroid.com/products/emmc-adapter

https://ameridroid.com/products/emmc-module-for-rock64-pine-a64-lts-odroid-c-series

 

After that, we could even "convert" micro SD into SATA with an enclosure like this

 

https://www.gearbest.com/hdd-enclosure/pp_1719293.html

I also found other eMMC drives with a different interface and I "guess" that might also work for motherboards with Mini-PCIe slots like Supermicro X10SBA, though not sure if that were bootable or otherwise

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Dell-Inspiron-11-3157-32GB-eMMC-SanDisk-Storage-Drive-Module-Card-CHB02-45WM6/122391491064
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Dell-Inspiron-11-3157-32GB-eMMC-SK-Hynix-Storage-Drive-Module-Card-CHA01-45WM6/112858480525

[lmitche]

56 minutes ago, seeteeyou said:

I was looking at 2-bay NAS and some of them actually got an Intel Celeron processor. In other words, we could install Roon Core on either QNAP or Synology and then use our NAS as a Roon Bridge instead.

 

http://kb.roonlabs.com/Roon_Server_on_NAS

https://community.roonlabs.com/t/synology-ds215-as-a-roon-bridge/43466

 

There are quite a few models with Celeron out there, watch out for the plus signs or else you'll get an ARM processor instead

 

https://www.span.com/PLEX_NAS_compatibility_list/QNAP

 

https://www.synology.com/en-global/knowledgebase/DSM/tutorial/General/What_kind_of_CPU_does_my_NAS_have

 

Granted neither brand could be "hacked" to run an operating system entirely from RAM, though we could still uninstall any packages that aren't needed for Roon

 

https://www.synology.com/en-global/knowledgebase/DSM/help/DSM/PkgManApp/manage

 

For instance, the motherboard of Synology DS216+ should be VERY simple without any unnecessary components such as on-board audio and video etc.

 

 

Just one front USB port, 2 rear USB ports, 1 LAN port, 1 eSATA port, and DC power input

 

 

Two separate clocks appeared to share the same H255L label, therefore presumably both of them could be replaced by Connor-Winfield OH4610LF-025.0M @ $55 a piece

 

https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/connor-winfield/OH4610LF-025.0M/CW899-ND/5641634

 

 

 

There might be possibly one more clock on the other side of the motherboard, though it's hard to tell since the resolution of the following picture wasn't high enough

 

 

Relatively speaking, it's really MUCH simpler when compared to an Intel NUC but obviously the "magic sauce" might not be there.

 

BTW, there are quite a few eMMC drives available that aren't too expensive while they also have an adapter for micro SD

 

https://www.pine64.org/?product=16gb-emmc

https://www.pine64.org/?product=32gb-emmc

https://www.pine64.org/?product=64gb-emmc

https://ameridroid.com/products/emmc-adapter

https://ameridroid.com/products/emmc-module-for-rock64-pine-a64-lts-odroid-c-series

 

After that, we could even "convert" micro SD into SATA with an enclosure like this

 

https://www.gearbest.com/hdd-enclosure/pp_1719293.html

I also found other eMMC drives with a different interface and I "guess" that might also work for motherboards with Mini-PCIe slots like Supermicro X10SBA, though not sure if that were bootable or otherwise

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Dell-Inspiron-11-3157-32GB-eMMC-SanDisk-Storage-Drive-Module-Card-CHB02-45WM6/122391491064
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Dell-Inspiron-11-3157-32GB-eMMC-SK-Hynix-Storage-Drive-Module-Card-CHA01-45WM6/112858480525

CTU, a couple things. The qnap ts-251+ is indeed a terrific Nas for audio as it is fanless, holds two drives for raid operation and the qnap OS supports bridging the two nics right in the GUI. It also runs Windows and Audiolinux, and reacts well to power supply upgrades. If running an alternative OS removing the USB DOM reduces noise significantly.

 

With Audiolinux booting from ram drive it would be simple enough to boot from a USB hard disk into ram and then use the rest of the disk for music storage. In this way there is no need for emmc. This puts the NUC solution at $377 = $120(NUC barebones) + $160(16 gb ram) + $30(Audiolinux license) + $67(Akasa fanless case). This is roughly the cost of an i7-8700k processor.

 

Taking this further, one could try to boot in ram from a iscsi hosted Audiolinux image. I have had an iscsi server working from both a qnap Nas and from Archlinux in the past but it seems like a bit of overkill now. Nevertheless, I expect to try this as RDMA seems more elegant then the roonbridge and NAA solutions.

[lmitche]

Intel has just posted on the NUC site that the two generations of NUC recommended by Roy, NUC6CAxx and NUC7CJXX run in single channel memory mode only despite having two ram slots.

 

Hmm.....maybe this explains the SQ?

[seeteeyou]

1 hour ago, lmitche said:

Intel has just posted on the NUC site that the two generations of NUC recommended by Roy, NUC6CAxx and NUC7CJXX run in single channel memory mode only despite having two ram slots.

 

Hmm.....maybe this explains the SQ?

 

Asking for your help, please. I couldn't find that and maybe I wasn't looking hard enough

 

https://ark.intel.com/products/95062/Intel-NUC-Kit-NUC6CAYH

https://ark.intel.com/products/95078/Intel-NUC-Kit-NUC6CAYS

https://ark.intel.com/products/126135/Intel-NUC-Kit-NUC7CJYH

https://ark.intel.com/products/126136/Intel-NUC-7-Essential-a-Mini-PC-with-Windows-10---NUC7CJYSAL

https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/products/boards-kits/nuc/kits/nuc6cayh.html

https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/products/boards-kits/nuc/mini-pcs/nuc6cays.html

https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/products/boards-kits/nuc/kits/nuc7cjyh.html

https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/products/boards-kits/nuc/mini-pcs/nuc7cjysal.html

Quote

 

Max # of Memory Channels 2

 

Max # of DIMMs 2

 

 

Then I tried the PDF files instead

 

https://www.intel.com/content/dam/support/us/en/documents/boardsandkits/NUC6CAYB_TechProdSpec.pdf#page=19

https://www.intel.com/content/dam/support/us/en/documents/mini-pcs/nuc-kits/NUC7xJY_TechProdSpec.pdf#page=20

Quote

Two memory channels

 

Not sure about how to interpret these block diagrams

 

https://www.intel.com/content/dam/support/us/en/documents/boardsandkits/NUC6CAYB_TechProdSpec.pdf#page=17

https://www.intel.com/content/dam/support/us/en/documents/mini-pcs/nuc-kits/NUC7xJY_TechProdSpec.pdf#page=18

 

(EDIT) Oh my, looks like that really took a long time

 

https://communities.intel.com/message/562710#562710

Quote

I apologize for the long time it took me to get an official answer about this issue, it required a lot of digging and questioning, the result is that at this time dual channel memory is NOT supported. However, we are working on getting it supported, but we can’t commit it will be.

 

[rickca]

13 minutes ago, seeteeyou said:

 I couldn't find that and maybe I wasn't looking hard enough

Here's where I saw it

https://communities.intel.com/thread/127686

[lmitche]

2 hours ago, lmitche said:

CTU, a couple things. The qnap ts-251+ is indeed a terrific Nas for audio as it is fanless, holds two drives for raid operation and the qnap OS supports bridging the two nics right in the GUI. It also runs Windows and Audiolinux, and reacts well to power supply upgrades. If running an alternative OS removing the USB DOM reduces noise significantly.

 

With Audiolinux booting from ram drive it would be simple enough to boot from a USB hard disk into ram and then use the rest of the disk for music storage. In this way there is no need for emmc. This puts the NUC solution at $377 = $120(NUC barebones) + $160(16 gb ram) + $30(Audiolinux license) + $67(Akasa fanless case). This is roughly the cost of an i7-8700k processor.

 

Taking this further, one could try to boot in ram from a iscsi hosted Audiolinux image. I have had an iscsi server working from both a qnap Nas and from Archlinux in the past but it seems like a bit of overkill now. Nevertheless, I expect to try this as RDMA seems more elegant then the roonbridge and NAA solutions.

Actually I should have written HS251+, not TS251+.

[seeteeyou]

9 minutes ago, lmitche said:

Actually I should have written HS251+, not TS251+.

 

Well, they offered only up to 2GB of RAM for HS-251+ since that's soldered down. In other words, we'll have to take our time to trim either Windows or AudioLinux way down in order to boot everything into RAM.

 

I dunno, Roy wasn't that happy (relatively speaking) with either sMS-200ultra or ultraRendu since both of them had ARM processors. They should be much simpler when compared to an Intel NUC or Supermicro X10SBA-L because they've got nothing more than Ethernet and USB. Linux was running off micro SD cards (MLC by default, not sure about SLC ones) and it's also tricky to trim that way down. Both Dream OS and AudioLinux were built for x86 processors so no love for ARM ones.

 

In that case, maybe having on-board audio and video etc. might be no biggie?

 

BTW, I only mentioned eMMC drives for those of us who don't wanna invest the time to work on a diskless system. If that particular choice were comparable to an Intel SLC SSD, then spending $35 for 64GB ones (plus the costs of an adapter or two) could be good enough for some.

[lmitche]

6 hours ago, seeteeyou said:

we'll have to take our time to trim either Windows or AudioLinux 

Both Windows and Audiolinux run fine on the HS251+. No trimming necessary for regular boot. I have done both here.

 

For ramboot you are correct, no way it runs in 2gb without a ridiculous amount of work. Actually this seems like a fools errand to me.

 

But if you use an hs251+ as a NAS hosting iscsi boot, and roonserver, that could be an ideal combo with the NUC running Roon as an endpoint. Alternatively roonserver could run on the NUC with music served over samba. Tough to say which would sound best.

 

Lastly a second nook running archlinux and with a  two drive raid enclosure could be a cheaper and more flexible alternative.

 

So many choices.

 

 

[R1200CL]

 

[rickca]

18 hours ago, lmitche said:

So many choices.

I wonder how much of what you're hearing on the NUC is attributable to running AudioLinux in memory.  What would happen if you did that on your big rig?  I don't think the NUC itself has any special sauce.  Am I wrong?

[lmitche]

18 hours ago, rickca said:

I wonder how much of what you're hearing on the NUC is attributable to running AudioLinux in memory.  What would happen if you did that on your big rig?  I don't think the NUC itself has any special sauce.  Am I wrong?

Rick, you may be right. Actually it could be one of many things that have changed, Audiolinux, Roon, the nook hardware, single channel ram, ramboot and the case.

 

The latter were added one at a time, and the sq increased with each addition. However, on first play, unmodded NUC, Audiolinux and Roon, improvements such as top and bottom extension,  and improved presence were clearly there over the big rig. 

[sig8]

27 minutes ago, lmitche said:

Rick, you may be right. Actually it could be one of many things that have changed, Audiolinux, Roon, the nook hardware, single channel ram, ramboot and the case.

 

The latter were added one at a time, and the sq increased with each addition. However, on first play, unmodded NUC, Audiolinux and Roon, improvements such as top and bottom extension,  and improved presence were clearly there over the big rig. 

Larry: Would be interested in trying this arrangement, but would need some links and instructions. I use an i7-6700 single PC to up-sample in HQPlayer currently booting from an external HDD in Star Tech case. Thanks.

[seeteeyou]

Obviously I'm not Larry but here we go

 

NUC without eMMC
https://www.provantage.com/intel-boxnuc7cjyh1~7ITSP1N8.htm

https://www.amazon.com/Intel-NUC7-Celeron-Mini-BOXNUC7CJYH1/dp/B07B79CS8N

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1401554-REG/intel_boxnuc7cjyh1_intel_nuc_kit_nuc7cjyh.html

 

NUC with eMMC

https://www.provantage.com/intel-boxnuc7cjysal1~7ITSP1NQ.htm

https://www.amazon.com/Intel-BOXNUC7CJYSAL1-Essential-Mini-Windows/dp/B07BJT463H

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1428648-REG/intel_boxnuc7cjysal1_celeron_j4005_2.html

 

Case
http://www.cartft.com/catalog/il/2487

http://www.performance-pcs.com/akasa-newton-jc-fanless-case-for-intelr-june-canyon.html

https://www.amazon.com/Akasa-Fanless-Pentium-Processors-NUC42-M1B/dp/B07G9Y3YG3

 

RAM

https://www.provantage.com/crucial-technology-ct2k8g4sfd824a~7CIAL7J0.htm

https://www.amazon.com/Crucial-PC4-19200-Unbuffered-SODIMM-260-Pin/dp/B01BIWMWVS

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1233407-REG/crucial_ct2k8g4sfs824a_16gb_2_x_8gb.html

 

AudioLinux

http://www.tophifi.it/html/paypal/index.html

[sig8]

Thanks seeteeyou, but would need some instructions to load AudioLinux RAM boot, etc. Never used Linux before, so may be asking for too much.

[seeteeyou]

FYI - Maarten van Druten (Audio Dandy) shared a guide here

 

http://www.modelpromo.nl/AudioLinux-part2.htm

http://www.modelpromo.nl/audio-dandy/reviews/AudioLinux2/Installing_AudioLinux.pdf

 

Then it should be a plain and simple option

 

http://www.tophifi.it

Quote

From version 1.9.7 you can load the entire system to RAM as an option. For this you need at least 16GB RAM. There is the option to sync the entire system also in "ram mode"