A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming

[rickca]

Don't forget that Roy's results were with an SOtM switch sNH-10G.  I've got an SE and I'm looking forward to trying it with the Uptone Audio switch (for streaming).

 

I don't think anyone at this point is saying that NUC7CJYSAL on its own has the potential to outperform the SE.  People are experimenting to discover how far it can take you.

[lmitche]

8 hours ago, seeteeyou said:

 

Even 16GB of RAM turned out to be OK

This is interesting, I'm off to the ram store today. If true I'll have ramdisk boot running shortly.

[lmitche]

So what I am hearing so far is a mixed bag. Having run hqplayer dsd512 upsampling for years, it's my baseline. The Nuc7cjys can't do dsd512, so I'm listening to native pcm or dsd converted to pcm in roon. Some tracks sound great, better than dsd512. Others sound worse. It's like hqplayer dsd512 raises the average for everything, but prevents the best from reaching the top.

 

It will be curious to learn what ramboot and the fanless case bring.

[m3lraaHnevetS]

On 8/23/2018 at 5:01 PM, Johnseye said:

 

When used as an NAA, does the endpoint do the upsampling?  IIRC it does not but want to make sure.

 

Are you using Audiolinux?  I just installed it on my server.  The Optane drive is giving me some trouble at post.  I can't use it as memory with Linux either.  I may just pull it out for the moment.

 

Are you running HQPlayer desktop or embedded?  I just posted a question in the Software forum HQPlayer Linux thread and am wondering if there's a SQ benefit to running embedded.  Since my HQPlayer license is for Windows I'll need to buy another, and am wondering if I should license for both Linux desktop and embedded.

once you have settled on the hardware it's best to buy the embedded license and have audiolinux start in command line mode so there is no gui and then use an other computer or tablet to manage hqp embedded through the web-interface   

[lmitche]

BTW, @hifi25nl named Piero, the maker of Audiolinux, has been a great help in getting things going here. The bios in the Nuc7cjys is new and buggy, and he has provided many useful work arounds.

 

https://communities.intel.com/community/tech/nuc/content?filterID=contentstatus[published]~category[03-nuc7cjyh-nuc7pjyh-nuc7cjysal]

[Johnseye]

29 minutes ago, lmitche said:

BTW, @hifi25nl named Piero, the maker of Audiolinux, has been a great help in getting things going here. The bios in the Nuc7cjys is new and buggy, and he has provided many useful work arounds.

 

https://communities.intel.com/community/tech/nuc/content?filterID=contentstatus[published]~category[03-nuc7cjyh-nuc7pjyh-nuc7cjysal]

 

yes he's helped me work through some things. very responsive and very helpful.

[seeteeyou]

On 8/8/2018 at 7:29 PM, romaz said:

Other features include an embedded low power Celeron CPU with an SoC architecture and up to 8GB of RAM capacity. Unfortunately, there was no way to power the CPU independently as this board takes a single 12-19V DC feed, however, given the very small 4" x 4" size of this UCFF (Ultra Compact Form Factor) board, I figured it should have even lower impedance than a larger mini-ITX board and was worth $100 to test it.

 

That part really got me thinking. If smaller were indeed better due to the impedance is lower, what if we're going for something as small as an Intel Compute Stick or Asus VivoStick?

 

https://www.amazon.com/Intel-Compute-Stick-BOXSTK1A32SC-BLKSTK1A32SC/dp/B01AZC4I64

https://www.amazon.com/ASUS-VivoStick-TS10-B017D-Intel-Z8350/dp/B01EZGYV9A

 

Of course Ethernet could only be added via USB while we're getting merely 2GB of RAM. However, something else is coming with built-in Ethernet in addition to 6GB of RAM and 32GB eMMC

 

https://solutionsdirectory.intel.com/solutions-directory/Fanless_Mini_Computer_Mini_PC_Stick_6GB_32GB_MeLE_PCHD26_GML3_Quad_Core_Intel

http://melestar.manufacturer.globalsources.com/si/6008851132319/pdtl/Mini-PC/1162076645/Fanless-Intel-Mini-PC.htm

 

 

Hopefully some retailers could carry that soon because the minimum order seemed to be 300 pieces as shown above

 

https://liliputing.com/2018/04/mele-pc-stick-with-gemini-lake-processor-coming-this-summer.html

https://www.cnx-software.com/2018/04/12/mele-pcg02-gml-gemini-lake-fanless-tv-stick-coming-in-june-for-180-and-up/

[hurka]

Ocxo inside ? 12v better? Phase noise? Why expensive? Power matter? We have good power.....

[hurka]

Somebody trialed normal xo like crystek powered with 4xlt3045-4xlt3045-4xlt3045-following Paul design???

[hurka]

Superdad measured better spec bcose powered better power than factory????

[hurka]

Why low phase noise ocxo 12v? Reg inside????

[hurka]

Mutec ref just good powered xo?????

[austinpop]

@hurka if you're wondering out loud, you realize we can hear you?  

 

Seriously - 5 one-line posts in sequence? And what is the context? Just FYI - CA allows you to edit your posts for some amount of time (30 minutes? 1 hour?).

[hurka]

13 minutes ago, austinpop said:

@hurka if you're wondering out loud, you realize we can hear you?  

 

Seriously - 5 one-line posts in sequence? And what is the context? Just FYI - CA allows you to edit your posts for some amount of time (30 minutes? 1 hour?).

This is not answering my question 

[hurka]

I have posted real questions 

[Cornan]

2 minutes ago, hurka said:

This is not answering my question 

 

Rajiv just want you to be more specific. I do agree with him. You have a lot of valuable knowledge. Use it by putting it down into a clearly understandable information and not into spreaded short posts that are difficult to put together and comprehand.

[lmitche]

Ok, so ramboot with 16gb is confirmed to run on Audiolinux running on a Nuc7cjys. Now I just need to learn how to redirect Roon to use the emmc version of the database.

 

SQ took another jump up, sounding kinda almost Optane-ish. At first glance, some tracks that suffered earlier, sound great now. Time to learn about Roon upsampling capacity.

[austinpop]

On 8/25/2018 at 3:39 PM, lmitche said:

Time to learn about Roon upsampling capacity.

 

I am really glad to see you exploring this space. I would think even a low-powered NUC should be able to do the following:

1. PCM to PCM upsampling to Max PCM (power of 2) - i.e. no conversion between sample rate families
2. DSD to DSD upsampling

I'm curious to see how what you think with Roon doing this type of compute-friendly upsampling versus the compute-intensive "everything to DSD512" upsampling with HQPlayer.

[lmitche]

5 hours ago, austinpop said:

 

I am really glad to see you exploring this space. I would think even a low-powered NUC should be able to do the following:

1. PCM to PCM upsampling to Max PCM (power of 2) - i.e. no conversion between sample rate families
2. DSD to DSD upsampling

I'm curious to see how what you think with Roon doing this type of compute-friendly upsampling versus the compute-intensive "everything to DSD512" upsampling with HQPlayer.

The process here is difficult with so many parameters. Having only used this dac in dsd512 it's PCM behavior is the first bit of the learning curve.

 

Not having a preamp, I typically use Hqplayer volume control. My dac has a physical volume control but it's SQ behavior is unknown to my ears. Roon has a digital control but that will only work if dsd is converted to pcm which Roon does at 352 khz.

 

It's gonna take a while to reach any conclusions.

 

Thanks for your support.

[kelvinwsy]

I have been using a MINIX NEO Z83 fanless mini pc as a NAA for more than a year.

It has 4 gb DDR3 RAM and a 32 gb emmc Samsung device. I have also run it as a stand-alone pc with JRiver MC22 and HQPlayer - In Hqplayer it can only do DSD64 before it stutters. PCM is quite solid performance up to 352 and 384 kHz.

I recently installed a SOTM SMS200 Ultra Neo as a 2nd NAA to compare.

While in a separate thread here on CA, i am doing a SQ comparison so i will just be brief here.

My Minix Neo has Win10 pre-installed. Tried everything to install Win 10 Pro or Win Server 2016 on the emmc, tried to install a bootable 64gb microsd card in the card reader slot. Tried UEFI boot etc. No luck. The emmc has the bootable OS and that is it. Confirmed by Support from MINIX

Your gentlemen may have better luck installing other OS's with newer generations of NUC from Intel than this 2016 Quad Core Cherry from Minix Neo.

 

As for SQ, even with my new SOTM SMS200 Ultra Neo I can say after 2 weeks on testing and comparison, the Minix Neo NUC is not a slacker. If I am to choose one factor why the SMS 200 Ultra Neo sounds better AS a NAA on HQPlayer is simply it has a MUCH better Clock and better power components. I fed the Minix 12v DC from a LPS, but the components on board are run of the mill standard fare.

 

SQ wise with Win 10 shutting down to 38-40 processes using Process Lasso / Fidelizer 8.2 Pro, it put up a brave fight against the SMS 200 Ultra. The HQ PC is running Win Server 2016 Core Mode Btw.

The Sound stage is wide, deep, and quiet. The sound images are not as precise and solid focused as in the SMS 200 Ultra Neo. The Neo is also quieter, deeper sound stage, and sweeter. All comparisons done with LPS1 feeding a 6 v 1amp LT3045 feeding the ISOREGEN via Uptone Audio's USBPCB to a iFi iDSD Micro BL and HD800/HE560/Final Sonorous VI.

 

And I voice my frustations with the SMS Ultra Neo - doing DSD512 is possible BUT only with the gentler filters up to DSD7/sinc-ext - It STUTTERS with the ADSM7+DSD512/sinc xtr-2 ... Pity!!

The Minix NEO runs through all the filters except the sinc xtr and the Closed 16M. Even the Mining filters can run == just an occasional flutter... Imagine that a 200 USD run of the mill minipc doing upsampling SO damn good!

 

So happy testing to everyone. I am now inspired to run my MINIX NEO minipc as a standlone Audio PC doing native file playback and see how it sounds!! 

 

[Johnseye]

On 8/25/2018 at 7:12 AM, m3lraaHnevetS said:

once you have settled on the hardware it's best to buy the embedded license and have audiolinux start in command line mode so there is no gui and then use an other computer or tablet to manage hqp embedded through the web-interface   

 

Unless you use Roon, which is what I do.  I'd be interested in knowing whether embedded has any benefit over desktop for SQ.

[Johnseye]

15 hours ago, austinpop said:

 

I am really glad to see you exploring this space. I would think even a low-powered NUC should be able to do the following:

1. PCM to PCM upsampling to Max PCM (power of 2) - i.e. no conversion between sample rate families
2. DSD to DSD upsampling

I'm curious to see how what you think with Roon doing this type of compute-friendly upsampling versus the compute-intensive "everything to DSD512" upsampling with HQPlayer.

 

Even DSD to DSD takes a lot of muscle.  I must run hyper threading but I am able to turn off turbo mode.  That's with an i7 7700k, but I run the server with 19v.

[m3lraaHnevetS]

1 hour ago, Johnseye said:

 

Unless you use Roon, which is what I do.  I'd be interested in knowing whether embedded has any benefit over desktop for SQ.

not sure...I went from win10 running HQP desktop to Audiolinux running embedded, and that made a big difference but most of this improvement was probably due to Linux...

running HQP desktop on Audiolinux does not degrade the sound noticeably at normal listening level in my current system. but logic tells me that running gui-less helps to reduce load and that is a good thing. So even while I do not hear a big difference today I will still go for embedded.

[seeteeyou]

Great news for those of us who might wanna give Intel NUC a try? Most likely SOtM tX-USBhubIN could be added even though we don't even have any M.2 / PCIe slots for installing tX-USBexp

 

https://www.sotm-audio.com/sotmwp/english/portfolio-item/tx-usbhub/

Quote

Also tX-USBhub has more benefits than the tX-USBexp since the connection to mainboard is made by USB connector only.

 

However, @romaz actually talked to Lee and the latest version of tX-USBexp turned out to be superior

 

https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/30376-a-novel-way-to-massively-improve-the-sq-of-computer-audio-streaming/?page=153&tab=comments#comment-724987

 

I just checked the specs and found the page where those Single-Port Internal USB 2.0 Headers (i.e. upper-right corner of the motherboard as shown below, right above the yellow USB port) were mentioned

 

https://www.intel.com/content/dam/support/us/en/documents/mini-pcs/nuc-kits/NUC7xJY_TechProdSpec.pdf#page=44

 

 

And then I also found this on Intel's site

 

https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/support/articles/000006933/mini-pcs.html

 

However, I looked at some pictures of tX-USBhubIN and no connectors for Intel NUC's 1.25mm pitch was included

 

 

 

In that case, maybe we could simply pay them to make a connector (or more like two connectors for one cable since those headers are separated?) for an Intel NUC.

[Jud]

22 hours ago, austinpop said:

I am really glad to see you exploring this space. I would think even a low-powered NUC should be able to do the following:

1. PCM to PCM upsampling to Max PCM (power of 2) - i.e. no conversion between sample rate families
2.  DSD to DSD upsampling

 

DSD to DSD goes through PCM in between.