A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming

[Cortes]

On 8/20/2018 at 6:33 PM, Cornan said:

I thought I wait for a couple of days before re-evaluating the LiFeP04 powered 2A LT3045 board powering the GI Spdif output of my BluWave board. The last frontier before my Brooklyn DAC. Meanwhile I have upgraded the LPSU powering ISO Regen with a 1A 6v LT3045 instead of a 0.5A 7v LT3045 post balanced AC-AC ps>MS-HPULN which resulted in a SQ jump just as predicted.

Anyway, after giving it some time I decided to re-evaluate the LT3045 LiFeP04 combo using the on/off switch on the board to see if it made the same SQ difference as I originally thought. Well, it did and actually exceeded my expectations as well. Turning it off killed the music completely. With it the air, fibers, 3D/4D, dynamics is back in full bloom. Better than Gophert>MS-HPULN and better than Gophert>MS-HPULN>LPS-1.2 as well. Toe-tapping heaven! ?

 

@Carnon,

 

could you post some picture of the LT3045 LiFeP04 combo?. It looks the simplest configuration of all you have tried, and can be very valuable for all here. 

[seeteeyou]

Apparently there are some DIY kits that would accept 6 pieces of 18650 batteries, though they're designed for those 3.7V Li-ion batteries in the first place instead of 3.2V LiFePO4 ones

 

https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=529049384463

https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=529567260681

https://www.ebay.com/itm/3-6V-5V-6V-9V-12V-Power-Bank-Box-USB-6x18650-Battery-Charger-Adapter-USA-Seller/162900193174

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/12V-19V-21V-out-put-mobile-note-book-power-bank-box-18650-battery-case-box-section/32295627283.html

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1pc-19v-mobile-power-bank-box-18650-battery-case-box-section-6-universal-mobile-phone-charging/1568863317.html

Quote

• DC Output: DC5.5*2.1-2.5MM 3.6V/2.5A;5V/2.1A;6V/1.8A;9V/1.1A;12V/0.6A (with current limiting and temperature protection)
• USB Port Output: 5V/2.1A(max)
• Total Output Power: 75W(max) , DC Port: 65W(max)

 

 

 

More importantly, those voltage regulators inside the box should pretty much suck anyways. At least they're claiming 65W output (max) so that's high enough for that particular 36W requirement of LPS-1.2 from UpTone Audio.

 

A relatively inexpensive way to power those LT3045-based PSUs from Alexey and Michael etc. while going completely off the grid. Ideally someone could build something similar with whole bunch of LT3045 inside the power bank itself.

 

Now the question is how much current would an Intel NUC actually draw @ 12V when it's "only" acting as an endpoint. LPS-1.2 should be out since the TDP of Celeron J4005 alone is already 10W. If the current were 5A or less, then it's a good idea to go for LSIB-HPULN

 

https://www.mpaudio.net/product-page/lsib-hpuln-ps

 

Let's say we could actually get away with 1.5A @ 15V or 22.5W, DXP-1A5DSC should be an ideal choice for $145

 

http://www.ldovr.com/product-p/dxp-1a5dsc.htm

 

Looking forward to a comparison between DXP-1A5DSC and SR4 (or even SR7) in the future.

[yellowblue]

@Cornan

Which  LiFeP04 batteries are you using? It´s not easy to get them in the northern part of Europe.

[Cornan]

9 minutes ago, yellowblue said:

@Cornan

Which  LiFeP04 batteries are you using? It´s not easy to get them in the northern part of Europe.

 

Here is a link to the ones I ordered.

 

https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F253459672096

 

?

[Cornan]

1 hour ago, Cortes said:

 

@Carnon,

 

could you post some picture of the LT3045 LiFeP04 combo?. It looks the simplest configuration of all you have tried, and can be very valuable for all here. 

 

Here you are!

 

 

It is very simple, but effective I must add! ?

[yellowblue]

Have just ordered  the LT3045 LiFeP04 combo to power my Aqvox Switch. Will see if it´s better than my LPS-1

[Johnseye]

12 hours ago, lmitche said:

John,  I honestly don't know how best to use it. Obviously it's not going to upsample to dsd512 with hqplayer.  Yes, it could make a great naa machine. 

 

So far we have tested it running roonserver for a old 44.1 to 48 khz 24 bit max r2r spdif dac. High res and dsd files are downsampled by roon, others played native. SQ was fantastic for twenty minutes until it stopped working. I'm not sure what happened but the latest bios is crazy flaky, and something is just not right.

 

Anyway this is very promising, so likely worth the struggle.

 

Stay tuned, Larry

 

When used as an NAA, does the endpoint do the upsampling?  IIRC it does not but want to make sure.

 

Are you using Audiolinux?  I just installed it on my server.  The Optane drive is giving me some trouble at post.  I can't use it as memory with Linux either.  I may just pull it out for the moment.

 

Are you running HQPlayer desktop or embedded?  I just posted a question in the Software forum HQPlayer Linux thread and am wondering if there's a SQ benefit to running embedded.  Since my HQPlayer license is for Windows I'll need to buy another, and am wondering if I should license for both Linux desktop and embedded.

[Cortes]

4 hours ago, Cornan said:

 

Here you are!

 

 

It is very simple, but effective I must add! ?

 

Very lovely. 

 

This is something like this?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1pc-LT3045-Four-parallel-regulated-power-supply-18650-Battery-5V-500MA-/312088447246

 

Have you tried  Battery bank >MS-HPULN ?. I ask because the HPULNS look of hitgher quality,  and the top model has 10 LT3045 regulators. 

[seeteeyou]

Oh my, they actually jacked up the price to $72 while it's only $49 plus shipping here

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/LT3045-four-parallel-regulated-power-supply-5V-2A-Upgrade-LT3042/273135946356

 

Originally it's closer to $29 (i.e. 200 RMB) in China

 

https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=565126246341

 

They also made an inferior version (1A output) with a different regulator, that ain't any good when compared to LT3045

 

https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=546522549178

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1-2-to-6-5V-adjustable-1A-Battery-powered-adjustable-power-supply-board/273384388438

[Cornan]

2 hours ago, Cortes said:

 

Very lovely. 

 

This is something like this?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1pc-LT3045-Four-parallel-regulated-power-supply-18650-Battery-5V-500MA-/312088447246

 

Have you tried  Battery bank >MS-HPULN ?. I ask because the HPULNS look of hitgher quality,  and the top model has 10 LT3045 regulators. 

 

This is the one I ordered https://www.ebay.com/itm/LT3045-four-parallel-regulated-power-supply-5V-2A-Upgrade-LT3042/273135946356, ie. the same one that @seeteeyou have posted about above.

 

I do have a spare MS-HPULN but no LiFePO4 battery pack (but a lot of Li-ion battery packs) to go with it which I think is quite important for best result. My three LS-HPULNs (10 x LT3045) are occupied with other duties on spots that are not suitable for battery operation.

 

I actually did an unsuccessful trial with Li-ion battery pack>LT3045 1A>LS-HPULN where my Aries Mini did’nt want to power up properly. I have’nt revisited it again to rule out why though. I’m quite sure that I probably measured the output voltage wrong. I might give the MS-HPULN a go with a 8,4V Li-ion battery pack powering Aqvox switch-8, but since it currently powered with MS-HPULN>LPS-1.2 I’ll guess it is a bit of a stiff competition unless I’ll use a LiFePO4 battery pack which I do not own at the moment.

[lmitche]

9 hours ago, Johnseye said:

 

When used as an NAA, does the endpoint do the upsampling?  IIRC it does not but want to make sure.

 

Are you using Audiolinux?  I just installed it on my server.  The Optane drive is giving me some trouble at post.  I can't use it as memory with Linux either.  I may just pull it out for the moment.

 

Are you running HQPlayer desktop or embedded?  I just posted a question in the Software forum HQPlayer Linux thread and am wondering if there's a SQ benefit to running embedded.  Since my HQPlayer license is for Windows I'll need to buy another, and am wondering if I should license for both Linux desktop and embedded.

Hi John,

 

No, with hqplayer upsampling on a server the NAA is just taking the bitstream from the network and pushing it out the USB port. It is designed to be simple. I have never been able to make it work reliably. Maybe I am too simple.

 

Anyway, today I yanked my PC and it's big heavy box, and replaced it with the handheld 4gb NUC. I did nothing special, just connected the Ethernet cable, USPCB to Iso regen and dac, and the USB cable to my hard disk. Roonserver is running on Audiolinux, without hqplayer, and booting from emmc. Power is from the Intel supplied smps. In Roon the ifi BL microidsd dac was configured to convert dsd to pcm, enabling Roon volume control, and for pcm to run at native resolutions.

 

The sq shows lots of potential so tomorrow I'll continue with a series of optimizations on the power and network legs.

 

We will see what happens.  The big PC may have found it's match. It's like David and Goliath. Roy knows what he is doing.  Stay tuned.

 

 

[flkin]

13 hours ago, Johnseye said:

 

When used as an NAA, does the endpoint do the upsampling?  IIRC it does not but want to make sure.

 

Are you using Audiolinux?  I just installed it on my server.  The Optane drive is giving me some trouble at post.  I can't use it as memory with Linux either.  I may just pull it out for the moment.

 

Are you running HQPlayer desktop or embedded?  I just posted a question in the Software forum HQPlayer Linux thread and am wondering if there's a SQ benefit to running embedded.  Since my HQPlayer license is for Windows I'll need to buy another, and am wondering if I should license for both Linux desktop and embedded.

 

You can use HQP on both the server and renderer in Linux to do NAA. The Linux commands from Mac terminal are pretty simple:

 

ssh audiolinux@ip address of the NAA eg 10.0.0.12

password: xxxx for your copy

Start NAA with:

systemctl --user start networkaudio

Stop NAA with:

systemctl --user stop networkaudio

 

Upsampling is done on the server side.

 

Embedded HQP licence is attached to the device - you cannot move the licence to another device later. Whereas for the desktop version, it's attached to the user so you can move it. So there is a definite downside to the Embedded version.

[flkin]

On 8/19/2018 at 7:00 AM, lpost said:

I've had it for a 5 weeks.  I guess I was better at negotiating.

 

You wish!  ?

 

Turns out your configuration of the Pink Faun server 2.16 is quite different from my 2.16x version. I asked Jord to push the streamer to the limit and so in addition to adding their PCX-1 cables internally, 10mm rhodium fuses and FI-09 socket, mine also includes four of the newer extra low phase noise clocks. ?

[seeteeyou]

Maybe it could be fun to run multiple units at the same time?

 

NUC NAS
https://www.medo64.com/2015/09/nuc-nas/

 

Rockstor on the Intel NUC
http://rockstor.com/blog/tutorials/rockstor-on-the-intel-nuc/

 

Intel NUC intel nuc d54250wykh working
https://xpenology.com/forum/topic/9422-intel-nuc-intel-nuc-d54250wykh-working/

https://xpenology.com/forum/topic/8373-user-reported-compatibility-thread-for-dsm-61/?tab=comments#comment-91144

 

6th gen Intel NUC running ESXi as router (with USB 3.0->Gigabit NIC)?

https://www.reddit.com/r/homelab/comments/4xy3zc/6th_gen_intel_nuc_running_esxi_as_router_with_usb/

 

Intel NUC router with nftables

https://medium.com/@prasmussen/intel-nuc-router-with-nftables-9a9a1e44db9c

 

Scripts to configure an Intel NUC to act as a router

https://github.com/nokia/intel-nuc-router

 

A USB3/Gigabit Ethernet adapter (ASIX AX88179 chipset recommended)

https://www.amazon.com/Plugable-Gigabit-Ethernet-Network-Adapter/dp/B00AQM8586

 

StarTech.com USB 3.0 to Dual Port Gigabit Ethernet Adapter NIC with USB Port (USB32000SPT)
https://www.amazon.com/StarTech-com-Gigabit-Ethernet-Adapter-USB32000SPT/dp/B00D8XTOD0

https://www.startech.com/Networking-IO/usb-network-adapters/USB-3-to-Dual-Port-Gigabit-Ethernet-Adapter-NIC-with-USB-Port~USB32000SPT

Quote

ASIX - AX88179

 

M.2 dual Ethernet Module Kit

https://shop.udoo.org/usa/m-2-dual-ethernet-module-kit.html

 

Adding a second NIC to a 5th Gen Intel NUC (Or other PCIe Cards)
https://www.virten.net/2015/09/adding-a-second-nic-to-a-5th-gen-intel-nuc-or-other-pcie-cards/

 

 

 

[RickyV]

 

[Forehaven]

 

16 hours ago, lmitche said:

Hi John,

 

No, with hqplayer upsampling on a server the NAA is just taking the bitstream from the network and pushing it out the USB port. It is designed to be simple. I have never been able to make it work reliably. Maybe I am too simple.

 

Anyway, today I yanked my PC and it's big heavy box, and replaced it with the handheld 4gb NUC. I did nothing special, just connected the Ethernet cable, USPCB to Iso regen and dac, and the USB cable to my hard disk. Roonserver is running on Audiolinux, without hqplayer, and booting from emmc. Power is from the Intel supplied smps. In Roon the ifi BL microidsd dac was configured to convert dsd to pcm, enabling Roon volume control, and for pcm to run at native resolutions.

 

The sq shows lots of potential so tomorrow I'll continue with a series of optimizations on the power and network legs.

 

We will see what happens.  The big PC may have found it's match. It's like David and Goliath. Roy knows what he is doing.  Stay tuned.

 

 

Oh good god Larry, Please don't say that!!!  Not after all the work we've done!! ;-))

 

[seeteeyou]

https://nucblog.net/2018/04/gemini-lake-nuc-review-nuc7cjyh-linux-htpc-conclusions/

Quote

• Idle at Windows 10 desktop: 7.2 W
• Playing 4k HEVC video: 11.8 W
• Prime95 stress test: 15.6 W
• Prime95 stress test and Cinebench OpenGL test simultaneously: 24.1 W

 

So far I could only find one clock @ 25MHz that's next to the Realtek Gigabit Ethernet chip, do you guys see anything else?

 

 

[lmitche]

Funny, if you look at the left picture of the NUC guts, you can little silver blocks over the usb ports, audio ports, etc. They feel like sponges glued in place, and must be there to suck up EMI/RFI. Maybe Barrows is on to something after all.

 

 

[lmitche]

2 hours ago, Forehaven said:

 

Oh good god Larry, Please don't say that!!!  Not after all the work we've done!! ;-))

 

LOL Chris,

 

Chill out! There is a lot to learn about the NUC yet.

 

Stay tuned,

 

Larry

[mansr]

29 minutes ago, lmitche said:

Funny, if you look at the left picture of the NUC guts, you can little silver blocks over the usb ports, audio ports, etc. They feel like sponges glued in place, and must be there to suck up EMI/RFI. Maybe Barrows is on to something after all.

Those are metal mesh over foam used to seal the gaps between the connector housings and the chassis. Don't ask me why some of the ports don't have them.

[auricgoldfinger]

@seeteeyou  No DX amps in the near future

 

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-electronics-dave.766517/page-806#post-14442312

[seeteeyou]

https://ark.intel.com/products/126136/Intel-NUC-7-Essential-a-Mini-PC-with-Windows-10---NUC7CJYSAL

 

Even 16GB of RAM turned out to be OK

 

https://youtu.be/402RT0f13pk#t=341

 

 

 

However, Intel just announced Coffee Lake (20W / 28W TDP) NUC recently featuring Thunderbolt 3

 

https://newsroom.intel.com/news/intel-introduces-new-nuc-kits-nuc-mini-pcs-intel-nuc-family/

https://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/intel-bean-canyon-nuc-arrive-coffee-lake-u/

 

We could actually add an expansion chassis via Thunderbolt 3 and then install our own PCIe card(s) with external power

 

https://www.akitio.com/expansion/node-duo

https://www.sonnetstore.com/collections/thunderbolt-expansion-systems

 

Cheapest i3 models are starting at $280

 

https://www.provantage.com/intel-boxnuc8i3bek1~7ITSP1QQ.htm

https://www.provantage.com/intel-boxnuc8i3beh1~7ITSP1QP.htm

 

FYI - even Thunderbolt seemed to be supported under Windows PE

 

https://www.dell.com/support/article/us/en/04/how13364/winpe-10-driver-pack

Quote

Intel Thunderbolt Controller Driver

 

Not sure if Gemini Lake or Coffee Lake were having better SQ, though.

[rickca]

6 hours ago, seeteeyou said:

However, Intel just announced Coffee Lake (20W / 28W TDP) NUC recently featuring Thunderbolt 3

I've been looking at them.  They don't have the eMMC of the NUC7 model that @lmitche is playing with.  The question is whether eMMC is a big advantage over an M.2 PCIe x4 slot.

 

[seeteeyou]

10 minutes ago, rickca said:

I've been looking at them.  They don't have the eMMC of the NUC7 model that @lmitche is playing with.  The question is whether eMMC is a big advantage over an M.2 PCIe x4 slot.

 

It depends on how far we'd like to go in terms of following in @romaz's footsteps. Running the OS entirely from RAM should be the first priority due to the latency. (i.e. nanoseconds for RAM versus microseconds for Optane etc.)

 

The second one is optimizing the OS by the removal of unnecessary components.

 

Finally there's noise coming from storage devices. HDDs and SSDs are noisiest, while eMMC should be not as bad. And then there's even an option to "surpass" the advantage of eMMC by eliminating that altogether. Either remove / turn off the USB drive after the OS is loaded, or go for network boot like iSCSI / PXE.

 

The latest NUC models seemed to have their Wi-Fi cards soldered down and even disconnecting the antenna cables + disabling them in BIOS might not be good enough. And then some of us might still wanna add our own PCIe cards via Thunderbolt 3 or maybe M.2 to PCIe adapters.

 

When all confounding factors are eliminated, it's still hard to tell which NUC model is giving us the best SQ unless we're actually comparing all of them. In that case, maybe adding our own PCIe cards (e.g. USB / Ethernet) could give us an edge?

 

http://jplay.eu/forum/index.php?/topic/2473-intel-nuc-alikes-which-accept-jcat-femto-ethernet-card/

[seeteeyou]

On 6/19/2018 at 1:14 AM, austinpop said:

It turns out the Innuos Zenith SE is an "open" system, in that you can access the BIOS, or even load a different OS if you want.

 

Since @romaz already sold his ZENith SE, let's see if we're able to find another "adventurous" owner of SE. What if a completely diskless SE (running AudioLinux entirely from RAM while both SSD and optical drive are disconnected) were actually able to beat a "properly" powered Intel NUC 7 Essential NUC7CJYSAL Mini PC? Of course both of them should act as endpoints for the sake of comparisons, and preferably connected to a reclocked switch.

 

If SE were still not coming out on top, then at least we could tell that "magic sauce" should be baked right into the design of an Intel NUC and for whatever reasons it's even more "magical" when compared to what X10SBA-L could offer.