A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming

[look&listen]

53 minutes ago, Evo-No-Revo said:

"Audiophiles are the homeopathic healers of the electrical engineering world..."

Great sig!

[nbpf]

@BigGuy, @austinpop, @afrancois, thanks for your replies, I very much appreciate your feedback! Best, nbpf 

[austinpop]

2 hours ago, ted_b said:

Sorry to hijack this, but could you provide more detail?  I have a newly purchased home in Denver we will be moving to soon, and the dedicated basement (high ceilings, etc) music room plan is somewhat near the mains box, so running a dedicated line(s) will not be problematic.  However, I was under the misguided impression that two lines (one for amps, one for other) might introduce ground loops, etc.  I needed, send me to a different link so as not to hijack, worst case.  Thx

 

Hi Ted,

 

The aforequoted link from MSB is as good a writeup as I've seen: http://www.msbtechnology.com/faq/how-to-wire-your-house-for-good-power/

 

I'm not expert enough on the mechanics of panels and home runs to say what pitfalls can cause ground loops. My guess is as long as your panel is well grounded, you use a decent gauge, and pay attention to phase, as per the writeup, you should stay out of trouble. As audiophiles of course, some people like to dive into ratholes.  For example:

• the use of silver paste - some swear by it, some pooh pooh it
• 10 gauge versus thicker, like 6 gauge
• brand and type of circuit breaker
• twisting the conductors
• grounding rod

 

I described my experience in a post on this thread a couple months ago. The one thing I cannot really comment on is the number of dedicated circuits. Some people go nuts with this - a circuit for digital sources, one of analog sources, one per amp, one per sub. Honestly, I suspect it's all good, as long as you pay attention to the phase, and it's just a matter of deciding where to draw the line.

[FredM]

7 hours ago, KingRex said:

Be on the lookout for their upcoming server.  It is targeted to stomp on the Sound Gallery Music server and I see no reason why it won't do as such, for a lot less Money.  Adrian brought a plain old laptop with just their software for the new server on it.  It was just as quiet, if not more so than my full blown server.  I think the dynamics were not their, but that is to be expected.  Imagine how it will perform with 24 individual power supply via 7N copper wire.  Whoops, am I letting a cat out of the bag.   It should trounce all other out there.  Probably no need for ref clocks or accessories.  Just connect it to your DAC.  Exciting product.  

 

 D*mn it, just when I wanted to pull the trigger on an other server product..

Thanks for sharing, curious about the features and its performance !!

 

[ElviaCaprice]

14 minutes ago, FredM said:

 

 D*mn it, just when I wanted to pull the trigger on an other server product..

Thanks for sharing, curious about the features and its performance !!

 

Don't worry, there is going to be an endless release of new best servers (big money makers).  Question is, are they cost effective?  I still say build your own with a sCLK-EX modded mobo, tXUSBpcie card and quality power supply.  At least with an external quality power supply you can move it to a future upgraded (better) mobo when the itch appears.

I'm currently more than happy with my sCLK-EX server. 

[Ben2300]

9 hours ago, seeteeyou said:

Their USB card, Ethernet card, and router etc. should share the same $55 OCXO clock

So now you got me wonder how much the clock cost inside the sotm sclk-ex. Should be easy to find out.

[lmitche]

Today two El Cheapos powering my two lps1s were replaced with a dual 9 volt sigma 11 100va power supply.  I also hacked a Netgear fs105 with a ldovr.com 3.3 volt lt3045 board mounted internally with two more lt 3045s, 5 and 6 volts, feeding it through the existing barrell connector.

 

Later in the week a 12 volt AC transformer arives and I'll replace the last El cheapo with a 7 volt sigma 11.

 

SQ has hit a new level once again. My wife even noticed, and mentioned it for the first time.

 

This all came about after one of my Lps-1 energizing El Cheapos literally flamed out last week. Happily the fuse blew.  The stink still lingers.

[lmitche]

19 hours ago, look&listen said:

But torriods and poor diode bridge. Even better,

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Finished-100VA-Ultra-Low-Noise-Linear-Power-Supply-Ouptut-9v-12v-19v-24v-R1716/141770497380?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649

 

My one has copper foil over r-type. Used same but little less VA for Mini power for over year. But no LPS-1.2 to compare.

 

What would be a better diode bridge? I had a similar r-type fail here last week, so I'm not going there.

[Bruce Orr]

1 hour ago, auricgoldfinger said:

 

How long is your run?

Ah, that is a good question - at least from a cost perspective.  From my main electrical box thru the attic and down to the audio devices is 70-80 feet!  The cost of AWG #6/3 is about $20/foot, so I am going to use that for one of the dedicated lines that will power all audio, except my sub-woofer. The other will use standard #10g solid core, which is what Jim said was the second-best conductor (and much less expensive) to drive the woofer.  The lines will run at least 6 inches apart from start to finish using a custom Hessell 2-plug outlet from Jim. I'm not exactly sure what secret sauce he adds to the outlet.

[seeteeyou]

42 minutes ago, Ben2300 said:

So now you got me wonder how much the clock cost inside the sotm sclk-ex. Should be easy to find out.

 

We could take a look at this picture below but it ain't all that obvious, we wouldn't be able to see any model numbers and such. (Maybe it's something proprietary?)

 

https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/30376-a-novel-way-to-massively-improve-the-sq-of-computer-audio-streaming/?page=140&tab=comments#comment-718504

 

The value of sCLK-EX really is more about its flexibility since we could specify a corresponding frequency for each tap. OTOH, we could only get a fixed frequency from those TCXO / OCXO clocks etc.

[auricgoldfinger]

41 minutes ago, Bruce Orr said:

Ah, that is a good question - at least from a cost perspective.  From my main electrical box thru the attic and down to the audio devices is 70-80 feet!  The cost of AWG #6/3 is about $20/foot, so I am going to use that for one of the dedicated lines that will power all audio, except my sub-woofer. The other will use standard #10g solid core, which is what Jim said was the second-best conductor (and much less expensive) to drive the woofer.  The lines will run at least 6 inches apart from start to finish using a custom Hessell 2-plug outlet from Jim. I'm not exactly sure what secret sauce he adds to the outlet.

 

Sounds like his new source is charging him more.  When I inquired several months ago, it was $10/foot.

[Solstice380]

8 hours ago, nbpf said:

I guess the question is by how much? Can you elaborate a little bit on your experience with AC regenerators? What was your initial setup? Which regenerators have you tried or added to your initial setup? Thanks, nbpf

 

Wow, I was traveling today and there were 15 or so more posts since then!

 

I’ve found the PS regenerators helpful in my system / location.   We tend to have poor quality power - up to 4% THD and definite power factor issues.   So time of day and phase of the moon would change the SQ. 

 

The dedicated circuit wasn’t feasible at the time but I did make that move eventually.   Ted, you can have many runs but see which type panel you have and keep them on the same phase.  And put the fridge and microwave etc on the other!

 

i started with a Chang Lightspeed and then a Transparent Ref

conditioner.   I then tried a PS Power Plant Premier and ended up with 3 of them.  @austinpop mentioned not putting your amp on an UNDERSIZED regenerator.  I added the undersized caveat. Despite the specs for current delivery etc that are great with these things, I think they over rate them.  I now have a P10 for the front end a P10 for the amp only.  The P5 isnt even big enough for a front end with very many components.  I wouldn’t put

more than a few hundred watts load on it for it to perform its best.  The PPP and P10 have the same 1500 watt rating but the P10 is fine for my amp where the PPP wasn’t.  There is a reason why PS has introduced the P20!  I’ve also heard a solid demo on the big Stromtank unit out of

Germany.   Similar idea but wicked expensive and probably better than the PS.  Also, PS is now using DSD to generate the signal and not PCM.  ?  When it comes to

power, more is always better.  Oversized PSUs in components are usually better for SQ.  Heat be damned. 

 

I snagged a Topaz off eBay to try.  750VA 0.0005 cap -31 model and put my whole front end on it in place of the P10.  Hundreds vs thousands of $ is worth a try.  It collapsed the soundstage noticeably.  No question.  The newer PS units have some measurement and graphical capabilities so I plugged it into the Belkin power strip that I hardwired into the Topaz to see what I could see.  The THD was a little lower than the wall outlet and the waveform was just as bad.  Flat topped, skewed sine wave.  I dedicated the Topaz to my HQPlayer server and LPSU powered drives.  My NAAs are powered by Uptone JS-2s into a PS regenerator

 

I now also find find no difference with or without any DC neg grounding.  We do it in our industrial equipment because we never know what type of power environment it will live in, and factories are baaaaaad.  I plugged in a system once and watched the cable start to melt from the outlet being wired incorrectly at the panel!  We make a “transceiver” for 5 Hz - 5 MHz incorporating both a DDCDAC and an ADC so we also use a pretty serious Powervar power conditioner.  But, I think by now we all know about good grounding and power.   

 

So for my system, which consists of generally well engineered components, the benefits are there. Better soundstage, longer decays.  Does everybody’s system let you hear the ambience after a piece is over and before they cut off the recording?  Like the sheet

music fluttering and the whum whum whum of the HVAC. 

 

Maybe we should start a thread on Regenerators but I won’t do it, I’m convinced they are good in my system.  P10s are almost always available at US$2999.  P5s are almost never on sale and I can’t figure out why.  Maybe they cost to much to make?  Wouldn’t be the first product to suffer that fate.  I don’t know if they even make the P3 any more.  Maybe you could

power a headphone setup with it.  

 

Apologies in advance for typos, run on or incomplete sentences, etc.  I hate phone typing!

 

[austinpop]

15 minutes ago, Solstice380 said:

 

Wow, I was traveling today and there were 15 or so more posts since then!

 

I’ve found the PS regenerators helpful in my system / location.   We tend to have poor quality power - up to 4% THD and definite power factor issues.   So time of day and phase of the moon would change the SQ. 

 

The dedicated circuit wasn’t feasible at the time but I did make that move eventually.   Ted, you can have many runs but see which type panel you have and keep them on the same phase.  And put the fridge and microwave etc on the other!

 

i started with a Chang Lightspeed and then a Transparent Ref

conditioner.   I then tried a PS Power Plant Premier and ended up with 3 of them.  @austinpop mentioned not putting your amp on an UNDERSIZED regenerator.  I added the undersized caveat. Despite the specs for current delivery etc that are great with these things, I think they over rate them.  I now have a P10 for the front end a P10 for the amp only.  The P5 isnt even big enough for a front end with very many components.  I wouldn’t put

more than a few hundred watts load on it for it to perform its best.  The PPP and P10 have the same 1500 watt rating but the P10 is fine for my amp where the PPP wasn’t.  There is a reason why PS has introduced the P20!  I’ve also heard a solid demo on the big Stromtank unit out of

Germany.   Similar idea but wicked expensive and probably better than the PS.  Also, PS is now using DSD to generate the signal and not PCM.  ?  When it comes to

power, more is always better.  Oversized PSUs in components are usually better for SQ.  Heat be damned. 

 

I snagged a Topaz off eBay to try.  750VA 0.0005 cap -31 model and put my whole front end on it in place of the P10.  Hundreds vs thousands of $ is worth a try.  It collapsed the soundstage noticeably.  No question.  The newer PS units have some measurement and graphical capabilities so I plugged it into the Belkin power strip that I hardwired into the Topaz to see what I could see.  The THD was a little lower than the wall outlet and the waveform was just as bad.  Flat topped, skewed sine wave.  I dedicated the Topaz to my HQPlayer server and LPSU powered drives.  My NAAs are powered by Uptone JS-2s into a PS regenerator

 

I now also find find no difference with or without any DC neg grounding.  We do it in our industrial equipment because we never know what type of power environment it will live in, and factories are baaaaaad.  I plugged in a system once and watched the cable start to melt from the outlet being wired incorrectly at the panel!  We make a “transceiver” for 5 Hz - 5 MHz incorporating both a DDCDAC and an ADC so we also use a pretty serious Powervar power conditioner.  But, I think by now we all know about good grounding and power.   

 

So for my system, which consists of generally well engineered components, the benefits are there. Better soundstage, longer decays.  Does everybody’s system let you hear the ambience after a piece is over and before they cut off the recording?  Like the sheet

music fluttering and the whum whum whum of the HVAC. 

 

Maybe we should start a thread on Regenerators but I won’t do it, I’m convinced they are good in my system.  P10s are almost always available at US$2999.  P5s are almost never on sale and I can’t figure out why.  Maybe they cost to much to make?  Wouldn’t be the first product to suffer that fate.  I don’t know if they even make the P3 any more.  Maybe you could

power a headphone setup with it.  

 

Apologies in advance for typos, run on or incomplete sentences, etc.  I hate phone typing!

 

 

Thanks for detailing your experiences, especially with the Topaz. That's good to know.

 

Regarding plugging amps into regenerators... As you know, I run a headphone setup. While my Cavalli Liquid Gold is a beast of an amp by headphone standards, it's puny by normal amp standards. In fact, my entire system plugged into the P5 draws under 150 watts, of which the Cavalli draws about 70W. So this is about 15% utilization, right?

 

And yet... I find that plugging my amp directly to my dedicated circuit, rather than through the P5, gives me better dynamics. There is clearly more going on here than can be explained by average power or current demand. At some level, it underscores the need for oversized power supplies. I think music makes instantaneous peak current demands that are many orders of magnitude higher than the mean. This is my best explanation for what I am hearing.

 

But that said, I do find the P5 raised the SQ of my system. Would one of the other expensive power conditioners do better? Maybe. But I was able to snag a rare P5 on the used market at 50% MSRP, so I just went for it. I suspect with the new P5 and P10 MkII's (or whatever they call it) coming out soon, we should start to see more used P5 and P10s on the used market soon.

[Johnseye]

5 hours ago, ted_b said:

Sorry to hijack this, but could you provide more detail?  I have a newly purchased home in Denver we will be moving to soon, and the dedicated basement (high ceilings, etc) music room plan is somewhat near the mains box, so running a dedicated line(s) will not be problematic.  However, I was under the misguided impression that two lines (one for amps, one for other) might introduce ground loops, etc.  I needed, send me to a different link so as not to hijack, worst case.  Thx

 

Congrats on your move to Denver.  I've been dreaming of doing that for years.  One day. 

 

Plan this one out well.  Staggered studs, good insulation throughout, even the ceiling.  You can do double layers of drywall with special glue between.  There is duct soundproofing material you can insert inside the ductwork and out if you'd like.  This helps keep noise down.  Also, consider insulating house water and drain pipes.  When those are running you can hear them.  Think about all the effort we make to eliminate noise from electricity, then think similarly for your dedicated room.  It not only keeps noise out, but it keeps it in.  Not sure if it's a dual purpose theater room, but AV guys put a lot into this.  Lots of good info out there.

 

With regard to your electric run(s), Rajiv provided an excellent link and gave sound advice.  Denver's pretty dry so you'll probably be fine with moisture, but another reason for the silver paste, other than the conductivity, is that it eliminates copper wire corrosion.

 

Twist the hot and neutral wires only, let the ground run along separately.  I used a 2x4 with a hole cut in, stuck the wire pair into it and on the other end stuck the wires into my electric drill.  One person holds the board, the other let's the drill run and those wires twist up nice and tight.  Use conduit to help reduce EMI/RF.  You can do some special things with the outlet boxes.  Put all noisy devices, compressors, pumps, etc on one phase.  Then put your music and video circuits on the other.  There may need to be some balance, or good consideration into how the neutral is run.  Planning here is key.  You can do some stuff with the grounding rod.  Special material fill around the rod.

 

Plan well where you want to run outlets, lighting.  Keep speaker, video and other similar cables away from the electric runs in the walls.  Not sure what you already know so I just thought of everything I could.  Much easier to do it before the walls are up.  Drywall ceilings are a PITA.  They look better, insulate better and could make sound proofing easier, but when you need to get in there, drop down is so much easier.

 

[austinpop]

Here's a screenshot of my P5 web dashboard:

 

 

Since I don't have the amp on there, you'll see I'm only using ~87W. What's also interesting is that even though this dedicated circuit is all of 5 feet from its breaker on the main panel, the input THD is at 3.8%. In fact, it's fluctuating around 4%. And this is before the Texas AC season goes into full swing.

 

My point is that even with a dedicated circuit, the noise on the line isn't greatly diminished, which may be because it's coming in off the main power feed from the city.

 

Whatever the reason, I really dig the 0.1% THD on the regenerator's output!

[jamesg11]

43 minutes ago, Solstice380 said:

I snagged a Topaz off eBay to try.  750VA 0.0005 cap -31 model and put my whole front end on it in place of the P10.  Hundreds vs thousands of $ is worth a try.  It collapsed the soundstage noticeably.  No question.  The newer PS units have some measurement and graphical capabilities so I plugged it into the Belkin power strip that I hardwired into the Topaz to see what I could see.  The THD was a little lower than the wall outlet and the waveform was just as bad.  Flat topped, skewed sine wave.  I dedicated the Topaz to my HQPlayer server and LPSU powered drives.  My NAAs are powered by Uptone JS-2s into a PS regenerator

Dunno, ... but I’m pleased with my Elgar iso tran, also 0.0005pdf - but of significance is its 2.5kVa size, & handling all audio on a dedicated line with separate phase to the rest of the household.

Haven’t tried a regenerator.

[ted_b]

28 minutes ago, Johnseye said:

Congrats on your move to Denver.  I've been dreaming of doing that for years.  One day. 

 

Plan this one out well.  Staggered studs, good insulation throughout, even the ceiling..............

Yes, we are looking forward to it.  This will be my second music room build.  Our current home has a dedicated room, with a floating front wall, HAR slats on the ceiling cloud and side walls, etc.  Jeff Hedback of Hedback Design helped me with it, as he will with the new one.

 

Thx...great ideas.

[hurka]

59 minutes ago, austinpop said:

Here's a screenshot of my P5 web dashboard:

 

 

Since I don't have the amp on there, you'll see I'm only using ~87W. What's also interesting is that even though this dedicated circuit is all of 5 feet from its breaker on the main panel, the input THD is at 3.8%. In fact, it's fluctuating around 4%. And this is before the Texas AC season goes into full swing.

 

My point is that even with a dedicated circuit, the noise on the line isn't greatly diminished, which may be because it's coming in off the main power feed from the city.

 

Whatever the reason, I really dig the 0.1% THD on the regenerator's output!

4% Around 10pm?

[austinpop]

9 minutes ago, hurka said:

4% Around 10pm?

 

At 8:30pm.

[hurka]

can you check around 23pm? my home almost always good this time.im ordered dussun ct 1 ,if the AC distorted ,I

don't turn on my system,i go to gym!! 

[look&listen]

3 hours ago, lmitche said:

What would be a better diode bridge? I had a similar r-type fail here last week, so I'm not going there.

Schottky or fast-soft recovery. old thread- http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=to08c9823o57uqska3vi7tptabf3c057&topic=20682.msg183220#msg183220

 

What similar fail?

[Johnseye]

2 hours ago, ted_b said:

Yes, we are looking forward to it.  This will be my second music room build.  Our current home has a dedicated room, with a floating front wall, HAR slats on the ceiling cloud and side walls, etc.  Jeff Hedback of Hedback Design helped me with it, as he will with the new one.

 

Thx...great ideas.

 

You've got a nice looking room from the pictures Ted.  I'm guessing the slats and treatments are easily removed and can be reused.  I'm also guessing Jeff did an excellent job.  Was it all done remotely with you installing?

[austinpop]

25 minutes ago, Johnseye said:

 

You've got a nice looking room from the pictures Ted.  I'm guessing the slats and treatments are easily removed and can be reused.  I'm also guessing Jeff did an excellent job.  Was it all done remotely with you installing?

 

What pictures?  

[Johnseye]

1 minute ago, austinpop said:

 

What pictures?  

 

I did some snooping.  Since Ted made them public I'm guessing he's ok with it.  Check out Jeff's site.

[KingRex]

Doesn't Hedback give an electrical plan with his designs.