A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming

rickca · March 8, 2018

3 hours ago, austinpop said:

Actually, I wasn't thinking of MC-3+ to the DAC via USB. Is that even possible? I thought the MC-3+ USB only output via synchronous modes like coax, toslink, and AES/EBU.

This confused me too.

LTG2010 · March 8, 2018

2 hours ago, RickyV said:

what do you mean by “atx mode”? Is that bios setting?

You can power the entire board from the 4 pin 12V connector. When you connect the 24 pin connector you are connecting 5v standby plus power ok line etc, signals to processor plus the seperate voltages, this is what I meant by ATX mode ,the board receives 'ATX' supply signals, there is no special Bios setting.

1 hour ago, RickyV said:

Btw i noticed the zenith se uses a 20 pin atx connector and not a 24 pin.

The last 4 pins on a 24 pin ATX connector supply the PCIE slots and are design to deliver the extra current for current hungry graphics cards etc. If not using PCIE slots or have externally powered USB cards etc, then I think you can do away with those 4 pins and use a 20 pin connector.

flkin · March 9, 2018

18 hours ago, LTG2010 said:

Firstly thanks for the detailed write up, especialy listing all your musical choices.

I think the key here is how good is the Antipodes USB output? Keeping the switch should not matter.

How good is the USB out when it is re-clocked by the txUSB Ultra. Can the Mutec components be added to this re-clocking chain somehow, and then on to the DAC?

The ultimate question is then which sounds better, ethernet out to Ultrarendu and or the trifecta/ reclocking chain?

Or USB out to reclocking chain?

Some of us have ditched our renderers for USB, do we need to go back to ethernet now? it never ends

You're welcome.

In my list of further tests above, I made an error which was noticed by @austinpop a dozen or so posts above. After looking at @Kritpoon's equipment more carefully I now understand what he requested. The output of the Antipodes is USB and will connect to the tX-USBultra via USB and then to the DAC via USB. The switch has nothing to do with it.

And also the MC3+usb cannot output USB. So any tests using it will still have to connect to the DAC by coax. I can pass USB data into the MC3+usb only.

I'll reply Rajiv's post above which details the correct connections for comments about further tests.

17 hours ago, magnuska said:

Hello! Many thanks for your write up and testing!

I also use the VR Lio with DAC 2.0 and am a little concerned that it would not see the Antipodes DX-3. I am now using the sotM sms-200 ultra with Iso Regen direct to the DAC. My hope was to be able to slim down the nr of boxes and was thinking of the new Antipodes EX acting as the renderer. My current server will also be used with the new direct ethernet connection. Making it a kind of budget CX-EX solution.

Wonder why Antipodes seem to focus on noise everywhere and starting on the MOBO - no advanced clocking there. It seems that they are working hard to remove noise before at its core and therefore minimising the need of better clocking but this is my own thinking.

Thanks for your comments. I managed to get the Antipodes DXgen3 to see the VR LIO DAC2.0 by passing the DX USB output into the tX-USBultra first then to the DAC. All USB. So that helps.

16 hours ago, Confused said:

One point regarding the Habst vs RG216 comparison. My understanding is that the REF10, in particular due to it's square wave output, is very sensitive to cable quality and cable length. So in this comparison, the Habst has the advantage of being the shorter cable. (0.5m vs 0.9m for the RG216)

This makes me wonder, how much of the improvement is due to the Habst cable itself, and how much due to the shorter length. My hunch is that the cable length is less significant in this case, but you never know. This begs the question, has anyone tried different lengths of identical cable between the REF10 and say an MC3+USB? Personally, I have a whole list of things I need to try, but I do have RG216 cables in both 12" and 24" lengths, so this is something I can try once I've sorted my immediate niggles out.

Also, how much of an influence does the Habst ground connector make? Are there better cables than the Habst that would actually not perform as well overall because the Habst ground connector is making a big influence?

The only other BNC cable I had on hand that was 0.5m long was the Cybershaft standard copper black one. And the silver Habst was clearly better.

flkin · March 9, 2018

15 hours ago, rickca said:

I got this image from the Habst website.

That might be the Habst cable we used. Perhaps @Kritpoon can confirm? The one we used had 2 BNC connectors on one side and both was connected to the Ref10, and the other side a single BNC attached to the MC3+usb. The picture shown lacks that additional connector but that might be just that, a detachable connector. The cables look about right the grounding 3rd cable slightly thinner than the signal cables.

I've got a multi-meter around and will test the electrical connections later.

13 hours ago, Kritpoon said:

@flkin lets set up for the 2nd round of test! LOL....

Let's do it!

13 hours ago, Kritpoon said:

The second ground connection is also a mystery to me and @flkin, but we have experimented in 2 ways: 1) hot unplug the ground cable from the REF10 2) Turn off the output of REF10 that's connect to the ground plug. In both experiments, we found that without the ground plug connection, the degradation of sound was very apparent and easily heard. As for the SQ impact @flkin might have to chime in, since I was the one unplugging and turn-on/off the output with @flkin in the listening position. But from where, I am standing (in front of the equipments rack) the sound is easily distinguishable for connect/ not connected of the ground cable.

I think we need to revisit this as in the past few days, I've had a change to try different connection combinations of this cable and there are definite sound changes. I need a second pair of ears to confirm what I heard. Our earlier tests was only with one music track, I think we need to expand on this.

For example, using this 75ohm cable on 50ohm connections. What happens? With and without that second grounding BNC?

11 hours ago, SwissBear said:

Thank you. Can I ask what was the 'Energizer' used to power the LPS-1 ?

We used the Maxwell SMPS that was bundled with the LPS-1. No JSGT

rickca · March 9, 2018

10 minutes ago, flkin said:

That's not the Habst cable we used. The one had 2 BNC connectors on one side and both was connected to the Ref10, and the other side a single BNC attached to the MC3+usb.

Thanks for the clarification. I can't find a cable matching your description on the Habst website.

flkin · March 9, 2018

1 minute ago, rickca said:

Thanks for the clarification. I can't find a cable matching your description on the Habst website.

I adjusted my post to say it may be the correct one but just that it didn't show the BNC connector attached to the ground. You replied so quickly my edit didn't make it to you first I think!

rickca · March 9, 2018

8 minutes ago, flkin said:

I adjusted my post to say it may be the correct one but just that it didn't show the BNC connector attached to the ground. You replied so quickly my edit didn't make it to you first I think!

LOL yes I noticed your edit after I posted! I'm interested in what you're doing and paying attention. It's past midnight here in Florida so I'll catch up with you tomorrow.

flkin · March 9, 2018

15 hours ago, austinpop said:

I had the same type of issue with USB handshaking between the Zenith SE and my Codex DAC. It sounds like both Innuos and Antipodes are wanting to use flaky onboard USB controllers in the interest of low-noise. Innuos had suggested - and I even tried - using the iFi iPurifier2 to remediate the problem. It does work, but did strange things to SQ, and in any case, made no architectural sense in the clocking hierarchy.

Actually, I wasn't thinking of MC-3+ to the DAC via USB. Is that even possible? I thought the MC-3+ USB only output via synchronous modes like coax, toslink, and AES/EBU.

Yes indeed.

Are you saying you tried the Habst 75 Ω cable between a 75 Ω port on your Ref-10 and the tX-USBultra, which is configured (i.e. terminated) at 50 Ω? Interesting. Such a configuration will technically have reflections on the link due to the impedance mismatch.

We will have it sooner, as Eric @limniscate is #10 on the queue. Looking forward to it!

I'm not sure why you show the modded switch in that position between the Antipodes and the tX-USBultra? This link: "Antipodes > tX-USBultra" is a USB link.

But yes, as others have suggested - keep the modded switch in place. Also, I highly recommend using local files - either on the Mac or Antipodes, based on the test. For all of the comparisons below, I assume:

your modded switch is connected to your router, or a bridge on your Mac

tX-USBultra and MC-3+ are clocked with Ref 10

Compare:

Baseline: Mac > (Ethernet) mod switch > (Ethernet) > modded sMS-200 > (USB) > tX-USBultra > (USB) > DAC

Replace Mac with Antipodes: Antipodes > (Ethernet) mod switch > (Ethernet) > modded sMS-200 > (USB) > tX-USBultra > (USB) > DAC

Remove sMS: mod switch > (Ethernet) > Antipodes > (USB) > tX-USBultra > (USB) > DAC

Replace tX with MC-3+ USB: mod switch > (Ethernet) > Antipodes > (USB) > MC-3+ USB > (S/PDIF) > DAC

Both tX and MC-3+ USB: mod switch > (Ethernet) > Antipodes > (USB) > tX-USBultra > (USB) > MC-3+ USB > (S/PDIF) > DAC

If you substitute "Zenith SE" for "Antipodes," and "dX-USB HD Ultra" for "MC-3+ USB," these are the same experiments Eric and I have tried in the past. Please do give it a shot if you could.

I managed to get the Antipodes USB output to work with the VR LIO DAC 2.0 but only if I pass it through the tX-USBultra first. So there's that additional advantage of using the tX in the chain until Antipodes finds a way for this.

And you are absolutely correct to question what I incorrectly said about the MC3+. It cannot output USB and so my earlier list of follow up experiments needs revision and the switch has nothing to do with it. Although it's not my half of the equipment, I should have checked before posting.

About the Habst, I had the cable on hand and was curious how it would compare with the Cybershaft black cable at the same length. So I did the following: Habst 2 connectors (signal and ground) in the Ref.10 both @ 50ohms to the tx-USBultra 50ohm connector. This cable is rated at 75ohms. It plays as expected but whether it's better than the Cybershaft black I have to listen further. Initial impression when playing my Mac/Trifecta/IR, the sound with the Habst is substantially thicker and vocal more forward and there seems to be a drop in details. At this time, I might prefer the Cybershaft black.

15 hours ago, austinpop said:

..For all of the comparisons below, I assume:

your modded switch is connected to your router, or a bridge on your Mac

tX-USBultra and MC-3+ are clocked with Ref 10

Compare:

Baseline: Mac > (Ethernet) mod switch > (Ethernet) > modded sMS-200 > (USB) > tX-USBultra > (USB) > DAC

Replace Mac with Antipodes: Antipodes > (Ethernet) mod switch > (Ethernet) > modded sMS-200 > (USB) > tX-USBultra > (USB) > DAC

Remove sMS: mod switch > (Ethernet) > Antipodes > (USB) > tX-USBultra > (USB) > DAC

Replace tX with MC-3+ USB: mod switch > (Ethernet) > Antipodes > (USB) > MC-3+ USB > (S/PDIF) > DAC

Both tX and MC-3+ USB: mod switch > (Ethernet) > Antipodes > (USB) > tX-USBultra > (USB) > MC-3+ USB > (S/PDIF) > DAC

If you substitute "Zenith SE" for "Antipodes," and "dX-USB HD Ultra" for "MC-3+ USB," these are the same experiments Eric and I have tried in the past. Please do give it a shot if you could.

The clock cables will be Habst from Ref.10 to MC3+ and Cybershaft black cable from Ref.10 to tX-USBultra.

Thanks for adding the connection type for clarity. Will try and get @Kritpoon back when he is free and do these. Oh the work....

(1) is my usual setup but with the switched clock.

SwissBear · March 9, 2018

5 hours ago, flkin said:

We used the Maxwell SMPS that was bundled with the LPS-1. No JSGT

Thanks for this precision and renewed congrats for the tests/report.

beautiful music · March 9, 2018

Does any one know which one of the following route is better:

1-sMS-200Ultra + modded switch + tX-USBUltra

2-Or tX-USBUltra + Master Clock

Also I’m curious to know how sMS-200Ultra + modded switch + Master Clock would compare to Zenith SE.

austinpop · March 9, 2018

In preparation for my comparison of the Mutec Ref 10 and the Cybershaft OP-14, I went back and looked at the latest published phase noise specs for these units, Here is the data in tabular form. Note that the OP-14 column indicates the actual measurements for my OP-14 unit that Cybershaft sent me in the data sheet.

Comparison of Published Phase noise (dBC/Hz @ offset frequency)

Frequency sCLK-OCX10 Reference My OP-14 (actual) Ref 10 (published)
1Hz : -114.8 ≤ -116

       10Hz :   ≤ -140 -132.4 ≤ -145
       100Hz :   ≤ -160 -141.9 ≤ -160
       1KHz :   ≤ -165 ≤ -166
      Noise floor: ≤ -170

austinpop · March 10, 2018

Quick Take: Ref 10 vs. OP-14

I picked up @limniscate's Ref 10 yesterday, and after about 24 hours of warm-up in my system, Eric stopped by this afternoon for some listening. I had already cheated, and done some listening last night, after only a few hours of warmup.

I used a 50 Ω output (#1) from the Ref 10, and the same Cybershaft 50 Ω 0.5m cable for both clocks, feeding my tX-USBultra. We had no other cables on had hand to compare.

Well, I can only confirm what @flkin and @Kritpoon already reported. The Ref 10 is just another level above the OP-14. If you've heard the effect of a reference clock, this is just more of the same. As my teen daughter would jokingly say: "more clockular!" The best analogy is the focus of a camera lens. Going from the OP-14 to the Ref 10, instruments take on an even more realistic dimension, extremely fine details become easier to discern.

So Bangkok and Austin both agree - the Ref 10 outperforms the Cybershaft OP-14. No contest. Dang it!

But at least this difference is consistent with the published phase noise specs (Ref 10 has lower phase noise) and price (Ref 10 is pricier). You get what you pay for!

auricgoldfinger · March 10, 2018

6 minutes ago, austinpop said:

Quick Take: Ref 10 vs. OP-14

I picked up @limniscate's Ref 10 yesterday, and after about 24 hours of warm-up in my system, Eric stopped by this afternoon for some listening. I had already cheated, and done some listening last night, after only a few hours of warmup.

I used a 50 Ω output (#1) from the Ref 10, and the same Cybershaft 50 Ω 0.5m cable for both clocks, feeding my tX-USBultra. We had no other cables on had hand to compare.

Well, I can only confirm what @flkin and @Kritpoon already reported. The Ref 10 is just another level above the OP-14. If you've heard the effect of a reference clock, this is just more of the same. As my teen daughter would jokingly say: "more clockular!" The best analogy is the focus of a camera lens. Going from the OP-14 to the Ref 10, instruments take on an even more realistic dimension, extremely fine details become easier to discern.

So Bangkok and Austin both agree - the Ref 10 outperforms the Cybershaft OP-14. No contest. Dang it!

But at least this difference is consistent with the published phase noise specs (Ref 10 has lower phase noise) and price (Ref 10 is pricier). You get what you pay for!

For me, the $64,000 question is how my sCLK-OCX10 (with upgraded Evox capacitors and eABS-200 EMF paper) powered by a Paul Hynes SR5DRXL compares to the REF10 with its slightly lower phase noise at 10Hz and a lesser internal power supply.

austinpop · March 10, 2018

Followup: SR-4 vs. LPS-1.2 with silver cable

Yesterday I also received @mozes's homebrew silver DC cable. So while Eric was here, we did a comparison of this cable compared to my trusty Ghent Canare 4S6 starquad cable. Both Moussa's cable and the Ghent use Oyaide DC barrels, except Moussa's are 2.5mm, which still work fine on the LPS-1.2 and the tX-USBultra.

Verdict: WOW! That cable may be silver, but sonically it's pure gold. The difference is not subtle! The sound is more open, more dynamic. What surprised me is that the silver cable is not brighter. If anything, it is smoother. This is unlike what I typically associate with analog interconnects and cables in silver. Very interesting, but perhaps not surprising, as the SR-4 with Paul's silver cable is anything but bright or harsh.

So how does the LPS-1.2 with Moussa's silver cable compare to the SR-4 with it's silver cable? For me, the LPS-1.2+silver cable combo is a touch more dynamic. However, even with the smoothness of the silver cable, the LPS-1.2 combo still ticks a bit brighter than the SR-4 combo. On my system, both Eric and I felt the SR-4 synergized better, but it was very, very close. I can certainly see how in some systems, the LPS-1.2 combo may be the superior.

austinpop · March 10, 2018

3 minutes ago, auricgoldfinger said:

For me, the $64,000 question is how my sCLK-OCX10 (with upgraded Evox capacitors and eABS-200 EMF paper) powered by a Paul Hynes SR5DRXL compares to the REF10 with its slightly lower phase noise at 10Hz and a lesser internal power supply.

Road trip! Once you OCX10 is burned in, let's plan a Clock-a-polooza in Austin.

When do you get you OCX10?

austinpop · March 10, 2018

Today, I also received some more goodies that I'll report on in a few days, after I've had a listen.

First up: @atxkyle saw my plaintive "if only I had an sPS-500 to compare" post of a few days ago, and kindly offered up his unit for a few days. It's now warming up, and I look forward to seeing how it compares to the SR-4 and LPS-1.2. Of course, it only has the Ghent starquad cable. If only I had a SOtM silver sPS-500 DC cable!

Also: I received the correct HFT Supreme fuses that match my Cavalli amp, so I will be evaluating these. As you may recall, the HFT fuse really had no appreciable effect in my P5 regenerator, and the Zenith SE. It will be interesting to see whether they do on the analog side of my system. If they do, I will also try it on my Codex DAC, and possibly order the SR Blue for eval too.

Stay tuned.

d_elm · March 10, 2018

1 hour ago, beautiful music said:

Does any one know which one of the following route is better:

1-sMS-200Ultra + modded switch + tX-USBUltra

2-Or tX-USBUltra + Master Clock

Also I’m curious to know how sMS-200Ultra + modded switch + Master Clock would compare to Zenith SE.

Another option, which I am using is

modded switch + sMS-200Ultra + tx-USBhubEX + master clock

where the 200ultra provides the clock for the switch and USBhubEX.

auricgoldfinger · March 10, 2018

19 minutes ago, austinpop said:

Road trip! Once you OCX10 is burned in, let's plan a Clock-a-polooza in Austin.

When do you get you OCX10?

Well, that's a long story. Due to an issue with the order, I am returning it and awaiting a replacement. Hopefully, the new unit will be in hand in a couple of weeks. I don't expect to receive the SR5DRXL until July or August, assuming Paul has no further production hiccups. Until then, the OCX10 will be powered by an sPS-500.

mozes · March 10, 2018

15 minutes ago, austinpop said:

. If only I had a SOtM silver sPS-500 DC cable!

Lol, I have these and they make the sPS-500 a killer PSU, but I can’t live without them

elan120 · March 10, 2018

3 minutes ago, mozes said:

Lol, I have these and they make the sPS-500 a killer PSU, but I can’t live without them

Great to know...I just got them ordered last week.

mozes · March 10, 2018

2 minutes ago, elan120 said:

Great to know...I just got them ordered last week.

My cables are not from SOTM. Steven from Audiosensibility builds them for me.

elan120 · March 10, 2018

1 minute ago, mozes said:

My cables are not from SOTM. Steven from Audiosensibility builds them for me.

Got it...I guess I will be testing the SOtM silver cable then.

auricgoldfinger · March 10, 2018

24 minutes ago, mozes said:

My cables are not from SOTM. Steven from Audiosensibility builds them for me.

What is Steven's contact information?

elan120 · March 10, 2018

6 minutes ago, auricgoldfinger said:

What is Steven's contact information?

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Audio+sensibility

seeteeyou · March 10, 2018

On 3/8/2018 at 4:17 AM, mfin said:

Pure sliver hookup wires seem to stop at 22 AWG (£33/m) for solid and 20AWG (£56/m) for multi-strand (both Neotech). 1 metre will do to make the 50cm lead I want to make.

Are you suggesting multiple runs?

Neotech could go up to 12 AWG but nobody would sell them

http://www.neotechcable.com/product9.php

https://diraudio.pl/diraudio-jako-autoryzowany-partner-marki-neotech/

18 AWG as follows

https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=15985627183

http://www.fruitofthetube.com/neotech-stdst-18awg-silver-multistrand-wire-up-occ/

http://www.soniccraft.com/product_info.php/neotech-stranded-upocc-silver-in-teflon-18-awg-blue-p-1882

18 AWG for OCC silver

https://www.vhaudio.com/wire.html#vhsilverhookup

Up to 14 AWG here

http://ccsilver.com/silver/fines.html

And then up to 12 AWG here