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A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming


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Most important: please realize this thread is about bleeding edge experimentation and discovery. No one has The Answer™. If you are not into tweaking, just know that you can have a musically satisfying system without doing any of the nutty things we do here.

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3 hours ago, lmitche said:

On the motherboard project, I am delighted to be asked to manage this, but would like to have a quick talk with Ted before committing.

 

Like seeteeyou, I also have some thoughts about requirements and additional research that should be done before proceeding. Stay tuned for a longer post explaining my position. I'll expect to write that over the weekend.

 

Larry, that is wonderful. You're the natural choice!

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I almost have my new trifecta system all together. For those have experimented with different Ethernet cables in different places along the chain, just curious as to how you would rank the following placements in terms of importance (to producing the best end result)? 

 

(A) From Mac Mini to modded SMS

(B) From Switch to Mac Mini

(C) From NAS to Switch

(D) From Cable Modem to Switch

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9 minutes ago, spotforscott said:

I almost have my new trifecta system all together. For those have experimented with different Ethernet cables in different places along the chain, just curious as to how you would rank the following placements in terms of importance (to producing the best end result)? 

 

(A) From Mac Mini to modded SMS

(B) From Switch to Mac Mini

(C) From NAS to Switch

(D) From Cable Modem to Switch

 

I have not done a ton of experiments in this area. However, I would add that it's about both cables AND topology.

 

For cables, I've only really compared cables between modded switch and modded sMS. I think that's where your best cable should go. 

 

For topology, I would recommend:

  • cable modem+router > MacMini > modded switch > sMS (i.e. bridged)
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20 minutes ago, spotforscott said:

I almost have my new trifecta system all together. For those have experimented with different Ethernet cables in different places along the chain, just curious as to how you would rank the following placements in terms of importance (to producing the best end result)? 

 

(A) From Mac Mini to modded SMS

(B) From Switch to Mac Mini

(C) From NAS to Switch

(D) From Cable Modem to Switch

 

In my experience the best cable should run between the modded switch to modded SMS. 

 

 

 

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On 3/2/2018 at 1:51 AM, seeteeyou said:

 

Indeed, 3 slots should be the bare minimum if we're having absolutely no on-board SATA/USB/Ethernet components. We just can't really go above 3 with either Kaby Lake or Coffee Lake. To get more than 3 slots / 16 lanes, we'll have to think about the power-hungry Core X-series with 28 or even 40 lanes.

 

Now we just need to decide whether we still wanna have one more slot for a display card or not.

 

 

That's gonna be the $64,000 question, depending on what kinda approach we're going after. Let's say we're shooting for that "Go Big or Go Home" approach, how on Earth could anyone be contented with anything less than the performance of sCLK-EX? All we need is just asking DFI to solder the right connector to the location where the clock(s) is/are required, then they'll let us specify the frequency in the manual and we'll figure out what kinda clock(s) should we get.

 

And then it doesn't HAVE to be sCLK-EX to begin with, we might also get Neutrino 2 since an owner of Singxer SU-1 already had a taste of that already

 

http://www.newclassd.com/index.php?page=24

ttps://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/29553-my-very-mini-review-of-the-singxer-su-1-ddc/?page=52&tab=comments#comment-788425

 

 

Most likely Mini-ITX cases wouldn't have the space to accommodate 3 (or more) PCI Express add-on cards, while we still wanna keep the size of that motherboard reasonably small for the sake of short clock cables. Let's see how we'd like to strike the right balance then.

 

 

Now we've gotta reach a consensus at some point. Not all of us here are owners of SR7 with lots of rails, while the current draw of each component would obviously depend on what we're doing. Feeding the CPU with its dedicated power source should be a given since that's already reported by Larry and others. And then Sligolad also boosted the SQ big time when he fed power to his RAM separately with LT3045 @ 3A.

 

How about the PCH if we weren't even having anything connected to that, as long as we've got our own PCI Express display cards? Maybe ask DFI and see if PCH were actually required for a motherboard to function properly or otherwise.

 

SATA / USB / Ethernet should be taken care of already since we'll add our own PCI Express cards. What else do we need?

 

Of course we've gotta consider what to do about the 4-pin/8-pin CPU connector in addition to the 24-pin ATX connector. We're expected to provide 12V for the 4-pin/8-pin CPU connector while it's inevitable that will go through a voltage regulator, given that CPU itself should require only 1V or so. Now that we're planning to feed the CPU with a dedicated source of power, do we still need that 4-pin/8-pin CPU connector or not?

 

Similarly, our game plan (for the best case scenario that is) should be feeding each and every component with a separate power source in order to prevent "lousy" voltage regulators from ruining the day. If that particular mission were actually accomplished, maybe we could also ask DFI to find out if that 24-pin ATX connector were still necessary?

 

Like what I said before, it just really depends on whether we're going all out or are we contended with something that might be "as good as" or marginally better than Supermicro X10SBA-L.

I think we should aim to beat Supermicro X10SBA-L a mile away, more so our target should be on the Antipodes that uses special ASUS board. I am not tech savvy but I think you have covered most of the critical points on music server correctly. I hope the outcome is a very competent music server or streamer, whether it supports upsampling to dsd should be excluded at this stage. In future, for upsampling may be it could be implemented exclusively at external GPU cards with additional noise filter cards like those bitcoin mining machines. For display and configuration I think  it can has one vga, one usb port only at dedicated grouped circuit which can be disabled from bios or manually disconnect the jumper to disable the circuit. Music storage can be run on one internal sata port. 3 pcie slots are about right. The cpu clock should be on sub module and supplied with LT3045 regulator which can be changed. No dc-dc regulation on the motherboard but instead all use LT3045 regulators. As said I am not tech savvy but just thinking out loud.

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On 3/1/2018 at 11:09 PM, ted_b said:

What a great idea! 

OK so the new dedicated thread for the motherboard project should have a catchier name than this thread.  How about El Taco Supremo?

Pareto Audio AMD 7700 Server --> Berkeley Alpha USB --> Jeff Rowland Aeris --> Jeff Rowland 625 S2 --> Focal Utopia 3 Diablos with 2 x Focal Electra SW 1000 BE subs

 

i7-6700K/Windows 10  --> EVGA Nu Audio Card --> Focal CMS50's 

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46 minutes ago, rickca said:

El Taco Supremo?

My personal fav..chalupa!!!  FTW!

12TB NAS >> i7-6700 Server/Control PC >> i3-5015u NAA >> Singxer SU-1 DDC (modded) >> Holo Spring L3 DAC >> Accustic Arts Power 1 int amp >> Sonus Faber Guaneri Evolution speakers + REL T/5i sub (x2)

 

Other components:

UpTone Audio LPS1.2/IsoRegen, Fiber Switch and FMC, Windows Server 2016 OS, Audiophile Optimizer 3.0, Fidelizer Pro 6, HQ Player, Roonserver, PS Audio P3 AC regenerator, HDPlex 400W ATX & 200W Linear PSU, Light Harmonic Lightspeed Split USB cable, Synergistic Research Tungsten AC power cords, Tara Labs The One speaker cables, Tara Labs The Two Extended with HFX Station IC, Oyaide R1 outlets, Stillpoints Ultra Mini footers, Hi-Fi Tuning fuses, Vicoustic/RealTraps/GIK room treatments

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Too funny.  We are never going to agree on specs for the mobo.  Two different thoughts here, the HQP crowd, high enough power for the media player to do it's upsampling/filtering.  The Chord DAC users, low power as possible, to give the DAC the cleanest most accurate bit perfect stream, let the DAC do it's thing with BLU in the path.    Let alone, the whole clocking upgrade of sCLK-EX.

 

I don't see these far two different needs for mobo coming together here.  Low clean separate power/upgraded clocking, small as possible mobo yet capable to carry out minimum OS (Windows 10) needs without some proprietary OS, will fit my needs.  Chord's possible future mini MK2 being more important. 

 

To be honest, I am more than content with my modded sCLK-EX low power Jetway NUC, at the moment, no upgrade itis here.  If I did, it would be on the DAC end with Chord doing the heavy lifting.  No rush, when the price is right.

 

Good luck though!!

 

(JRiver) Jetway barebones NUC (mod 3 sCLK-EX, Cybershaft OP 14)  (PH SR7) => mini pcie adapter to PCIe 1X => tXUSBexp PCIe card (mod sCLK-EX) (PH SR7) => (USPCB) Chord DAVE => Omega Super 8XRS/REL t5i  (All powered thru Topaz Isolation Transformer)

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1 hour ago, ElviaCaprice said:

I don't see these far two different needs for mobo coming together here.  Low clean separate power/upgraded clocking, small as possible mobo yet capable to carry out minimum OS (Windows 10) needs without some proprietary OS, will fit my needs.  Chord's possible future mini MK2 being more important. 

It will need to have socket for user selection of processors, high or low power, also optane support both memory and ssd/ storage via PCIE interface is a good idea, I see that as the future for audio, enough PCIE lanes and sockets to cope, upgraded clocks and capacitors, a connection for direct memory power is good. The modular approach mentioned earlier is a good idea. I agree it will be difficult to please everyone and there are a large choice of boards available that can be modified, eg. the Asus board that Antipodes have chosen- maybe someone could open one up and take a peek.

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1 hour ago, ElviaCaprice said:

Chord's possible future mini MK2 being more important. 

Agree this should be a first priority for Chord users. However, Chord can’t even ramp up the production for Blu2 even after more than a year since  launch. I also want a dedicated Mscaler as I have no need for a CD transport, but I am afraid that we may have to wait for a loooong time. Who knows, maybe some other brand will make a killer product in the near future in terms of performance to price before a new Mscaler sees the light!

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24 minutes ago, LTG2010 said:

It will need to have socket for user selection of processors, high or low power, also optane support both memory and ssd/ storage via PCIE interface is a good idea, I see that as the future for audio, enough PCIE lanes and sockets to cope, upgraded clocks and capacitors, a connection for direct memory power is good. The modular approach mentioned earlier is a good idea. I agree it will be difficult to please everyone and there are a large choice of boards available that can be modified, eg. the Asus board that Antipodes have chosen- maybe someone could open one up and take a peek.

The cost in SQ gain is far too high, yet, in this streamer mobo endeavor.  Still far better to spend those dollars on speaker/amp/DAC,  Until the money spent exceeds or equals the gains from the end of the chain, there isn't going to be much movement in this area.  Right now, $1500 max (outside versatile quality power supply), is all I would be willing to spend on a much improved component over what I already have.  And I just don't see that happening anytime soon, over say a much bigger gain for similiar $$$ in the speaker/amp/DAC area of the chain.  

The fact is, that outside your technical feature and minimum SQ standards being met, the SQ quality gains in the streamer are the least important gains in the overall chain.  Until a versatile audiophile mobo is being commercially produced, which I see possibile on the low power end, first, but still far off in time,  and cost effective, it remains a DIY abyss in dollars and time, in my humble opinion.  Thus my contentment for my current setup.  

But by all means please continue on.  

(JRiver) Jetway barebones NUC (mod 3 sCLK-EX, Cybershaft OP 14)  (PH SR7) => mini pcie adapter to PCIe 1X => tXUSBexp PCIe card (mod sCLK-EX) (PH SR7) => (USPCB) Chord DAVE => Omega Super 8XRS/REL t5i  (All powered thru Topaz Isolation Transformer)

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5 minutes ago, mozes said:

Agree this should be a first priority for Chord users. However, Chord can’t even ramp up the production for Blu2 even after more than a year since  launch. I also want a dedicated Mscaler as I have no need for a CD transport, but I am afraid that we may have to wait for a loooong time. Who knows, maybe some other brand will make a killer product in the near future in terms of performance to price before a new Mscaler sees the light!

I doubt it.  Chord has a financial incentive to put out a mini scaler, soon, within the next year.  Reason being for all the new Chord DAC's that can take advantage of such a device, which Chord implemented and obviously has plans for.  

The mini scaler is just frosting on the cake.  The built in amp stage of Chord DAC's is where I find Chord the leader.  At least as far as the personal near field arena.

(JRiver) Jetway barebones NUC (mod 3 sCLK-EX, Cybershaft OP 14)  (PH SR7) => mini pcie adapter to PCIe 1X => tXUSBexp PCIe card (mod sCLK-EX) (PH SR7) => (USPCB) Chord DAVE => Omega Super 8XRS/REL t5i  (All powered thru Topaz Isolation Transformer)

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3 minutes ago, ElviaCaprice said:

I doubt it.  Chord has a financial incentive to put out a mini scaler, soon, within the next year.  Reason being for all the new Chord DAC's that can take advantage of such a device, which Chord implemented and obviously has plans for.  

The mini scaler is just frosting on the cake.  The built in amp stage of Chord DAC's is where I find Chord the leader.  At least as far as the personal near field arena.

Yes there is a business opportunity to grab there. I like how you already named it “mini scaler” 

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2 hours ago, seeteeyou said:

 

While Chord Blu Mk. 2 might cost more than a custom motherboard plus various components / PSU / clock upgrades, what if we all chip in to share the costs of acquiring that for the sake of M-Scaler? Blu Mk.2 couldn't be (physically) shared by any means but we just need to record its dual BNC coaxial outputs.

 

I just checked their manual below

 

https://chordelectronics.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/BLU-MKII-User-Manual.pdf#page=4

 

And then there's something from a company in Taiwan that does support 768kHz via coaxial, their 384kHz version costs only $120 (NT$3,500) so the latest model shouldn't be that expensive

 

http://goods.ruten.com.tw/item/show?21505385073199

http://www.comtrue-inc.com/index.php/products

 

And then Hugo 2 could accept 768kHz with the right cables/adapters as shown below, most likely combining two 384kHz coaxial outputs into one 768kHz coaxial input should be feasible

 

image.thumb.png.85e3c579827ffa5f8a674a68dcd50fd8.png

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-electronics-blu-mk-2-the-official-thread.831343/page-129#post-13825658

 

image.thumb.png.60b4bb30745e5015d2207626ac345be4.png

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-electronics-blu-mk-2-the-official-thread.831343/page-9#post-13367740

 

image.thumb.png.f7d73c16ae08f45db6c5e871753b390c.png

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-electronics-hugo-2-the-official-thread.831345/page-628#post-13914653

 

They do have a path from S/PDIF input to USB output

 

image.thumb.png.c282456f674685b30648d4f7d7df138a.png

 

Here's the deal. Let's say we could either borrow Blu Mk.2 from a dealer for 30 days or get in touch with an existing owner, we'll find out if those boards from ComTrue were actually capable of recording dual BNC outputs from Blu Mk. 2 while its USB port is connected to any computers. Once we've got those 705.6kHz / 768kHz *.WAV files recorded, we could send them to any owners of Blu Mk. 2 + DAVE combo for comparisons.

 

Those recorded *.WAV files will be played when a music server of some sort is directly connected to DAVE via USB. If those files weren't sounding any worse than the other music server → Blu Mk. 2 → DAVE path, it's gonna be a game changer since we'll only need one Blu Mk.2 to rule them all.

 

BTW, ComTrue is the real deal since their products could be found inside this $4,499 integrated amplifier

 

http://www.micromega.com/downloads/white-paper-UK-v2.pdf#page=7

https://www.dedicatedaudio.com/products/micromega-m-one-integrated-amplifier-with-dac-phono-airplay-bluetooth-and-lan

 

Of course the challenge is finding a trustworthy member with a reliable high-speed Internet connection who's willing to be the "host" of our Blu Mk. 2. We'll simply need to find a way to automate the upscaling process smoothly so that very little to no interactions should be required. Then those of us who are sharing the costs could upload our own files and then download the upscaled ones afterwards. We've got only 24 hours a day but the upscaling must be done in real-time.

 

Maybe it sounds more like a stretch for now but that wouldn't be exactly impossible. If more and more members here were interested after listening to the astounding power of M-Scaler, maybe we might get our second or even third Blu Mk.2 as long as Chord could keep us with the demand.

 

Obviously it should be much easier if future standalone M-Scaler were having USB output but it's hard to tell how many years we've gotta wait.

I think it would be easier if first we get these boards to someone on CA who already has a Blu2 and test if the recording from dual BNC outputs is possible.

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9 minutes ago, ray-dude said:

Blu2 owner here, with symmetric gigabit fiber to the home and no data caps ;)  Happy to help however makes sense

 

Me and my buds have been day dreaming similar schemes: they're addicted to mScaler, but at their budget ceiling with their Hugo2's.  It would be worth the disk storage and bandwidth to save my wine cellar ;)

 

That's fantastic. Do you think that Rob Watts would answer any questions on Head-Fi via PMs or forum posts?

 

At some point we should be able to post some "before" (*.FLAC) and "after" (*.WAV) files for comparisons. We should be allowed to use these copyright free files according to Public Domain Mark 1.0

 

https://archive.org/details/MusopenCollectionAsFlac

 

https://creativecommons.org/publicdomain/mark/1.0/

Quote

This work has been identified as being free of known restrictions under copyright law, including all related and neighboring rights.

 

You can copy, modify, distribute and perform the work, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission.

 

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Rob is elbow deep with his own efforts with his analog to digital converter (Davina) using the same mScaler, and 40 element pulse array (32bit + 8bit headroom) to get to same, but that will be a while until that is commercially available.  Some high quality recordings mScale'ed to 768kHz (and even 384kHz to be playable by more people) would be quite revealing to folks I think.  The Blu2 really is a revelation.

ATT Fiber -> EdgeRouter X SFP -> Taiko Audio Extreme -> Vinnie Rossi L2i-SE w/ Level 2 DAC -> Voxativ 9.87 speakers w/ 4D drivers

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Awesome.

 

Since each and every 384kHz coaxial input of Mojo / Hugo 2 / Quetest / DAVE should accept the coaxial outputs of any devices, that means even each coaxial output from Blu Mk. 2 is supposed to be non-proprietary.

 

Now the only question is whether a board from ComTrue is able combine two separate 384kHz streams into one or otherwise. If ComTrue weren't able to handle that, we'll have to figure out what BNC adapters are best for combining dual BNC outputs into a single connection.

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Well this thread has dived all over the place since I last posted regarding my new set up of Mutec REF10 / MC3+USB / sMS-200Ultra / tX-USBultra!

 

Anyway, time for an update.  Regular readers with very good memory may recall that last weekend I set up the Mutec REF10 with the MC3+USB and my existing microRendu, and I could not have been happier with the result.  The improvement from the REF10 was sensational, everything I had hoped for and more.  Better dynamics, more definition everywhere, the most realistic bass I have ever experienced, everything good.  That was last Saturday.

 

On the Sunday, I connected up the SOtM 'bundle' of sMS-200Ultra + tX- USBultra + sPS-500.  Immediate impressions were a little mixed, there was some definite magic there, but somehow I was not enjoying the system as much as I should be.

 

So that was last week.  Following this I had a very busy week, with most of my time spent miles away from my system, no time for listening.  The SOtM kit has been kept powered up 24/7, and I have spent some time feeding it from Roon Radio.  The hours are going on the kit.  

 

Unfortunately, this weekend I was also very busy with many things, but I did get time to for a couple of listening sessions.  To be honest, my initial impression from last weekend is little changed.  That said, I do have a bit more insight into what might be troubling me with the addition of the SOtM kit.  Almost everything seems to be good, but to me the treble seems to be a little overemphasised, and has a slightly unpleasant 'glassy' characteristic to it.  You could say a 'digital edge' is there that I do not think was apparent with the humble microRendu.  Although one caveat here, this is a characteristic that seems far more apparent with some pieces of music.   I am posting this now as an update, and to see if anyone perhaps has any insight into this aspect of the SOtM kit.

 

One thing does occur to me here, I note in the Steve Plaskin review of the Sonore Signature Rendu versus the SOtM ultra bundle he does refer to the microRendu's 'somewhat dark sound'. 

 

https://www.audiostream.com/content/audiophile-conundrum-sonore-vs-sotm

 

So maybe this is what I am experiencing?  The change from this darker sound.  Although maybe whatever this dark sound might be, perhaps it is something I happen to like or happens to suit my system, maybe it's just what I am used to, and it's my brain that needs more burn in time.

 

Meanwhile, I have a plan for this coming weekend.  I will try feeding the MC3+USB with three combinations, the sMS-200Ultra with tX-USBultra, the microRendu on it's own, and the micrRendu with the tX-USBultra.  Depending on how this works out, I could try the sMS-200Ultra without the tX-USBultra.  This should give me some insight into what each component is bringing, or is taking away, from the end result.  Maybe this will clarify matters?  We time will tell.

Windows 11 PC, Roon, HQPlayer, Focus Fidelity convolutions, iFi Zen Stream, Paul Hynes SR4, Mutec REF10, Mutec MC3+USB, Devialet 1000Pro, KEF Blade.  Plus Pro-Ject Signature 12 TT for playing my 'legacy' vinyl collection. Desktop system; RME ADI-2 DAC fs, Meze Empyrean headphones.

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Quote

 I will try feeding the MC3+USB with three combinations, the sMS-200Ultra with tX-USBultra, the microRendu on it's own, and the micrRendu with the tX-USBultra.

 

Could you also try with Mutec ref 10 and without, im curious, how seriously it improves SQ.

dCS Network Bridge | Audio Note DAC2 Signature | Audio Note M5 Preamp | Audio Note Empress Silver Monoblocks | Audio Note AN-E/Spe HE Speakers

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