A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming

[tapatrick]

16 hours ago, austinpop said:

 

Often. But not always!

 

This is my point. There are no self-evident truths in computer audio. Yet. 

 

The less dogmatic you allow yourself to be, the more nimbly you can adapt and adopt new advances in the field.

Wise words Rajiv and holds true for life also ?

[gstew]

23 hours ago, austinpop said:

 

Often. But not always!

 

This is my point. There are no self-evident truths in computer audio. Yet. 

 

The less dogmatic you allow yourself to be, the more nimbly you can adapt and adopt new advances in the field.

Rajiv hit the nail on the head!!!!

 

Audio in general, but computer audio  even more than analog, are complex systems. AND they don't end with the gear, but also extend to you. Your physical ears and hearing mechanisms, your neurological hearing processing, your conscious and unconscious preferences in sound parameters ALL play a part in what sounds good to you (the 'measurements are all' people always seem to forget this last part!).

 

Have the best processing and signal transmission setup, but the SW is not optimized, you lose.

 

Have the best SW, but ignore the HW, you lose.

 

Have the best SW & HW, but mediocre power supplies, you lose.

 

Put out the best USB signal, but your DAC has a mediocre USB input and a stellar S/PDIF input, you lose.

 

I can go on in this vein ALL NIGHT!

 

There is no best way in the audio HW world. EVERYTHING has to be judged in context. AND when you factor in YOU being a CRUCIAL part of the system (you can't enjoy it if you aren't listening!), then many of the 'best way's won't be the best for you.

 

My nightly 2 cents!

 

Greg in Mississippi

[Confused]

I have to say that despite a few a few issues, yesterday was a good day.  Adding the REF10 to the MC3+USB was all I had hoped for and more, I could not be more pleased with the improvement this has yielded.  Anyway, after listening to the microRendu REF10 / MC3+USB yesterday, I did get the sMS-200Ultra, tXUSBultra and sPS-500 set up and working but did not have any time for any serious listening.  I left everything powered up overnight, and this morning everything was working exactly as it should, playing background music for a couple of hours or so.  

 

I have sat down for a more focused listen, running through the same playlist I used with the microRendu yesterday.  A little inconclusive to be honest, yes everything sounds excellent, but whereas yesterday I was a little blown away by the improvement with just adding the REF10 to the MC3+USB, today I am not entirely convinced by the improvement of the SOtM kit versus the humble microRendu.  

 

To be honest, I am probably overdoing the changes, listening and thinking!  The change with the REF10 yesterday was revelationary, and I still had the happy thought that the improvement from the SOtM kit was still to come, so perhaps the psychology of all this is having an effect.  Don't get me wrong, the rig sounds great with the SOtM kit in charge, I am just not sure of the hike over the mR in this set-up.  I need some time to get used to this too, some stuff I head today was truly exceptional, but I suspect the SOtM kit may be a touch brighter than the mR, which is perhaps messing with my perception a little.  Time now to let the kit settle in a bit, and let my brain settle in too.  I can always do a mR versus SOtM bundle head to head another day.

[d_elm]

35 minutes ago, Confused said:

I have to say that despite a few a few issues, yesterday was a good day.  Adding the REF10 to the MC3+USB was all I had hoped for and more, I could not be more pleased with the improvement this has yielded.  Anyway, after listening to the microRendu REF10 / MC3+USB yesterday, I did get the sMS-200Ultra, tXUSBultra and sPS-500 set up and working but did not have any time for any serious listening.  I left everything powered up overnight, and this morning everything was working exactly as it should, playing background music for a couple of hours or so.  

 

I have sat down for a more focused listen, running through the same playlist I used with the microRendu yesterday.  A little inconclusive to be honest, yes everything sounds excellent, but whereas yesterday I was a little blown away by the improvement with just adding the REF10 to the MC3+USB, today I am not entirely convinced by the improvement of the SOtM kit versus the humble microRendu.  

 

To be honest, I am probably overdoing the changes, listening and thinking!  The change with the REF10 yesterday was revelationary, and I still had the happy thought that the improvement from the SOtM kit was still to come, so perhaps the psychology of all this is having an effect.  Don't get me wrong, the rig sounds great with the SOtM kit in charge, I am just not sure of the hike over the mR in this set-up.  I need some time to get used to this too, some stuff I head today was truly exceptional, but I suspect the SOtM kit may be a touch brighter than the mR, which is perhaps messing with my perception a little.  Time now to let the kit settle in a bit, and let my brain settle in too.  I can always do a mR versus SOtM bundle head to head another day.

I found the SOtM kit out of the box  sounded different from the microRendu but needed three days of burn-in before the sound was pleasing and then it kept improving.

[Confused]

1 hour ago, d_elm said:

I found the SOtM kit out of the box  sounded different from the microRendu but needed three days of burn-in before the sound was pleasing and then it kept improving.

1

At the time I sat down for a serious listen, I think the SOtM kit had been powered up for about 17 hours, and had been playing music for about 2 hours.  So yes, the kit is very new.  I have a bit of a personal issue with 'burn in' time, I do not believe it exists, but time and again I experience it!  I think my earlier post may have come across as being a little negative towards the SOtM kit, but there were some moments of real magic lurking in the subtleties of the music, it will be interesting to see how all this works out in the end. 

 

Thinking back, it is almost like everything is better with the SOtM kit, but somehow nicer to listen to with the mR, so maybe it just needs a few more hours, time will tell.

[Johnseye]

2 hours ago, Confused said:

I have to say that despite a few a few issues, yesterday was a good day.  Adding the REF10 to the MC3+USB was all I had hoped for and more, I could not be more pleased with the improvement this has yielded.  Anyway, after listening to the microRendu REF10 / MC3+USB yesterday, I did get the sMS-200Ultra, tXUSBultra and sPS-500 set up and working but did not have any time for any serious listening.  I left everything powered up overnight, and this morning everything was working exactly as it should, playing background music for a couple of hours or so.  

 

I have sat down for a more focused listen, running through the same playlist I used with the microRendu yesterday.  A little inconclusive to be honest, yes everything sounds excellent, but whereas yesterday I was a little blown away by the improvement with just adding the REF10 to the MC3+USB, today I am not entirely convinced by the improvement of the SOtM kit versus the humble microRendu.  

 

To be honest, I am probably overdoing the changes, listening and thinking!  The change with the REF10 yesterday was revelationary, and I still had the happy thought that the improvement from the SOtM kit was still to come, so perhaps the psychology of all this is having an effect.  Don't get me wrong, the rig sounds great with the SOtM kit in charge, I am just not sure of the hike over the mR in this set-up.  I need some time to get used to this too, some stuff I head today was truly exceptional, but I suspect the SOtM kit may be a touch brighter than the mR, which is perhaps messing with my perception a little.  Time now to let the kit settle in a bit, and let my brain settle in too.  I can always do a mR versus SOtM bundle head to head another day.

 

I might have missed it, but what are your testing scenarios?  Are you only using the REF10 with the MC3+USB or are you using it with both the mR and sMS?  Are you using the REF10 as a master clock for the sMS and txUSB?

[Confused]

Just now, Johnseye said:

 

I might have missed it, but what are your testing scenarios?  Are you only using the REF10 with the MC3+USB or are you using it with both the mR and sMS?  Are you using the REF10 as a master clock for the sMS and txUSB?

The REF10 is feeding the MC3+USB, sMS-200ultra and tX-USBultra.  I am not using the REF10 with the mR, this is not possible as far as I am aware.  OK, it may be possible, but it would need some very clever modifications.

[Johnseye]

1 minute ago, Confused said:

The REF10 is feeding the MC3+USB, sMS-200ultra and tX-USBultra.  I am not using the REF10 with the mR, this is not possible as far as I am aware.  OK, it may be possible, but it would need some very clever modifications.

 

I'm sure you'll be trying all possible scenarios, with and without the Mutec gear.  Might want to try the mR with the tX-USBultra.  I'd play around with everything.  You might find a combo that you like but hadn't thought of.

 

Also, it doesn't sound like you're using the REF10 as a master clock for the sMS and tX by connecting it to those device's sCLK. Is that accurate, or are you doing that?

[Confused]

5 minutes ago, Johnseye said:

 

I'm sure you'll be trying all possible scenarios, with and without the Mutec gear.  Might want to try the mR with the tX-USBultra.  I'd play around with everything.  You might find a combo that you like but hadn't thought of.

 

Also, it doesn't sound like you're using the REF10 as a master clock for the sMS and tX by connecting it to those device's sCLK. Is that accurate, or are you doing that?

Actually, running the mR through the tX-USBultra is an interesting idea!  Thanks for that.

 

The SOtM kit had the optional clock connectors for an external reference clock, see the pictures I posted showing the clock connections on page 268 of this thread.

[austinpop]

Odd as it may sound, I’d also ask you to try removing the MC-3+ USB from the chain, and run USB from the tX-USBultra to your DAC.

 

Worst case, you’ll report back that doing so reduced SQ. But I know at least one person who did this with the MC-3+ and was surprised it actually improved his chain. Do you have the MC-3+ USB modded for an LPS?

[seeteeyou]

Like @romaz and others mentioned before, Mutec REF 10 will only perform as good as the clock cables we're using. So far those 12G-SDI 4K UHD ones from Belden and Canare seemed to be the best bet according to @Beolab as well as @mourip etc.

 

https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/31857-mutec-ref-10-masterclock/?page=24&tab=comments#comment-773147

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-electronics-blu-mk-2-the-official-thread.831343/page-165#post-14007764

 

In other words, it doesn't hurt to try them out and see if they're performing much better when compared to what we could get from Pasternack RG216.

[oilpaint]

Is it fair to say that some folks have been powering the SOtM modded switch and tx-usb (both with the master clock cable) with a Up Tone LPS-1? I have a couple of the new LPS-1.2 and am having trouble powering the tx-usb. I have asked for some clarification of the power requirements of the tx-usb - the literature says the power input is 2 amps max. The LPS-1.2 has a max power of 1.1 amps. Has anyone run into this as a problem?

[d_elm]

8 minutes ago, oilpaint said:

Is it fair to say that some folks have been powering the SOtM modded switch and tx-usb (both with the master clock cable) with a Up Tone LPS-1? I have a couple of the new LPS-1.2 and am having trouble powering the tx-usb. I have asked for some clarification of the power requirements of the tx-usb - the literature says the power input is 2 amps max. The LPS-1.2 has a max power of 1.1 amps. Has anyone run into this as a problem?

Can you connect a meter and determine the DC current draw at startup and running with and without the DAC connected ?  Then you will know for sure.

[Bruce Orr]

I have had no problems using my LPS-1.2 to power the tx-USBultra. Check to make sure the 1.2 settings align with whatever your ultra’s power need is. They come in 3 different power configurations. Mine, for example is 6 1/2- 8 1/2 or something very close to that so my LSP is set at 7. 

 

It will identify the power needed on the SoTM box it was packaged in. 

[mozes]

44 minutes ago, oilpaint said:

Is it fair to say that some folks have been powering the SOtM modded switch and tx-usb (both with the master clock cable) with a Up Tone LPS-1? I have a couple of the new LPS-1.2 and am having trouble powering the tx-usb. I have asked for some clarification of the power requirements of the tx-usb - the literature says the power input is 2 amps max. The LPS-1.2 has a max power of 1.1 amps. Has anyone run into this as a problem?

I use LPS-1.2 to power a tX-USBultra at 9v without issues. It does run hot though.

your issue maybe the voltage. Just make sure that you have the right voltage set on the LPS-1.2 that’s match the input of your tX.

[oilpaint]

Thanks for the suggestions. I have the 9volt and I don’t have a meter to test it - although I guess I could get one. I’ll try a few more things in the coming days. I use ROON/HQP and it wouldn’t recognize the chain unless I take out the tx-usb. For the moment I’m just listening with the stock cord. At one point it worked with the voltage set at 12 volts but then cut out.

[Confused]

3 hours ago, seeteeyou said:

Like @romaz and others mentioned before, Mutec REF 10 will only perform as good as the clock cables we're using. So far those 12G-SDI 4K UHD ones from Belden and Canare seemed to be the best bet according to @Beolab as well as @mourip etc.

 

https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/31857-mutec-ref-10-masterclock/?page=24&tab=comments#comment-773147

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-electronics-blu-mk-2-the-official-thread.831343/page-165#post-14007764

 

In other words, it doesn't hurt to try them out and see if they're performing much better when compared to what we could get from Pasternack RG216.

Yes, I have been following the posts regarding 12G SDI 4K cables.  In time, I am sure I will try them.  One thing I would say, the sound quality hike I obtained adding the REF10 to just the MC3+USB was stunning, and this was with the RG216 cable.  This is the specification recommended by Mutec, and for sure they work.  It could well be possible to get better performance from other cables, but I don’t think the RG216 cables are holding too much back.

[austinpop]

1 hour ago, oilpaint said:

Thanks for the suggestions. I have the 9volt and I don’t have a meter to test it - although I guess I could get one. I’ll try a few more things in the coming days. I use ROON/HQP and it wouldn’t recognize the chain unless I take out the tx-usb. For the moment I’m just listening with the stock cord. At one point it worked with the voltage set at 12 volts but then cut out.

 

Whether the tX-USBultra will work with an LPS-1.2 depends on what DAC is attached to it. Bus powered DACs can draw up to 500 mA, and still be within the USB spec. Here is what is working for me as I write this:

• tX-USBultra, configured for 6.5-8.5V
• Codex DAC (requires bus power) attached to tX
• LPS-1.2 set to 7V

Like @mozes, my LPS-1.2 runs very hot too. But the light stays green.

 

Possible things that could explain your problem:

1. mismatched voltage setting on tX-USBultra and LPS-1.2 - looks like you already double checked this
2. make sure you attach one and only one DAC to the tX-USBultra. Just because there are 2 USB outputs does not mean you can or should use them simultaneously
3. maybe your DAC is a particularly current-hungry, bus-powered DAC.

I know when I have used my tX-USBultra with self-powered DACs - like the Ayre QX-5 - the LPS-1 powering the tX-USBultra only ran warm, not hot.

[Confused]

4 hours ago, austinpop said:

Odd as it may sound, I’d also ask you to try removing the MC-3+ USB from the chain, and run USB from the tX-USBultra to your DAC.

 

Worst case, you’ll report back that doing so reduced SQ. But I know at least one person who did this with the MC-3+ and was surprised it actually improved his chain. Do you have the MC-3+ USB modded for an LPS?

I like odd!  This one is easy enough to try and cost free, so why not?

 

Actually, I am feeling very positive after my weekends adventures.  Just adding the REF10 to the MC3+USB elevated things to what felt like almost end game levels.

 

OK, I have some niggling thoughts about the SOtM kit now, but the kit is brand new, things could well be very different in a weeks time.  Plus, I really enjoyed the system with just the mR feeding the MC3+USB, something I already own.  So I can try the mR with the tX, see how that goes.  Plus, I as I said before, I can hear some real magic with the SOtM kit, I’m sure it’s adding a lot, albeit it seams to be taking something away.  In the short term, I have a busy week coming up, to be followed by a very busy weekend.  There will be time for listening, but the next time I get a chance for any further experimentation everything will have been powered up for over two weeks.

 

This will be a bit of a slow burning soap opea I think, but based on Saturday’s listening session I’m sure of a happy ending!

[Confused]

5 hours ago, austinpop said:

Do you have the MC-3+ USB modded for an LPS?

No, mine is 100% standard.

[oilpaint]

Thanks @austinpop At this point I am using one LPS-1.2 to power the modded switch (7 volts) at the moment. I am waiting for a couple more LPs-1.2 to arrive - when they do I will try a few more configurations. All of this is feeding a mutec mc3+usb then to a Devialet 1000.

 

In the mean time, I may try moving the LPS-1.2 to power my 200ultra and take the sotm 500 power supply (currently powering the 200ultra) and try it on the tx-usbultra..

 

[lateboomer]

I would like to ask for advice. I am going to setup Supermicro X10SBA-L-B music server and playing from local Samsung SSD EVO 850 500GB drive. The mboard, usb card, CPU and ssd are running external LPS. The usb is output via an old SoTM tx-UsbExp card which I owned from the CAPS 2.0 server kit.

 

The question is should I run the very small Daphile OS which occupies only 16 GB from a USB 3.0 flash drive or should I create small 16 GB sub partition from local drive EVO 850 ssd and run the OS from there? Which one is more ideal and create less noise at the system?

[zackthedog]

2 hours ago, lateboomer said:

I would like to ask for advice. I am going to setup Supermicro X10SBA-L-B music server and playing from local Samsung SSD EVO 850 500GB drive. The mboard, usb card, CPU and ssd are running external LPS. The usb is output via an old SoTM tx-UsbExp card which I owned from the CAPS 2.0 server kit.

 

The question is should I run the very small Daphile OS which occupies only 16 GB from a USB 3.0 flash drive or should I create small 16 GB sub partition from local drive EVO 850 ssd and run the OS from there? Which one is more ideal and create less noise at the system?

 

I think Daphile sounds better running off the hard drive, but unless I'm mistaken it wants to format the entire target disk.  You can try making an ext4 partition and see if it will recognize it for installation.  I guess my question would be, why create a separate partition?  Why not let it use the whole disk?  Typically, when you boot Daphile it gives you the option to clear the target drive, then after the graphical boot you can install it under the system tab.

[lateboomer]

55 minutes ago, zackthedog said:

 

I think Daphile sounds better running off the hard drive, but unless I'm mistaken it wants to format the entire target disk.  You can try making an ext4 partition and see if it will recognize it for installation.  I guess my question would be, why create a separate partition?  Why not let it use the whole disk?  Typically, when you boot Daphile it gives you the option to clear the target drive, then after the graphical boot you can install it under the system tab.

Thank you for the help. I could format and let Daphile use the whole 500GB. I just not sure which one is the most optimized method whether music storage should be in separate partition from working OS.

[zackthedog]

21 minutes ago, lateboomer said:

Thank you for the help. I could format and let Daphile use the whole 500GB. I just not sure which one is the most optimized method whether music storage should be in separate partition from working OS.

 

I don't think putting the music on a separate partition will make much difference.  Putting it on a separate hard drive altogether might be preferable.  But I think it's easier to let Daphile use the whole disc and create it's own media folder for easy access.