A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming

[Dev]

23 minutes ago, austinpop said:

 

Hi Jean-Michel,

 

No doubt, one can achieve similar SQ gains going down the DIY path. Finding PSUs of the caliber of the SE may be the hardest to achieve. It will be interesting to see if people are able to source these from Sean or other vendors, without the wait times for the SR-7.

 

The power supply is critical but the optimized s/w that Innuous created is critical as well which this is very evident from your excellent comparison (and thanks for the detail thoughts which I and many other have been waiting for sometime). Is there anybody willing to do a group buy from Sean on a multi-rail psu  ?

[BigAlMc]

Hey Rajiv, 

 

Awesome review sir! Great reviewing and writing. Even tho I suspect you just cost me the price of a TX-USBultra as by the sounds of things I'm gonna need to hear that combo myself! 

 

I also agree with your description of what the SE brings to the table in terms of dynamism, calmness etc. You articulated what I was hearing better than I've done to date. 

 

6 hours ago, austinpop said:

Finding 3: The Zenith SE internal player outperforms Roon

 

This is one of those ironic findings. On the one hand, kudos to the Innuos team for optimizing their internal SqueezeServer player. But as a committed Roon user, this finding actually annoyed me.

 

Yeah same here. Eric / @limniscate advised me to try the squeezebox player and much to my annoyance it does sound better than Roon. I suspect there is a second element to this other than the SE playing from cache on LMS. I think Roons SQ is perhaps also a factor. Read lots of posts about Tidal sounding way better direct than Tidal via Roon. And have read the Roon CEO fob this off as apples to Oranges because Roon is "heavy"! 

 

Anyway very annoying and I personally find the LMS app Innuos recommend practically unusable. Will only play one track at a time and then stops! Seriously WTF!? 

 

However the flipside is that Roon has never sounded better in my system. Concur with your hope that Innuos work with Roon on allowing the memory playback or optimisation of the Roon playback. 

 

6 hours ago, austinpop said:

For the more seasoned digital audiophile caught between a streaming rock and a D/A converting hard place, know this: starting over with ten grand to spend, I’d take this Innuos and drop whatever cash I had left on a lesser DAC instead of putting the larger percentage of my dollars into a better D/A converter only to feed it ones and zeroes by a standard PC or Mac.

 

I know this is Darko's words and not yours but again I concur. I've seen a few posters ridicule this statement. But as anyone who has enjoyed the 'journey' that this thread had entailed knows,  we've learned more and more that everything matters. Personally the benefits of having a great source that entails not needing a plethora of fixes and decrapifiers downstream is worth it. It's also worth reiterating that whilst the SE is fantastic, the MKII at less than half the price is very, very good and has a similar sound profile. 

 

I've been comparing my MKII and SE and will post some thoughts soon. Probably on the SE thread. 

 

But meantime did you test the combo of SE > TX-USBultra > DAC without your Cybershaft? And if so can you please comment on whether the TX-USBultra without an external clock improves the USB SQ much? 

 

Many Thanks and kudos on the great review! 

 

Cheers, 

Alan 

 

 

[austinpop]

21 minutes ago, One and a half said:

Now here is what makes the blood boil, from the Innuous site:

Configuring the DAC output, a total blank section. Poor. Bad. Slack.  I was considering a closer look at Innuous but this, just leaves me cold. I'd throw tomatoes at this mob, totally unprofessional. An oversight, or we're waiting for details to finish, sorry doesn't cut it. I'm going in hard and critical on this, because for the prices, the support needs to be better. 

 

 

That's a bit harsh, since that version (1.3.2) is not yet released, and that setting is new to that release.

 

Their support is actually excellent, and quite high-touch. Remember, their target customer is not us propeller-heads, but the computer-illiterate crowd.

[sandyk]

1 minute ago, Dev said:

Is there anybody willing to do a group buy from Sean on a multi-rail psu  ?

 

 You are likely to find, that just like Paul Hynes, Sean is not geared up to do group buys.

Building a PSU like in the photo, would take quite a while for a small company to make just one, unless they are contracted out perhaps ?

[Dev]

4 minutes ago, sandyk said:

 

 You are likely to find, that just like Paul Hynes, Sean is not geared up to do group buys.

Building a PSU like in the photo, would take quite a while for a small company to make just one, unless they are contracted out perhaps ?

 

I don't know Sean's operation, so perhaps you are true but its definitely worth asking, if there is enough interest in this thread ?

[beerandmusic]

29 minutes ago, austinpop said:

 

Here's something. Someone I know got their Oppo 205 modded with upgrade PSU and OCXO by this guy: http://www.oppomod.com/ He can't stop raving about how good it's sounding - and this is someone who has the trifecta. Very intriguing, but I should caveat, I have no personal knowledge of this outfit or the resulting SQ.
 

 

Yes, I have heard about rave reviews on the oppo mods and have referenced them a few times...He must have something new on his site though, i don't recall seeing anything about comparison to trifecta before....definetely worth a closer look.  I may have bought one by now if he sold them configured, but you have to buy, and then send them to him for mods, and then wait.  Hoping oppo will make a reference model or v2 themselves that fills some of the gaps that the DIY'ers do.

 

Inre the comparison of doing DLNA over cheap bluray, my point was merely that I agree with the premise about the "non-importance" of dacs compared to other things, like a noisy pc usb.  I know it was Darko's quote, but you quoted him, so I assumed you agreed to some extent.

 

Inre Roon, i just like to throw in jabs anytime i can about a subscription based player software program (grin).  If/when they ever change it to conventional distribution, I may consider it...but the main reason i don't like ROON is that it doesn't allow you to browse or play by file structure.  Roon is overhyped imho, especially for subscription based software...and i will never pay $500 when i know many people have got discounts on lifetime.  I am glad there are many options out there that sound better...

 

[seeteeyou]

6 hours ago, austinpop said:

Finding 6: The SR-4 has pulled ahead of the LPS-1 after more burn-in

 

I know I mentioned a couple weeks ago that I found these PSUs essentially head-to-head. Since then, the SR-4 has continued to burn in, and I am now able to compare on a chain of overall higher SQ with the SE. Whatever the reasons, I now find that switching back and forth powering the tX-USBultra, the SR-4 is the more refined PSU. Of course, this finding will be revisited when my LPS-1.2 comes in, and we shall see if the tables turn again with the 1.2.

 

For the sake of a level playing field, maybe LPS-1.2 could also benefit from StarQuad cables with solid silver? These guys are located in California and they're asking 16 bucks for a foot

 

https://silveraudio.com/accessories.htm

 

Contact

 

https://silveraudio.com/contact.htm

http://hifi-products.com/Silver-Audio-manufacturer-430.html

[seeteeyou]

38 minutes ago, beerandmusic said:

Yes, I have heard about rave reviews on the oppo mods and have referenced them a few times...He must have something new on his site though, i don't recall seeing anything about comparison to trifecta before....definetely worth a closer look.

 

Maybe find someone to mod a stock Oppo with sCLK-EX, get an upgrade from Sean Jacobs, and finally add either sCLK-OCX10 Reference (with a separate PSU from Sean Jacobs) or Mutec REF 10.

 

The relative simplicity of Oppo 205's system board could be advantage when compared to all x86-based motherboards out there. However, Oppo could only be connected to DACs via its coaxial and optical outputs while both of them are capped at 192kHz.

 

The only workaround would be an I2S mod BUT that might only be good for Oppo 203 unless they decide to make something else for Oppo 205

 

http://pcaudio.tistory.com/546

http://www.audiopraise.com/forum/read.php?13,838

http://www.psaudio.com/forum/need-help-ask-the-psa-expert/transforming-vanityhd-card-for-oppo-203-into-usable-i2s/

[One and a half]

1 hour ago, austinpop said:

 

 

That's a bit harsh, since that version (1.3.2) is not yet released, and that setting is new to that release.

 

Their support is actually excellent, and quite high-touch. Remember, their target customer is not us propeller-heads, but the computer-illiterate crowd.

It's meant to be harsh, they fail, at least deliver how to connect now.  I hope Innuous reads my comment, if not I can fire something off to them.

[LTG2010]

8 hours ago, seeteeyou said:

Since Sean Jacobs does accept custom HiFi work

 

http://www.custom-hifi-cables.co.uk/custom-equipment-upgrade-service

 

And their TToL PSU costs £2200

 

http://www.custom-hifi-cables.co.uk/home/power-supplies/chc-555ps

 

Did Roy or others ask him about building something even better for the Supermicro X10SBA-L motherboard that's chosen for SE?

I've ordered a power supply from Sean. I found him very knowledegable and easy to deal with. He was in Portugal working with Innuos and still replied to emails when he had a spare moment - sometimes late at night. My motherboard Is a Jetway NF596  but I also have a X10SBA to compare, so the Supply will not be for any specific motherboard.

I needed 12V for motherboard, 2 x 5V for 2 SSD/HDD and 9V for the SOTM bits: txUSB-exp, sCLK-ex & txUSBHUB. In discussion Sean recommended 3 seperate rails for the SOTM boards (I had sort of guessed he would ) SOTM liked the idea but MAY also said, the txUSB-exp provides refined 9V supply to the sCLK, which is further refined and finally ends up at the HUB output- So it will be interesting to test this out. I think the 3 seperate rails will be amazing but  2 'spare' rails are always handy for us 'tweakers'.

Due to the large number of outputs and bearing in mind the cost factor, Sean suggested we use 2 of his standard off the shelf toroids one for the motherboard and one for the rest. He felt they were 'up to the task' I quite liked this idea due to the fact we would 'isolate' noisy motherboard from the other components.

He also suggested 2 custom wound transformers that would take 2 weeks to produce - which would be 75% of the way between the standard and premium version as used in the Zenith SE. The premium Transformers take 6 weeks to produce due to the backlog the manufacturer has in orders.

Since the cost between one large or two smaller premium transformers was not that far apart we settled on 2  'premium' toroids  - six weeks delivery. Sean will get the other bits- case, circuits, etc. ready as far as possible in the meantime. He will be using the premium version of his  custom CHC circuits with mundorf CAPS.

So I'm very much looking forward to getting my new power supply in a couple of months and will use my other bits in the meantime. Looking forward to  hearing the benefit of the cutom CHC when it 'meeets' the SOTM sclk -ex server.The total cost is in the region of ( just over) £2000. Its not finalised yet.

Sean did not want all the money up front, he asked for a deposit to order the transformers and get started, that was very reassuring. In the meantime we've been in touch to discuss the connection details, type of Umbilical etc. To lower impedance we setteld on a single connector at the power supply end and a gland at server end where the cable can pass directlly through and connect to all the components, with the various connectors, SATA, molex, jack plugs, etc.

Thanks @austinpop for the detailed review.

 

 

[tapatrick]

8 hours ago, austinpop said:

I sure hope Innuos's (or SOtM's or Antipodes') future systems give us the best of both worlds.

Thank you Rajiv! Awesome post, much appreciated.

[seeteeyou]

6 minutes ago, LTG2010 said:

Since the cost between one or two premium transformers was not that far apart we settled on 2 premium toroids - six weeks delivery. Sean will get the other bits case etc ready as far as possible in the meantime. He will be using his custom CHC circuits with mundorf CAPS.

 

That sounds intriguing and many thanks for the details about your positive experiences so far. It's quite a relief to know that could be delivered within 2 months and we're gonna see yet another benchmark in the near future.

 

Is he happy to reveal the specific type(s) of Mundorf caps for his premium transformers or could that be more like a "secret" of some sort? I'm just wondering if this top capacitor model were suitable for a power supply

 

http://www.mundorf.com/en/?category=hifi&menu=caps_audio&content=mcap_supreme_evo_silvergold_oil

[str-1]

Great review @austinpop

 

With both you and @romaz backing the SE, tx-USBultra and master clock approach, that pretty much sells it to me.  I’m already enjoying the SE connected to the Chord DAVE via an LPS-1-powered ISO Regen, and have just ordered an SR4.  I’ll probably put an order in for the Chord Blu 2 next week and was intending to get a tx-USBultra, which I will now order with a master clock input.  I’ll wait until I’ve got all that, and it is properly run in, before trying out a masterclock.  Cheers

[Summit]

Great review @austinpop, very informative!

 

I don’t remember if you use to upsample in ROON or not. IIRC you have in the past. I don’t and have the DSP off. Was your listening and review done with or without upsampling and DSP in ROON?

[LTG2010]

2 hours ago, seeteeyou said:

Is he happy to reveal the specific type(s) of Mundorf caps for his premium transformers or could that be more like a "secret" of some sort? I'm just wondering if this top capacitor model were suitable for a power supply

 

I will ask, but pop him an email with your questions he would be the best to contact on this. From photo's they look like the electrolytic m-lytic range. Also be careful in choice, oil caps can lead to a very dampened sound ideal for valve circuits (not suggesting those on your link will) but best to get more info from Mundorf on their suitability or maybe try a couple in your circuit first to see how they influence the sound.

[str-1]

As I prepare to order a tx-USBultra with master clock input it occurs to me that I have no idea what version is better to order - 50ohm or 75ohm.  It will be some time before I am in a position to decide on what master clock to get here in the UK.  I would be grateful for any advice those who have already gone down tne master clock road can offer.  Thanks.

[rickca]

5 hours ago, lmitche said:

It is interesting to see that the SE uses two separate power sources, one for the big atx connector (only 20 pins powered by the pico) and the other for the CPU.

 

I've never seen that split before.

Deleted

[rickca]

5 hours ago, lmitche said:

It is interesting to see that the SE uses two separate power sources, one for the big atx connector (only 20 pins powered by the pico) and the other for the CPU.

 

I've never seen that split before.

Great observation.  Clearly, the power configuration must be significant.  The question is whether there is something special about the Supermicro motherboard.  Maybe other mini-ITX motherboards would respond just as well if powered similarly.

[rickca]

3 hours ago, LTG2010 said:

Looking forward to  hearing the benefit of the cutom CHC when it 'meeets' the SOTM sclk -ex server.

What an awesome experiment!  Really looking forward to hearing about your experience.  How are you currently powering your sCLK-EX server?

[lmitche]

12 minutes ago, rickca said:

Great observation.  Clearly, the power configuration must be significant.  The question is whether there is something special about the Supermicro motherboard.  Maybe other mini-ITX motherboards would respond just as well if powered similarly.

Over here, my ASRock Q1900-itx motherboard doesn't have a second power connector for the CPU.  That may be what is special about the Supermicro board. I don't use that board any more.

 

I just realized that I have all that is needed here to split the power to my i7-6700 z170 motherboard.  It would be easy to power the CPU (EPU/EPC) from the existing ATX SMPS.  From there I'd power the ATX connector from a HDplex DC to DC power supply with 19 volts from a sigma 11 based linear power supply.

 

I may give this a go later in the day to learn how it sounds.

[rickca]

10 minutes ago, lmitche said:

Over here, my ASRock Q1900-itx motherboard doesn't have a second power connector for the CPU.  That may be what is special about the Supermicro board.

However, there are other SoC motherboards that do have both a 24-pin and a 4-pin.

[lmitche]

Just now, rickca said:

However, there are other SoC motherboards that do have both a 24-pin and a 4-pin.

Yes, I am sure that is true. But no need to search for one as Innuos has done that for us already! At least at a low power level.

 

I'm just curious to learn if the idea scales to boards capable of Hqplayer upsampling.

[beerandmusic]

4 hours ago, seeteeyou said:

 

Maybe find someone to mod a stock Oppo with sCLK-EX, get an upgrade from Sean Jacobs, and finally add either sCLK-OCX10 Reference (with a separate PSU from Sean Jacobs) or Mutec REF 10.

 

The relative simplicity of Oppo 205's system board could be advantage when compared to all x86-based motherboards out there. However, Oppo could only be connected to DACs via its coaxial and optical outputs while both of them are capped at 192kHz.

 

The only workaround would be an I2S mod BUT that might only be good for Oppo 203 unless they decide to make something else for Oppo 205

 

http://pcaudio.tistory.com/546

http://www.audiopraise.com/forum/read.php?13,838

http://www.psaudio.com/forum/need-help-ask-the-psa-expert/transforming-vanityhd-card-for-oppo-203-into-usable-i2s/

 

Not sure you would need to use a different dac....the mods they are doing to the oppo dac section is reportedly excellent too, many comparing to equal or better the LKS and yggi. 

[seeteeyou]

Now I realize that someone was already powering motherboard and CPU separately with 2 ATX PSUs

 

https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/30376-a-novel-way-to-massively-improve-the-sq-of-computer-audio-streaming/?page=42&tab=comments#comment-640273

On 3/13/2017 at 7:09 PM, Theobetley said:

The tests you refer to are very interesting. Also that many of your colleagues use 2 high power atx supplies is also very interesting. Back in the day Cics (of Cplay/cmp fame) also recommended running music server on 2 atx's--one for motherboard and one for cpu. I have faithfully followed this prescription for years since. Nice to see that others also do this.

 

[lmitche]

26 minutes ago, seeteeyou said:

Now I realize that someone was already powering motherboard and CPU separately with 2 ATX PSUs

 

https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/30376-a-novel-way-to-massively-improve-the-sq-of-computer-audio-streaming/?page=42&tab=comments#comment-640273

 

Funny, I had forgotten that post, thanks!