A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming

[WuNgUn]

35 minutes ago, marce said:

Smoothing caps do not cater for the instantaneous current requirements required when digital IC's switch. We are talking high di/dt so the requirement is an initial high current requirement, that smoothing caps won't supply, its the local decoupling caps, power plane pairs capacitance and the on die capacitance.

Why do you think I refer to the Power Delivery System instead of just the main power supply...

So there is absolutely no benefit for battery DC supply for a D/A processor (no other devices or components) except for power isolation? 

How is a rectified and regulated AC/DC supply better for this task than battery power? 

[WuNgUn]

32 minutes ago, marce said:

I am talking about doing the job properly, from experience, we are discussing getting the most out of a device, power supply to said device is critical.

I am currently doing a board to drive the laser for a Vector laser magnetometer, so I am working with high speed 20 bit dac's, 10+GHz microwave, super dooper clocks, everything similar to audio only a few orders of magnitude more critical, what I do on this design is relevant to audio designs...

 

Anyway please explain why I am messing with the supply (there was no need to use such an invective)?

You don't think a high capacity battery (power sag not withstanding) can't keep up with requirements for a low power, low speed I/C? 

[marce]

No it can't you need regulation, preferably point of load regulation for best results and local decoupling. Even low power IC's have high switching current requirements, if your local voltage to the DAC (especially the reference voltages) can not cope with this you get errors in the DAC output, similar to the effects of jitter, extra noise, output not at the level it should be etc.

 

As I stated earlier, the main source of DC can be a battery, linear or switched PSU, all have differing problems to overcome, but most important is the WHOLE power delivery system, that means regulation, decoupling etc. etc.

[WuNgUn]

2 hours ago, marce said:

No it can't you need regulation, preferably point of load regulation for best results and local decoupling. Even low power IC's have high switching current requirements, if your local voltage to the DAC (especially the reference voltages) can not cope with this you get errors in the DAC output, similar to the effects of jitter, extra noise, output not at the level it should be etc.

 

As I stated earlier, the main source of DC can be a battery, linear or switched PSU, all have differing problems to overcome, but most important is the WHOLE power delivery system, that means regulation, decoupling etc. etc.

The decoupling or bypassing is already onboard, downstream of the power connection point on the PCB.

The high switching currents probably can't be dealt with by a LT series regulator by itself either...that is why regulated psu's make effective use of caps, to compensate for these fluctuations and noise. 

Am I wrong? 

[marce]

There should be the decoupling etc. on board and possibly local POL supplies. You need to determine a devices power requirements and tolerance to voltage fluctuations, digital needs a stable supply a DAC needs a very stable supply. When we do battery powered gear (like the board I'm doing now, as its going a long way so will be solar and battery powered) the battery is treated as RAW DC and is regulated first. Due to battery voltage decreasing as they get run down, the best bet is 1 cell more than you think then regulate, that way you'll get a clean supply at the required voltage... without having to hook up to the mains. There are low noise regulators and with a battery as main supply its not hard to build a low noise main supply.

[WuNgUn]

45 minutes ago, marce said:

There should be the decoupling etc. on board and possibly local POL supplies. You need to determine a devices power requirements and tolerance to voltage fluctuations, digital needs a stable supply a DAC needs a very stable supply. When we do battery powered gear (like the board I'm doing now, as its going a long way so will be solar and battery powered) the battery is treated as RAW DC and is regulated first. Due to battery voltage decreasing as they get run down, the best bet is 1 cell more than you think then regulate, that way you'll get a clean supply at the required voltage... without having to hook up to the mains. There are low noise regulators and with a battery as main supply its not hard to build a low noise main supply.

Both the 1.2 (core) and 3.3V rails have a - +5% tolerance. 

37mA nominal current on 1.2v core,

7mA nominal current on the digital supply and 25mA on the analog supply.

Input capacitance is 10pF 

 

[marce]

When I get back to work I'll look at what LDO's we are using on this and other low noise designs.

Having a night off thinking, drinking instead

[rickca]

Deleted

[rickca]

23 hours ago, Lebouwsky said:

Might this be an option:

https://www.moddiy.com/products/SATA-to-Gridseed-Power-Plug-(2.1mm-DC-Barrel-Plug).html

I just noticed that this piece is wired for 12V rather than 5V.

[sandyk]

On ‎24‎/‎01‎/‎2018 at 12:17 PM, Lebouwsky said:

Might this be an option:

https://www.moddiy.com/products/SATA-to-Gridseed-Power-Plug-(2.1mm-DC-Barrel-Plug).html

 

Making a DC socket to SATA Power cable.

 

 The main problem here appears to be that it may not be possible to obtain PC Card mounting plates that are blank, except perhaps in minimum quantities.
 If you have an old card that is no longer used, you may be able to repurpose it , by drilling a suitable sized hole in it's mounting plate  to take an insulated DC socket.
You could take something like the attached, but only connect 2 wires to the socket. The +5V wire (preferably Red) and the 0 volts wire ( preferably Black)

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/2-pcs-SATA-Power-Connector-Crimp-Plug-with-Terminal-Pins-for-SATA-Hard-Drive/121802423000?epid=888372534&hash=item1c5bfd7ad8:g:Xb4AAOSwwbdWNDJr

 

You would then drill a suitable sized hole in the mounting plate to take an insulated DC socket as in the attached.

http://www.altronics.com.au/p/p0629-2.5mm-female-plastic-chassis-mount-dc-power-socket/

After mounting the insulated socket to the plate , you would then need to solder the 2 wires to it.
For those without soldering skills, perhaps another member with similar needs would be willing to help out ?

 

[seeteeyou]

26 minutes ago, sandyk said:

 The main problem here appears to be that it may not be possible to obtain PC Card mounting plates that are blank, except perhaps in minimum quantities.

 

I don't get it, what's so difficult about that?

 

https://www.amazon.com/StarTech-Steel-Profile-Expansion-PLATEBLANK/dp/B00006B8BN

 

Here's even something with a hole that might or might not be the right size

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Low-Profile-Bracket-for-LG-Ericsson-PCI-1020-Wireless-802-11n-PCI-Adapter-/190735057275

[seeteeyou]

Maybe send them an e-mail

 

https://www.hdplex.com/contact/

 

Find out if they're willing to sell only this part instead of the entire PSU

 

https://www.hdplex.com/hdplex-fanless-400w-atx-linear-power-supply-with-modular-atx-output.html

 

 

Another one looked close enough but they're ONLY selling the bracket without the cable and the DC jack

 

http://www.mini-box.com/s.nl/it.A/id.438/.f

 

 

Anyways, it just doesn't hurt to ask them to make a cable for you to go from DC jack to female SATA power connector.

[sandyk]

1 hour ago, seeteeyou said:

 

I don't get it, what's so difficult about that?

 

https://www.amazon.com/StarTech-Steel-Profile-Expansion-PLATEBLANK/dp/B00006B8BN

 

Here's even something with a hole that might or might not be the right size

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Low-Profile-Bracket-for-LG-Ericsson-PCI-1020-Wireless-802-11n-PCI-Adapter-/190735057275

 The first one is a flimsy cover plate only and not really suitable. Most people throw those out after installing  a new card.

The 2nd one is far more substantial and may be suitable, although it looks to be a little too short.

I doubt that most people (at least in Australia) would be willing to pay US$21.45 to obtain just one !

 As Amazon is only starting up in Au. with no competitive advantage ,(existing larger local suppliers are usually cheaper ) and a limited range of products here currently, I only checked ebay.

[seeteeyou]

2 hours ago, sandyk said:

 The first one is a flimsy cover plate only and not really suitable. Most people throw those out after installing  a new card.

 

https://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-reviews/R1DCQUUJC99CU6

Quote

These are very hard to find and usually cheap junk when I do find them - however, these are far from junk. These slot covers were of the highest quality I have ever seen and I don't hesitate to recommend them to anyone!

 

2 hours ago, sandyk said:

The 2nd one is far more substantial and may be suitable, although it looks to be a little too short.

 

Ever heard of half height and low profile?

 

http://www.streacom.com/products/f7c-alpha-chassis/

[sandyk]

4 minutes ago, seeteeyou said:

Ever heard of half height and low profile?

 

 That means it isn't suitable for everyone.

 

 In this case I was replying to a PM, and thought a few others may be interested.

 Next time I won't even bother to look for and suggest other alternatives to asking someone to make a special item !

[austinpop]

A quick update regarding my tX-USBultra failure.

 

As expected, May and SOtM took excellent care of me. My issue was an intermittent failure to power up, upon insertion of the PSU barrel connector. Due to its intermittent nature, SOtM was having a hard time reproducing it, although they did eventually do so. However, to avoid prolonging my wait, they decided to "replace the internal boards" and ship it back. So I now have what amounts to a new unit in my old chassis, including the latest-rev sCLK-EX board. Now that's customer service! Kudos to SOtM.

 

Ironically, that also meant more burn in time for the tX-USBultra! Anyway, I am now in the midst of doing comparative listening with my trifecta and the Zenith SE, and hope to post some results within a day or two.

[tims]

On 1/24/2018 at 2:23 PM, Johnseye said:

 

The tX-USBexp, sCLK-EX and tX-USBultra all get powered by my Paul Hynes SR7 this way.  It's not going to get better.  Additionally, the sCLK-EX has some of its own filtering so powering the tX-USBultra through the sCLK-EX is optimal and what you get when you buy a standalone version and not broken out like I have.

 

That said, I could power it from an LPS-1 or now LPS-1.2 but I'd have to buy a new one because it's being used to power my SSD right now.

 

You should be able to power the USBhub from the sCLK-EX.  You can either go the route I did or probably connect the blue and white cable directly to the USBhub's board.  I think there's a power adapter on it for the cable to connect.

 

 

I would either contact May at SOtM or Crux Audio who are SOtM's US distributor.  You may want to source a cheaper version though.  Mine was $60 and they used stranded copper.  They also sell a different copper version and a silver version for more.

@JohnseyeThanks for this information.

Regarding powering the tx-USBexp the options are: (from an earlier post of yours); internally via the 4 pin IDE Molex at 12v or externally at 9v maximum.  The only thing I don't get is that reading the tx-USBexp operating instructions it states:

"If the tX-USBexp get powered by the external power input, make sure not to cut off the external power

while PC is powered on. If the external power is suddenly cut off, the internal parts of tX-USBexp or PC
will be damaged.....If you connect the IDE power cable inside of PC to the IDE power input connector of tX-USBexp while the tX-USBexp get powered by the external power input, it can prevent the damage of the internal parts of tX-USBexp or PC when the external power suddenly cut off."

(tx-USBexp Operating Instructions)

 

Is this your understanding?  I don't get how you can power the tx-USBexp externally at 9v and also internally at 12v via the 4 pin Molex connector at the same time?

 

Cheers

 

[sandyk]

19 minutes ago, austinpop said:

My issue was an intermittent failure to power up, upon insertion of the PSU barrel connector. Due to its intermittent nature, SOtM was having a hard time reproducing it, although they did eventually do so.

 Interesting.

I have had no end of trouble with some DC connectors recently . The sockets appear to be the problem due to poor design.

Just moving the plug around slightly could often  see power lost.

Sockets like the attached with a 2 piece centre connector would appear to be a more reliable choice.

[mansr]

Make sure you're not using a 2.5 mm plug with a 2.1 mm jack. That tends to give an unreliable connection.

[sandyk]

25 minutes ago, mansr said:

Make sure you're not using a 2.5 mm plug with a 2.1 mm jack. That tends to give an unreliable connection.

 

 Don't you just love the mish mash of this type of D.C.plug and socket, where you may need to physically try a pair together ?  The vendors often don't appear to have clear compatibility labelling or adequate descriptions. The problem that I was having was with correct matching pairs, supplied as pairs.

[mansr]

39 minutes ago, sandyk said:

 Don't you just love the mish mash of this type of D.C.plug and socket, where you may need to physically try a pair together ?  The vendors often don't appear to have clear compatibility labelling or adequate descriptions.

The worst is that odd bit of kit that wants centre cold. That's the very definition of insanity.

 

39 minutes ago, sandyk said:

The problem that I was having was with correct matching pairs, supplied as pairs.

That sucks.

[sandyk]

16 hours ago, seeteeyou said:

Maybe send them an e-mail

 

https://www.hdplex.com/contact/

 

Find out if they're willing to sell only this part instead of the entire PSU

 

https://www.hdplex.com/hdplex-fanless-400w-atx-linear-power-supply-with-modular-atx-output.html

 

 

Another one looked close enough but they're ONLY selling the bracket without the cable and the DC jack

 

http://www.mini-box.com/s.nl/it.A/id.438/.f

 

 

Anyways, it just doesn't hurt to ask them to make a cable for you to go from DC jack to female SATA power connector.

BTW, the D.C. socket shown in the lower photo does not appear to be an INSULATED type, although the photo may not be revealing enough.

It should be an insulated type to reduce the possibility of ground loops.

[Johnseye]

4 hours ago, tims said:

@JohnseyeThanks for this information.

Regarding powering the tx-USBexp the options are: (from an earlier post of yours); internally via the 4 pin IDE Molex at 12v or externally at 9v maximum.  The only thing I don't get is that reading the tx-USBexp operating instructions it states:

"If the tX-USBexp get powered by the external power input, make sure not to cut off the external power

while PC is powered on. If the external power is suddenly cut off, the internal parts of tX-USBexp or PC
will be damaged.....If you connect the IDE power cable inside of PC to the IDE power input connector of tX-USBexp while the tX-USBexp get powered by the external power input, it can prevent the damage of the internal parts of tX-USBexp or PC when the external power suddenly cut off."

(tx-USBexp Operating Instructions)

 

Is this your understanding?  I don't get how you can power the tx-USBexp externally at 9v and also internally at 12v via the 4 pin Molex connector at the same time?

 

Cheers

 

 

It's one or the other.  Fortunately my tX-USBultra is powered from the same source as the motherboard, which is the 2 rail SR7.  I won't power the card off without the PC powering off.

[lmitche]

5 hours ago, tims said:

@JohnseyeThanks for this information.

Regarding powering the tx-USBexp the options are: (from an earlier post of yours); internally via the 4 pin IDE Molex at 12v or externally at 9v maximum.  The only thing I don't get is that reading the tx-USBexp operating instructions it states:

"If the tX-USBexp get powered by the external power input, make sure not to cut off the external power

while PC is powered on. If the external power is suddenly cut off, the internal parts of tX-USBexp or PC
will be damaged.....If you connect the IDE power cable inside of PC to the IDE power input connector of tX-USBexp while the tX-USBexp get powered by the external power input, it can prevent the damage of the internal parts of tX-USBexp or PC when the external power suddenly cut off."

(tx-USBexp Operating Instructions)

 

Is this your understanding?  I don't get how you can power the tx-USBexp externally at 9v and also internally at 12v via the 4 pin Molex connector at the same time?

 

Cheers

 

In the short time the tx-USBexp was here, I had the same confusion about how best to power it.  The user manual raised concerns about damaging the component. An email response from SOTM based on a inquiry on this matter was unclear.

 

I am mildly curious to find the proper answer.

[zackthedog]

The way I understand it, the tx-USBexp must have power one way or the other before booting the computer.  I use a SATA connector as a back-up in case LPS fails or comes unplugged.  But since plugging in the LPS automatically disconnects SATA power, I'm not sure how this helps.  Some clarity would be helpful.