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A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming


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Most important: please realize this thread is about bleeding edge experimentation and discovery. No one has The Answer™. If you are not into tweaking, just know that you can have a musically satisfying system without doing any of the nutty things we do here.

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1 hour ago, austinpop said:

 

I think Larry is making a very perceptive point here.

 

Surely we can all agree that for a given component of sufficient quality, while improving the clock can make a huge difference, it's sound quality is not merely determined by the clock. Power supply quality matters. Regulators and capacitor quality matters. Ultimately, it's the system as a whole that determines SQ.

 

Now when it come to USB, it's not hard to see how the above applies. Even SOtM claim a hierarchy of USB cards in their portfolio. The tX-USBultra is basically a tX-USBhubEX and sCLK-EX board, repackaged in an Ultra chassis. I suspect the USB interface of the sMS-200 is more generic. So I don't find it that hard to understand that the tX-USBultra improves on the output of the sMS-200ultra.

 

What I do find intriguing is @mozes's observations with 2 cascaded tX-USBultra's. Clearly there is something more going on.

Hi Rajiv,

 

Do you know if the TX-USBultra needs vbus input like the ISO REGEN? If so, part of the benefits of the cascade that Mozes has observed could be due to the multiple in series regulators inherent in the resulting circuit. I do something similar here with cascaded lt3045 regulators.

 

As to the impact of the clock quality vs. the power quality, I am a boater on the Long Island Sound which can have highly variable wave heights.  I can tell you that my top speed is completely dependent on the wave height and frequency.  My expectation is that the clocks are similar where stability and speed are  completely dependent on the amount of junk on the power surrounding the clock. I think we are in a "chicken or the egg" type situation here.

 

There is another clocking phenomenon shown here: Perhaps this is explains the physics involved here, espcially when the REF 10 or other reference clock in installed.

 

Pareto Audio aka nuckleheadaudio

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5 minutes ago, mozes said:

If I had a time machine and can go back in time, I would have just bought a sCLK-EX board and utilized the 4 outputs inside my server rather than getting the tX-USBultra to benefit from a single clock output only!

 

And I don't even think you need 4 if you utilize the sCLK-EX from the point of origination, like a mobo/server.  2 is probably good enough.  Will be interesting to hear your impressions with the added tX-USBultra to the sCLK-EX server stream in and out.

(JRiver) Jetway barebones NUC (mod 3 sCLK-EX, Cybershaft OP 14)  (PH SR7) => mini pcie adapter to PCIe 1X => tXUSBexp PCIe card (mod sCLK-EX) (PH SR7) => (USPCB) Chord DAVE => Omega Super 8XRS/REL t5i  (All powered thru Topaz Isolation Transformer)

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5 minutes ago, lmitche said:

Do you know if the TX-USBultra needs vbus input like the ISO REGEN?

The TX-USBultra does not need the vbus input.

(JRiver) Jetway barebones NUC (mod 3 sCLK-EX, Cybershaft OP 14)  (PH SR7) => mini pcie adapter to PCIe 1X => tXUSBexp PCIe card (mod sCLK-EX) (PH SR7) => (USPCB) Chord DAVE => Omega Super 8XRS/REL t5i  (All powered thru Topaz Isolation Transformer)

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13 minutes ago, mozes said:

If I had a time machine and can go back in time, I would have just bought a sCLK-EX board and utilized the 4 outputs inside my server rather than getting the tX-USBultra to benefit from a single clock output only!

 

Hmmm, that's an interesting observation that makes a lot of sense to me. Thanks.

Pareto Audio aka nuckleheadaudio

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27 minutes ago, BigGuy said:

Thanks for the info, Johnseye.  As indicated in my original post, I am not yet prepared to drop $1k on a USB decrapifier.

 

What is an "FMC"?

 

I keep reading about devices that have multiple clocks or at least one like the tX-USBultra.  I do not understand what all these clocks are doing so a bit of tutelage would be great.  Looked at the manual for the sCLK-EX and my eyes glazed over!

 

I have also read on a forum about a USB decrapifier device where it is "clock locked" with a DAC.  How would performance of this device be better, if at all, than one with an unlocked clock?

 

Fiber Media Converter. Not good for jitter. 

 

Bottom line is a better quality clock. Less noise. Good filtering. 

 

Not sure about a locked clock. 

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7 minutes ago, lmitche said:

Hmmm, that's an interesting observation that makes a lot of sense to me. Thanks.

Oh NO! hehe

Ryzen 7 2700 PC Server, NUC7CJYH w. 4G Apacer RAM as Renderer/LPS 1.2 - IsoRegen/LPS-1/.2 - Singxer SU-1/LPS1.2 - Holo Spring Level 3 DAC - LTA MicroZOTL MZ2 - Modwright KWA 150 Signature Amp - Tidal Audio Piano's.  

.

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On 11/23/2017 at 7:23 PM, Cornan said:

 

Why not? ? Any suggestion of a great 2 x >5 watt tube amp?

Hi Micael, I have these on order.. Thought I'd tempt you....:).

2.7w mono blocks to drive my 94db Omegas. Plenty of power...

http://www.decware.com/newsite/SE84UFO3.html

Of interest is the tube stage which supplies clean power:

 

"....The result of the series vacuum tube power supply is a complete blocking of power supply harmonics, noise, hash, grain, and spikes. Similar to pure DC from a battery but with more current. This clean power allows the transparency of a Zen Triode to go deeper. You can get a similar effect from our basic model if you were to plug it into a $6500 power re-generator/conditioner with fan noise, more power cords etc. In the Zen Triode, the clean power from the vacuum tube is only inches away from the input stage which uses it, and there are no connectors or plugs or circuit boards to complicate matters."...

Topaz 2.5Kva Isolation Transformer > EtherRegen switch powered by Paul Hynes SR4 LPS >MacBook Pro 2013 > EC Designs PowerDac SX > TNT UBYTE-2 Speaker cables > Omega Super Alnico Monitors > 2x Rel T Zero Subwoofers. 

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14 minutes ago, tapatrick said:

Hi Micael, I have these on order.. Thought I'd tempt you....:).

2.7w mono blocks to drive my 94db Omegas. Plenty of power...

http://www.decware.com/newsite/SE84UFO3.html

Of interest is the tube stage which supplies clean power:

 

"....The result of the series vacuum tube power supply is a complete blocking of power supply harmonics, noise, hash, grain, and spikes. Similar to pure DC from a battery but with more current. This clean power allows the transparency of a Zen Triode to go deeper. You can get a similar effect from our basic model if you were to plug it into a $6500 power re-generator/conditioner with fan noise, more power cords etc. In the Zen Triode, the clean power from the vacuum tube is only inches away from the input stage which uses it, and there are no connectors or plugs or circuit boards to complicate matters."...

 

Wow Patrick! Awesome stuff! What a beautiful pairs of mono amps! I almost get wet eyes just looking at them. I am really jealous! ?

A bit more expensive than I was aiming for though, but I will surely bookmark them if I can raise the funds. Please do report back when you've tried them. ?

 

 

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2 hours ago, lmitche said:

As to the impact of the clock quality vs. the power quality, I am a boater on the Long Island Sound which can have highly variable wave heights.  I can tell you that my top speed is completely dependent on the wave height and frequency.  My expectation is that the clocks are similar where stability and speed are  completely dependent on the amount of junk on the power surrounding the clock. I think we are in a "chicken or the egg" type situation here.

 

I don't doubt that clock quality is critically tied to the quality of power being fed to the clock circuitry. But remember, for most of the discussions here, people are using very high quality PSUs - like the LPS-1, the SR7, etc.

 

2 hours ago, lmitche said:

There is another clocking phenomenon shown here: Perhaps this is explains the physics involved here, espcially when the REF 10 or other reference clock in installed.

 

 

Groan! 9_9 

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The most important power is that at the point of load with a clock, especially crystal oscillators that are often used for local clocks on PC motherboards. You can feed clean power to any circuit, its how that power is delivered on the board that is critical. The whole power deliver system is critical to any digital or mixed signal board working optimally, ensuring the best signal integrity/EMC performance.

https://www.edn.com/design/pc-board/4429990/Getting-EMC-design-right---First-time--Part-2

For clock oscillators and distribution IC's a low value small footprint COG local decoupler, with a small X7R are a good choice for local decoupling, fed via an LOD or Pi filter from main power, to create a power island. The losses of the X7R combined with the PCB parasitic impedance help minimise any resonance peaks between the two caps. Calculate the caps based on the frequencies of concern and lay it out with the COG directly connected to the pin, supply via after the COG then the X7R. 

 

Instead of pendulums, which would be quite hard to build in to a DAC or router, never mind the vibrations at 10MHz and above! You could do it this way... Or look at the sOTM stuff, that's how they have done it, properly, with a proper distributed impedance path , cables and connectors.

 

http://www.analog.com/media/en/technical-documentation/tech-articles/Synchronizing-Sample-Clocks-of-a-Data-Converter-Array-Web.pdf

 

On a lot of designs these days, you have distributed clocks on board , often due to multiple converters. Getting the clocks right can sometime involve a couple of weeks of simulation, and fine tuning, and its not so much ultimate clock speed its often a distributed clock needs to be driven quite hard so you often have initial fast rise times to contend with, to account for HF losses down the line. Clocks are close to my heart at the moment as I am routing a load of distributed differential clocks on a wave front sensor test board, all have to be microstrip with NO vias! diff pairs, length matched, all between the pins of a bloody great through hole ZIF socket to awkward connectors. Clocks are fun.

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19 hours ago, austinpop said:

 

I think Larry is making a very perceptive point here.

 

Surely we can all agree that for a given component of sufficient quality, while improving the clock can make a huge difference, it's sound quality is not merely determined by the clock. Power supply quality matters. Regulators and capacitor quality matters. Ultimately, it's the system as a whole that determines SQ.

 

Now when it come to USB, it's not hard to see how the above applies. Even SOtM claim a hierarchy of USB cards in their portfolio. The tX-USBultra is basically a tX-USBhubEX and sCLK-EX board, repackaged in an Ultra chassis. I suspect the USB interface of the sMS-200 is more generic. So I don't find it that hard to understand that the tX-USBultra improves on the output of the sMS-200ultra.

 

What I do find intriguing is @mozes's observations with 2 cascaded tX-USBultra's. Clearly there is something more going on.

Just catching up with the responses to my question yesterday, many thanks to @Moses @austinpop and others, it has certainly clarified my thoughts re the tXUSBUltra.  It is interesting to think that my thoughts re the tXUSBUltra were in fact very negative based on what could be read on SOtM's website, a case of SOtM writing lots of listening impressions type blurb (so telling you what to expect to hear if you buy one) but very little in the way of technical explanation as to why it can produce such results.  There appears to be far more technical information in the heads of contributors to this thread than SOtM seams to deem worthy of including on there website.

 

I too am very intrigued by Moses' observations, I do wonder if we will get to fully understand what is happening, but it does look like the subjective evidence is mounting here.  The report from Moses does remind me of some of the stuff that was being reported a while back from those stacking Mutec MC3's, which I guess is very similar in principle in terms of 'clock chaining'.

Windows 11 PC, Roon, HQPlayer, Focus Fidelity convolutions, iFi Zen Stream, Paul Hynes SR4, Mutec REF10, Mutec MC3+USB, Devialet 1000Pro, KEF Blade.  Plus Pro-Ject Signature 12 TT for playing my 'legacy' vinyl collection. Desktop system; RME ADI-2 DAC fs, Meze Empyrean headphones.

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On 11/25/2017 at 12:52 PM, Johnseye said:

 

Fiber Media Converter. Not good for jitter. 

 

Bottom line is a better quality clock. Less noise. Good filtering. 

 

Not sure about a locked clock. 


Thanks, Johnseye.

 

Is the primary component of devices such as (Iso)Regen, iPurifier, etc. a chip which regenerates and reclocks the USB data?

 

Does a USB hub also do this or only serve to split the signal to multiple target devices?

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3 minutes ago, BigGuy said:


Thanks, Johnseye.

 

Is the primary component of devices such as (Iso)Regen, iPurifier, etc. a chip which regenerates and reclocks the USB data?

 

Does a USB hub also do this or only serve to split the signal to multiple target devices?

Frank,

 

Yes the REGEN, TXUsb-exp, and similar offerings from IFI, Wired and others show up in operating system as a USB hub.  Most often they have one port in and one out, but not always. They are often powered as they allow substitution of vbus power from the PC with something presumably cleaner. Lastly a few contain galvanic isolation devices to stop current loops.

Pareto Audio aka nuckleheadaudio

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5 minutes ago, lmitche said:

Frank,

 

Yes the REGEN, TXUsb-exp, and similar offerings from IFI, Wired and others show up in operating system as a USB hub.  Most often they have one port in and one out, but not always. They are often powered as they allow substitution of vbus power from the PC with something presumably cleaner. Lastly a few contain galvanic isolation devices to stop current loops.

 

So given that my Adnaco FMC, which incidentally is powered by an LPS, is not good for jitter as indicated by Johnseye, I guess I should consider one of these decrapifiers between my Adnaco receiver box and DAC.

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Guys, I have a couple LT3045s with the output being right on the underside + and - soldered pins, but testing on the screws of the terminal plug gives me readings all over the place.  Did I use too much solder or flux that affected something under the terminals?

 

Thanks for the help

Chris

Ryzen 7 2700 PC Server, NUC7CJYH w. 4G Apacer RAM as Renderer/LPS 1.2 - IsoRegen/LPS-1/.2 - Singxer SU-1/LPS1.2 - Holo Spring Level 3 DAC - LTA MicroZOTL MZ2 - Modwright KWA 150 Signature Amp - Tidal Audio Piano's.  

.

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On 2017-11-25 at 10:23 AM, d_elm said:

No SOtM gear yet but I have made plans to power an sMS-200ultra with one output of an Uptone JS-2, rated for 5A.

 

I have an LPS-1 @7V powering a Netgear FS105v2, slightly warm to touch, 34C.  Another LPS-1 @7V powering a microRendu (providing 5V for Ayre Codex), hot, 43C.

Today I made an adapter to measure the current output of the LPS-1s as I use them.  The switch is drawing [email protected], the mR [email protected], and the mR+Codex [email protected] (playing DXD) max 0.76A during initial handshake with DAC.

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2 hours ago, Forehaven said:

Guys, I have a couple LT3045s with the output being right on the underside + and - soldered pins, but testing on the screws of the terminal plug gives me readings all over the place.  Did I use too much solder or flux that affected something under the terminals?

 

Thanks for the help

Chris

 

A couple of good resolution photos may help us to assist you. If you are measuring voltage output, try measuring resistance between those points instead, when not powered. i.e between the solder pad under the PCB and the screw of the terminal plug for both + and -.

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

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Thanks Sandy, Larry helped me out just awhile ago.  He helped me learn how to diagnose the outputs.  I really appreciate all the help I get here guys.  So Thanks again.

Ryzen 7 2700 PC Server, NUC7CJYH w. 4G Apacer RAM as Renderer/LPS 1.2 - IsoRegen/LPS-1/.2 - Singxer SU-1/LPS1.2 - Holo Spring Level 3 DAC - LTA MicroZOTL MZ2 - Modwright KWA 150 Signature Amp - Tidal Audio Piano's.  

.

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Hi Forehaven

 You will find that the vast majority of C.A. members are always happy to help.

Kind Regards

Alex

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

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@Austinpop, I think you tried the Netgear GS10? switch before the Zyxel in your system and found an improvement in SQ.  Would you have time to replace the Zyxel with the Netgear and power the latter at 7V with an LPS-1 ?  I am wondering if the improved magnetics in the Netgear eliminate the need for any switch mods.

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32 minutes ago, d_elm said:

@Austinpop, I think you tried the Netgear GS10? switch before the Zyxel in your system and found an improvement in SQ.  Would you have time to replace the Zyxel with the Netgear and power the latter at 7V with an LPS-1 ?  I am wondering if the improved magnetics in the Netgear eliminate the need for any switch mods.

 

I can try. Assuming the LPS-1 can power both the Netgear GS105 and the modded sMS-200.

 

I'll let you know.

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On 2017. 11. 17. at 6:37 AM, Johnseye said:

Thought I'd give an update to my SOtM modified equipment.  My experimentation has just begun, but I have everything installed and have been able to spend a few hours listening with everything in line.  I pulled out all the ferrite I had installed on cables over the weekend as I wanted to get back to where my system had been.  This allows me the best perspective for a comparison.  I'll end up putting the ferrite back, slowly cable by cable once I've settled in on how I want my SOtM gear setup.

 

sCLK-EX & tX-USBexp installation

 

While it's fairly straight forward there are a few quirks to watch out for.  Make sure you know what your device frequencies are.  The frequencies and associated sCLK taps are on a sticker on the sCLK-EX, but not the devices they attach to.  I used the picture sent by SOtM to identify which tap to cable to which device.  The RF cable connectors are small and can be tough to connect in tight spaces.  The Streacom case uses half height, or slim PCI case slot covers.  They don't lock down well to the case and the tX-USBexp slot cover in particular sits fairly loose because the screw hole doesn't line up.  Think about how you want to mount the sCLK to the PC chassis.  I don't know how Roy did it.  What I ended up doing was drilling holes into the case then using a screw tap to drill in mounting points for the card itself.  I removed the card from its tray mount because it's a little tight with that tray.  I can now install the sCLK-EX as I would the motherboard, to the case with risers.  I will also be doing the same for the Intel X25 E drive, but since the drive has mount holes I need to do it a little differently.  Otherwise these devices can sit loosely on risers inside the case.

 

Intel X25 E and SATA II filter

 

Installation is easy and straightforward.  I installed Windows 2016 Server on this drive and it's slow compared to what I've been used to.  What I mean by slow is that the installation, patching and program installs take awhile.  Much patience is required.  I'm sure the Celeron has an impact.  For a quick but not good apples to apples comparison, I installed ROCK on an M.2 drive.  I wanted to know what the difference would be in these scenarios.  The X25 with SOtM filter makes a huge difference.  With it my system has never sounded more organic.  This experiment initially tells me there is a lot of noise on that M.2 drive.  Because there are other factors involved this needs to be taken with a couple grains of salt, but those are my findings so far.  If it holds up, I'll never go back unless SOtM comes up with a new filter.

 

Power

 

Based on my experience to date, powering the tX-USBexp from the internal 12v molex adapter does not allow you to power the sCLK-EX via the J403 output on the tX-USBexp.  May is telling me it should and I owe her a picture so she can validate I have it connected correctly.  Since the instructions say the J403 is from external power I think it's just a misunderstanding.  The only way I got the tX-USBexp to power the sCLK-EX was by powering the tX from its external 9v adapter.  This is how I have it now, then with the sCLK-EX feeding the tX-USBultra USB card via an external DC cable.  My thought is to power the tX-USBexp alone from the motherboard with the 12v molex adapter.  Since the motherboard is powered by the SR7 it's pretty clean power.  I'm more curious to know how the 9v vs 12v influences the sound with both devices.  If there's no impact I'll likely revert to the 9v external power.  I will do the same with the sCLK-EX and power it directly from the SR7 using 12v from the external adapter.  The sCLK-EX will continue to feed the tX-USBultra USB module as I want to take advantage of the power filtering it does.

 

I had the Intel X25E drive being powered by the motherboard but I changed it to being powered by an LPS-1.  At this time I don't know if there's a difference.  There are too many larger impacts occurring so this will be a test on a later date.

 

Quirks

 

I have a lot going on.  I need to dial it in and the equipment needs burn in time.  I am bridging my server's NICs and have the NAS directly connected to the server.  This allows me to eliminate the switch between the two.  Only Tidal goes through the router.  Bridging the NICs was quirky at first as they wouldn't connect to the Internet and I'm not sure if the issue was Windows or clock related.  It works fine now.

 

I am having a concerning issue and do not know the cause yet.  My DAC, like many others, uses the USB Audio Class Driver Control Panel when connecting direct with USB.  This isn't necessary with an endpoint.  It allows me to set the USB Streaming Mode and ASIO Buffer Size.  In the past I could set this at Minimum Latency and the sample size could be very low.  Now when set there I get dropouts or clicks.  I need to increase the Streaming Mode to either Standard or Relaxed and increase the buffer.  I still have a lot of variables floating around so I don't know the cause yet.  Using the tX-USBexp alone allows me to use WASAPI so I will compare with that.  I've played around with Roon's settings as well as HQPlayer and with both I can't get aggressive with the latency/buffer.  Whether upsampling is used or not doesn't seem to have an impact.  With ROCK installed on the M.2 drive I did not have the issue.  I can also install JRiver and see if it's the same.  If anyone has any thoughts as to the cause please let me know.  Ultimately I'd like to get to Minimum Latency with as small of a buffer as possible.

 

I briefly tried connecting the ISO Regen to the end of this chain and with it in line, Windows can't see the DAC.  Same quirky stuff I initially experienced with the IR before.  It was much more stable with the sMS-200 but direct USB doesn't play well.  Everything is grounded.  I'm tabling this for much later.

 

Subjective impressions

 

The sound.  What I hear is pretty stunning.  The timbre is full and meaty.  Much fuller than with the sMS-200 and ISO Regen.  The soundstage is taller, wider and deeper from front to back.  Instruments and vocals have a bigger presence.  It's the most dimensional, organic, "analog like", real to life that I've ever heard from a digital source.  It effects everything I listen to.  Every single song is improved.  Vocals sound like a real person in front of me and the background is so quiet I can hear more subtleties in the music that I never heard before.

 

These opinions are with the tX-USBexp, sCLK-EX, tX-USBultra USB module and SATA II filter in line.  As I mentioned, I swapped out the X25 with SATA II filter (standard SATA cable) for the M.2 drive (no cables).  What I heard with the M.2 drive was a harder edge.  The sound was digital again. It makes that much of a difference.  I ordered a 6" SATA cable to tie me over until AudioPhil puts on his Black Friday sale, then I think I'll pick up the Pachanko SATA cable.

 

I have a lot more tweaking and tuning to do.  This is just from the first day of listening.  At first I thought the SR7 had a bigger, or at least equal impact.  After listening to more music I don't know.  I do know it's contributing to what I hear now.  I have no plans on putting the HDPlex switching power supply back in place to test, so I won't know how much.  The combination of it all is everything I hoped.  Just stunning.  Now, to iron out those quirks so I can relax and enjoy the music.

Thank you for your valuable report, Johnseye.

Am I correct in understanding that the external power into tX-USBexp actually powers tX-USBexp, sCLK-EX, and tX-USBultra USB module?

If so, can you test if LPS-1 into tX-USBexp can power the three (tX-USBexp, sCLK-EX, and tX-USBultra USB module)?

It will be greatly appreciated.

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