A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming

[Confused]

9 hours ago, austinpop said:

 

Observationally, I and many others have found that the even with a modded switch and sMS-200ultra, the tX-USBultra adds another quantum of SQ. I'm not sure if that is a function of the relative quality of their respective USB interfaces, or an effect of clock chaining. 

 

Based on quite a few user reports this statement would appear to be true.  That said, I do remain puzzled by the tX-USBultra.  Reading the blurb on SOtM's website I cannot actually work out what it is supposed to be doing.  OK, it has the sCLK-EX super clock, but as most people are feeding with a sMS-200Ultra, which has the same clock, this cannot be the absolute key to why it is improving things.  To put this into perspective, one user on this very forum reported good results placing a tX-USBultra between a sMS-200Ultra and a Mutec MC3+USB, with the whole lot fed by a Mutec REF10 reference clock signal.  I am not doubting that the tX-USBultra is adding something here, I am just simply utterly baffled as to why this can be!  Indeed, @austinpop, I am quoting your post here, but reading your words I think you are more or less saying the same thing as I am.  That is, many find that the tX-USBultra works, but also many of us seam unsure as to exactly why this should be.  Can anyone offer some insight into this?  There is perhaps another way of putting this, the sMS-200ultra is gaining a mighty fine reputation as a standalone endpoint, but what exactly is amiss with the sMS-200ultra's output that it needs a tX-USBultra to fix it?

[lmitche]

48 minutes ago, Confused said:

Based on quite a few user reports this statement would appear to be true.  That said, I do remain puzzled by the tX-USBultra.  Reading the blurb on SOtM's website I cannot actually work out what it is supposed to be doing.  OK, it has the sCLK-EX super clock, but as most people are feeding with a sMS-200Ultra, which has the same clock, this cannot be the absolute key to why it is improving things.  To put this into perspective, one user on this very forum reported good results placing a tX-USBultra between a sMS-200Ultra and a Mutec MC3+USB, with the whole lot fed by a Mutec REF10 reference clock signal.  I am not doubting that the tX-USBultra is adding something here, I am just simply utterly baffled as to why this can be!  Indeed, @austinpop, I am quoting your post here, but reading your words I think you are more or less saying the same thing as I am.  That is, many find that the tX-USBultra works, but also many of us seam unsure as to exactly why this should be.  Can anyone offer some insight into this?  There is perhaps another way of putting this, the sMS-200ultra is gaining a mighty fine reputation as a standalone endpoint, but what exactly is amiss with the sMS-200ultra's output that it needs a tX-USBultra to fix it?

While I don't own a tx-USBultra and have not heard one, but having read this thread since it's start, there hasn't been much discussion of the impact of the low noise power regulators surrounding the clocks and PLLs on this device. My hypothesis is that most of the gain is from power treatments surrounding the clock, and not the quality increase of the new clock itself vs. the old clock it replaced.

 

My expectation is that we will never know the truth about this. LOL!

[Confused]

2 minutes ago, lmitche said:

 

My expectation is that we will never know the truth about this. LOL!

I fear that this may indeed be the ultimate truth of the matter.....    

[sandyk]

4 minutes ago, lmitche said:

My hypothesis is that most of the gain is from power treatments surrounding the clock, and not the quality increase of the new clock itself vs. the old clock it replaced.

 

  I think that you may very well be correct Larry, just as the LiPo battery reportedly did originally for the USB Regen.

[LTG2010]

2 hours ago, Confused said:

That said, I do remain puzzled by the tX-USBultra.

It just re-clocks the signal with the same clock as the sms200 Ultra. Chaining 2 or 3 clocks seems to have a positive impact (reduction of jitter) which shows just how poor the original signal is, and how much research needs to be done to fully understand Digital audio ?

[ElviaCaprice]

1 hour ago, lmitche said:

While I don't own a tx-USBultra and have not heard one, but having read this thread since it's start, there hasn't been much discussion of the impact of the low noise power regulators surrounding the clocks and PLLs on this device. My hypothesis is that most of the gain is from power treatments surrounding the clock, and not the quality increase of the new clock itself vs. the old clock it replaced.

 

My expectation is that we will never know the truth about this. LOL!

I would agree, BUT, case in point, replacing the clock with the (sCLK-EX) on the already clean input of the tXUSBexp card makes a big difference over any previous clock by SOtM.  Others have replaced mobo system clocks on their motherboards before with clean power but not found these kinds of changes to the degree the sCLK-EX has given. 

 

I don't disagree that, clean power to the separated clocking board allows it not to be tainted by the component  being clocked, is a big factor, but I don't think this is the entire picture on the matter.

 

Then there is the case of the master clock input on the sCLK-EX being lifted to another degree of SQ quality from being supplied a master clock signal which again is above and beyond the clean power only theory.

[d_elm]

55 minutes ago, LTG2010 said:

It just re-clocks the signal with the same clock as the sms200 Ultra. Chaining 2 or 3 clocks seems to have a positive impact (reduction of jitter) which shows just how poor the original signal is, and how much research needs to be done to fully understand Digital audio ?

Perhaps an eye pattern of tx-USBultra USB in and out might show something.

 

I wonder if those using both sMS-200ultra and tx-USBultra could report the power supplies being used and the voltages. 

[mozes]

10 minutes ago, d_elm said:

Perhaps an eye pattern of tx-USBultra USB in and out might show something.

 

I wonder if those using both sMS-200ultra and tx-USBultra could report the power supplies being used and the voltages. 

I will give a more controlled evidence on the impact of clocking.

I have 2 tX-USBultras in series and I was feeling that this is an overkill. I removed one for a period of 3-4 weeks, I thought the step down was marginal then I put the second tX back in the chain and I couldn’t believe how much I was missing. I simply can’t go back to one tX anymore.

There is something going on there with extra clocking for sure as everything is the same. Both tXs are powered by LPS-1s and both LPS-1s are energized by the same LPS.

[ElviaCaprice]

2 hours ago, Confused said:

I fear that this may indeed be the ultimate truth of the matter.....    

The only ones fearing are the ones not incorporating the sCLK-EX into their components streaming.  They fear what they are missing.  I for one, couldn't imagine not incorporating a sCLK-EX into my mobo build, it's just too huge of a game changer, that helps simplify the whole makeup of the necessary components needed for a complete high end setup, with fantastic SQ.  Really keeping it simple.  

Server=>DAC=>Speakers

[lmitche]

9 minutes ago, ElviaCaprice said:

The only ones fearing are the ones not incorporating the sCLK-EX into their components streaming.  They fear what they are missing.  I for one, couldn't imagine not incorporating a sCLK-EX into my mobo build, it's just too huge of a game changer, that helps simplify the whole makeup of the necessary components needed for a complete high end setup, with fantastic SQ.  Really keeping it simple.  

Server=>DAC=>Speakers

Ugh! Can't we please just have a discussion about the mechanisms involved here without getting emotional? Thanks.

[ElviaCaprice]

1 minute ago, lmitche said:

Ugh! Can't we please just have a discussion about the mechanisms involved here without getting emotional? Thanks.

No emotion, here, Larry, just straight forward impressions from my own listening experience.  So where were you on the mechanisms involved???  Clean power is the only explanation?  Yet, you haven't even heard it yet, a sCLK-EX component?   Seems that in the spirit of this empirical thread it might be wiser to first have tried the component in question before looking for scientific answers.  Plenty of empirical evidence point to the sCLK-EX being what is said, here in this thread.  If you still question it's value, then I doubt any explanation scientifically is going to sway you to want to take action and go the sCLK-EX route yourself.

[d_elm]

1 hour ago, mozes said:

I will give a more controlled evidence on the impact of clocking.

I have 2 tX-USBultras in series and I was feeling that this is an overkill. I removed one for a period of 3-4 weeks, I thought the step down was marginal then I put the second tX back in the chain and I couldn’t believe how much I was missing. I simply can’t go back to one tX anymore.

There is something going on there with extra clocking for sure as everything is the same. Both tXs are powered by LPS-1s and both LPS-1s are energized by the same LPS.

@mozes, what is the temperature of the LPS-1s ?  I wonder if they are running at close to the maximum 1.1A.

[Summit]

37 minutes ago, ElviaCaprice said:

No emotion, here, Larry, just straight forward impressions from my own listening experience.  So where were you on the mechanisms involved???  Clean power is the only explanation?  Yet, you haven't even heard it yet, a sCLK-EX component?   Seems that in the spirit of this empirical thread it might be wiser to first have tried the component in question before looking for scientific answers.  Plenty of empirical evidence point to the sCLK-EX being what is said, here in this thread.  If you still question it's value, then I doubt any explanation scientifically is going to sway you to want to take action and go the sCLK-EX route yourself.

 

Which other streaming solutions have you personally compared your sCLK-EX against?

[austinpop]

4 hours ago, lmitche said:

While I don't own a tx-USBultra and have not heard one, but having read this thread since it's start, there hasn't been much discussion of the impact of the low noise power regulators surrounding the clocks and PLLs on this device. My hypothesis is that most of the gain is from power treatments surrounding the clock, and not the quality increase of the new clock itself vs. the old clock it replaced.

 

I think Larry is making a very perceptive point here.

 

Surely we can all agree that for a given component of sufficient quality, while improving the clock can make a huge difference, it's sound quality is not merely determined by the clock. Power supply quality matters. Regulators and capacitor quality matters. Ultimately, it's the system as a whole that determines SQ.

 

Now when it come to USB, it's not hard to see how the above applies. Even SOtM claim a hierarchy of USB cards in their portfolio. The tX-USBultra is basically a tX-USBhubEX and sCLK-EX board, repackaged in an Ultra chassis. I suspect the USB interface of the sMS-200 is more generic. So I don't find it that hard to understand that the tX-USBultra improves on the output of the sMS-200ultra.

 

What I do find intriguing is @mozes's observations with 2 cascaded tX-USBultra's. Clearly there is something more going on.

[davide256]

 

 

16 minutes ago, austinpop said:

 

I think Larry is making a very perceptive point here.

 

Surely we can all agree that for a given component of sufficient quality, while improving the clock can make a huge difference, it's sound quality is not merely determined by the clock. Power supply quality matters. Regulators and capacitor quality matters. Ultimately, it's the system as a whole that determines SQ.

 

Now when it come to USB, it's not hard to see how the above applies. Even SOtM claim a hierarchy of USB cards in their portfolio. The tX-USBultra is basically a tX-USBhubEX and sCLK-EX board, repackaged in an Ultra chassis. I suspect the USB interface of the sMS-200 is more generic. So I don't find it that hard to understand that the tX-USBultra improves on the output of the sMS-200ultra.

 

What I do find intriguing is @mozes's observations with 2 cascaded tX-USBultra's. Clearly there is something more going on.

I'm waiting for the nitrogen cooled version of the Sonore xRendu before I make my next upgrade

[mozes]

52 minutes ago, d_elm said:

@mozes, what is the temperature of the LPS-1s ?  I wonder if they are running at close to the maximum 1.1A.

They are hot, but didn’t measure

[austinpop]

5 minutes ago, davide256 said:

I'm waiting for the nitrogen cooled version of the Sonore xRendu before I make my next upgrade

 

David, 

 

There's no magic here. If you look at what differs between the micro- and the ultra-Rendu, as described in this post by @JohnSwenson, you'll see the same themes echoed there:

• better clock
• better regulators
• better system design.

https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/31811-sonore-ultrarendu/?do=findComment&comment=666513

 

[davide256]

6 minutes ago, austinpop said:

 

David, 

 

There's no magic here. If you look at what differs between the micro- and the ultra-Rendu, as described in this post by @JohnSwenson, you'll see the same themes echoed there:

• better clock
• better regulators
• better system design.

https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/31811-sonore-ultrarendu/?do=findComment&comment=666513

 

Thermal noise is one of the bugaboos of building more sensitive equipment for testing. The factors above all sound like they align with reducing or mitigating thermal noise

[austinpop]

7 minutes ago, mozes said:

They are hot, but didn’t measure

 

Here you go.  

 

[BigGuy]

On 11/21/2017 at 10:20 AM, Johnseye said:

 

Roy has checked out of the forum.  He has commented on the ISO Regen and use of it in his system.  Take a look at the index for his posts.

 

One comment about FMCs is that they have their own PSUs and clocks.  Their clocks are often noisy.  You're potentially adding noise on one end to reduce it by using fiber.

 

A more recent effort has been to eliminate as much noise as possible from the PC/server.  If you read what I and a couple others have done, we've used the sCLK-EX, which is a component of the tX-USBultra, to improve the clocks in either our PC, switch or both.

Thanks for the info, Johnseye.  As indicated in my original post, I am not yet prepared to drop $1k on a USB decrapifier.

 

What is an "FMC"?

 

I keep reading about devices that have multiple clocks or at least one like the tX-USBultra.  I do not understand what all these clocks are doing so a bit of tutelage would be great.  Looked at the manual for the sCLK-EX and my eyes glazed over!

 

I have also read on a forum about a USB decrapifier device where it is "clock locked" with a DAC.  How would performance of this device be better, if at all, than one with an unlocked clock?

[mozes]

12 minutes ago, austinpop said:

 

Here you go.  

 

Thanks I have a similar one from my RC hobby  

[d_elm]

17 minutes ago, mozes said:

They are hot, but didn’t measure

No SOtM gear yet but I have made plans to power an sMS-200ultra with one output of an Uptone JS-2, rated for 5A.

 

I have an LPS-1 @7V powering a Netgear FS105v2, slightly warm to touch, 34C.  Another LPS-1 @7V powering a microRendu (providing 5V for Ayre Codex), hot, 43C.

[ElviaCaprice]

8 minutes ago, BigGuy said:

As indicated in my original post, I am not yet prepared to drop $1k on a USB decrapifier.

 

 

I wouldn't disagree with this other than if your not going to do the sCLK-EX modification at the point of streaming origination (server), then your next best choice would be along it's path, thus a USB decrapifier, as you put it.

[austinpop]

8 minutes ago, d_elm said:

No SOtM gear yet but I have made plans to power an sMS-200ultra with one output of an Uptone JS-2, rated for 5A.

 

I have an LPS-1 @7V powering a Netgear FS105v2, slightly warm to touch, 34C.  Another LPS-1 @7V powering a microRendu (providing 5V for Ayre Codex), hot, 43C.

 

I posted some temp readings a few months ago, including the tX driving my Codex.

 

https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/30376-a-novel-way-to-massively-improve-the-sq-of-computer-audio-streaming/?do=findComment&comment=707608

 

[mozes]

2 minutes ago, ElviaCaprice said:

I wouldn't disagree with this other than if your not going to do the sCLK-EX modification at the point of streaming origination (server), then your next best choice would be along it's path, thus a USB decrapifier, as you put it.

If I had a time machine and can go back in time, I would have just bought a sCLK-EX board and utilized the 4 outputs inside my server rather than getting the tX-USBultra to benefit from a single clock output only!