A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming

[rickca]

5 minutes ago, Johnseye said:

To clarify, it has a standard 15 pin power connector and data.  It does filter both.  I was referring to the power connector being standard as opposed to slimline or micro.

OK thanks now I understand what you meant.  

5 minutes ago, Johnseye said:

Also, if you note from my picture, the external DC in cable to SATA power adapter only has the two 5v cables.

This part I still don't understand.  What role does that external DC input play, how do you plan to use it?

[Johnseye]

7 minutes ago, rickca said:

OK thanks now I understand what you meant.  

This part I still don't understand.  What role does that external DC input play, how do you plan to use it?

 

I can power the SATA drive from two (maybe 3) different methods.  A. from the motherboard's SATA power out pins.  B. from an external DC in to SATA power adapter and the still open question as to whether the 5v out from the sCLK-EX can power it.

 

Take a look at the picture in my other post of the power cable running to the SATA II filter from the external DC in which is connected to a case bracket.

[R1200CL]

22 hours ago, ElviaCaprice said:

the sCLK-EX server

 

Is that a product as well. (Server)  I've only see the clock board listed.

 

22 hours ago, ElviaCaprice said:

So now you are comparing different AE's, some without capable memory for data storage/streaming (to answer your first question). 

 

Yes, for streaming. Some products offer adding USB disks.

 

22 hours ago, ElviaCaprice said:

Streaming from an online media source such as Tidal has it's difficulties for best SQ regardless of AE, in my opinion.   I don't think you could ever equal offline source in SQ all things being equal.

 

Well if that is the case, and most people agree, then of cause my point/suggestion may be of less value. Still could be cheaper, but we don't know for sure.

 

Still we could discuss the possibility using virtual PC's as they in theory should not be affected by the same noise as a real one.

Of cause the virtual will use the same I/O's as a physical one, but you should easily be able to switch of those you don't need.

 

I hope someone will test this out. It should probably have its own thread. It should cost you zero to try.

 

22 hours ago, ElviaCaprice said:

We just know that it works to reclock that streaming data with the sCLK-EX and isolate from noise.

 

Exactly, but you don't need a expensive computer for that. SoTm and others I think offers stand alone clocks. 
As I said I'm all for better PS and clocks on AE, switches etc.

 

I'm just trying to sell the idea that you may move everything else out far away. (But yes, as you claim, that will affect SQ)

 

22 hours ago, ElviaCaprice said:

let alone you still will need a server for any offline streaming

 

Of cause, if your requirement is offline, (which I then wouldn't call streaming) then you're correct.

 

Anyway I hope I got some people interested testing virtual computers. It may very well be a extremely good and cost effective solution.

 

[ElviaCaprice]

What is so expensive with DIY'ing a sCLK-EX server?  My NUC was only $100.  The sCLK-EX  is the expensive add on, but still less than the sms-200Ultra and the trifecta add on.

Sorry, I'm just not seeing the virtual PC thing at all. 

[limniscate]

Testing in progress:

 

 

[Johnseye]

6 minutes ago, limniscate said:

Testing in progress:

 

 

 

Watch out for cable drag!

 

[Johnseye]

6 hours ago, charlesphoto said:

Johnseye - you may want to try removing the ferrites one at a time, starting with the interconnects first, USB and Ethernet after that. I’ve read, at least with Naim gear in my case, that ferrites can kill the sound when used on the DIN to DIN ic’s. One might need to find that balance between softening of the sound, and maintaining the music and PRAT. Nonetheless, fun, cheap, harmless stuff. Much better than spending three figures for that incremental bump that you think you hear. 

 

I've been thinking about this.  How does ferrite "kill the sound"?  Is it then only removing EMI/RF which we previously thought of as part of the sound and something we've become accustomed with digital music?  It can not suppress, or cause a negative result before the analog conversion because it can't affect the data, only the noise on the line.  Putting it on the interconnects after conversion could have an impact if the ferrite somehow absorbs certain frequencies of the music source, but I haven't read of that occurring. It is possible though and more than possible I haven't read about it.

 

I have read of concern with ferrite becoming magnetized.  If this happens the sound can "harden", but that would assume the softening as a result of the ferrite was a positive, which I think it is.  Then you can either demagnetize the ferrite or replace it.

 

Since I'm rebuilding my server tonight I've decided to remove all the ferrite so I can hear what the new build is like without it.  Then I will add it component by component.  I will leave it off the interconnects for a period of time so I'll be able to hear the difference with and without ferrite on analog cables.

[mozes]

1 hour ago, Johnseye said:

 

I've been thinking about this.  How does ferrite "kill the sound"?  Is it then only removing EMI/RF which we previously thought of as part of the sound and something we've become accustomed with digital music?  It can not suppress, or cause a negative result before the analog conversion because it can't affect the data, only the noise on the line.  Putting it on the interconnects after conversion could have an impact if the ferrite somehow absorbs certain frequencies of the music source, but I haven't read of that occurring. It is possible though and more than possible I haven't read about it.

 

I have read of concern with ferrite becoming magnetized.  If this happens the sound can "harden", but that would assume the softening as a result of the ferrite was a positive, which I think it is.  Then you can either demagnetize the ferrite or replace it.

 

Since I'm rebuilding my server tonight I've decided to remove all the ferrite so I can hear what the new build is like without it.  Then I will add it component by component.  I will leave it off the interconnects for a period of time so I'll be able to hear the difference with and without ferrite on analog cables.

Just to share my experience with ferrites. I added 6 to my BJC Cat6a ethernet cable and the improvements with Tidal are noticeable. Lower noise floor with less high frequency harshness. I am using Wurt 7.5mm ferrites. 

[auricgoldfinger]

2 hours ago, limniscate said:

Testing in progress:

 

 

 

LOL.  I know you're having a great time!

[Boomboy]

3 hours ago, mozes said:

Just to share my experience with ferrites. I added 6 to my BJC Cat6a ethernet cable and the improvements with Tidal are noticeable. Lower noise floor with less high frequency harshness. I am using Wurt 7.5mm ferrites. 

Any chance you could share a pic ? Wondering where you put them .. Like close to plug end or doesnt matter .. ive never heard of them so just curious as i might purchase .. thnx 

[austinpop]

4 hours ago, limniscate said:

Testing in progress:

 

 

 

This is what Xtreme spaghetti looks like! 6 - count 'em - 6 LPS-1s alone. I love meets!

 

[Johnseye]

39 minutes ago, austinpop said:

 

This is what Xtreme spaghetti looks like! 6 - count 'em - 6 LPS-1s alone. I love meets!

 

 

Nice lookin Ref 6

[sandyk]

1 hour ago, Johnseye said:

This is what Xtreme spaghetti looks like! 6 - count 'em - 6 LPS-1s alone. I love meets!

 

Alex C loves you too !

BTW, a couple of Aussie friends also have LPS-1s too.

[mozes]

2 hours ago, Boomboy said:

Any chance you could share a pic ? Wondering where you put them .. Like close to plug end or doesnt matter .. ive never heard of them so just curious as i might purchase .. thnx 

Here you get 

[Speed Racer]

2 minutes ago, mozes said:

Here you get 

 

That's just silly.....

[mozes]

Just now, Speed Racer said:

 

That's just silly.....

Yes looks silly but sounds good

[Boomboy]

Thnx mozes .. last silly question . My cat 7 cable is 6.5 mm so should i get 6.5 mm ferrites ? Or a bit bigger to allow for any cable pinching ?

[mozes]

1 minute ago, Boomboy said:

Thnx mozes .. last silly question . My cat 7 cable is 6.5 mm so should i get 6.5 mm ferrites ? Or a bit bigger to allow for any cable pinching ?

6.5mm should be fine, a tight fit is better so at least they don't move along the cable. I am no expert with ferrites though, just based on what my ears tell me. I tried adding the ferrites one by one  and I like their effect.

[Speed Racer]

A tight fit doesn’t matter. You would be much better off getting a ferrite core that would allow multiple passes of the wire. Three passes would be the same as nine ferrite cores with 1 pass. 

[mozes]

5 minutes ago, Speed Racer said:

A tight fit doesn’t matter. You would be much better off getting a ferrite core that would allow multiple passes of the wire. Three passes would be the same as nine ferrite cores with 1 pass. 

Great you just gave me an idea of what to do with the larger ferrites collecting dust in my box

 

[jean-michel6]

7 hours ago, Johnseye said:

 

I've been thinking about this.  How does ferrite "kill the sound"?  Is it then only removing EMI/RF which we previously thought of as part of the sound and something we've become accustomed with digital music?  It can not suppress, or cause a negative result before the analog conversion because it can't affect the data, only the noise on the line.  Putting it on the interconnects after conversion could have an impact if the ferrite somehow absorbs certain frequencies of the music source, but I haven't read of that occurring. It is possible though and more than possible I haven't read about it.

 

I have read of concern with ferrite becoming magnetized.  If this happens the sound can "harden", but that would assume the softening as a result of the ferrite was a positive, which I think it is.  Then you can either demagnetize the ferrite or replace it.

 

Since I'm rebuilding my server tonight I've decided to remove all the ferrite so I can hear what the new build is like without it.  Then I will add it component by component.  I will leave it off the interconnects for a period of time so I'll be able to hear the difference with and without ferrite on analog cables.

Hi

I have also experiment with ferrite . However you need to be careful on which cable you use them.

All current are electromagnetic waves as well as Emi-rfi that we are trying to get rid of. 

Ferrite is effective with positive results ( from an audio perspective ) on digital cables ( USB, lan,...  ) on power cords. 

On interconnect , it has a negative effect as it just kills the sound making it softer and less engaging. 

One very effective way to shield all cables from emi-rfi is the use of mumetal , with two layers to passively cover cable. 

One cable company in france HiFi cable is using this  technology on all their top line cable with very good results. 

I have treated my digital cables with very good results. 

The main difficulty is to find mumetal for this at a reasonable cost. 

[auricgoldfinger]

9 hours ago, jean-michel6 said:

Hi

I have also experiment with ferrite . However you need to be careful on which cable you use them.

All current are electromagnetic waves as well as Emi-rfi that we are trying to get rid of. 

Ferrite is effective with positive results ( from an audio perspective ) on digital cables ( USB, lan,...  ) on power cords. 

On interconnect , it has a negative effect as it just kills the sound making it softer and less engaging. 

One very effective way to shield all cables from emi-rfi is the use of mumetal , with two layers to passively cover cable. 

One cable company in france HiFi cable is using this  technology on all their top line cable with very good results. 

I have treated my digital cables with very good results. 

The main difficulty is to find mumetal for this at a reasonable cost. 

 

How difficult is it to wrap the cables?  Is the mumetal fairly pliable?

 

Would it be possible for you to share some photos of your cables?

[marce]

11 hours ago, jean-michel6 said:

Hi

I have also experiment with ferrite . However you need to be careful on which cable you use them.

All current are electromagnetic waves as well as Emi-rfi that we are trying to get rid of. 

Ferrite is effective with positive results ( from an audio perspective ) on digital cables ( USB, lan,...  ) on power cords. 

On interconnect , it has a negative effect as it just kills the sound making it softer and less engaging. 

One very effective way to shield all cables from emi-rfi is the use of mumetal , with two layers to passively cover cable. 

One cable company in france HiFi cable is using this  technology on all their top line cable with very good results. 

I have treated my digital cables with very good results. 

The main difficulty is to find mumetal for this at a reasonable cost. 

Ferrites are frequency dependent in their effect... generally in the MHz

[austinpop]

@Bruce Orr, @limniscate, and I just concluded a very entertaining and enjoyable digital audio meet on Eric's wonderful setup. Bruce is a CA'er from Dallas - so he practically lives in our back yard; this is Texas! He was gracious enough to fly down for the day, and brought with him some goodies which we were very interested to compare - the UltraRendu, and the sPS-500 PSU with SOtM silver Y-cable. Between his gear, Eric's, and mine, we had more digital front end gear than you could shake a stick at. Funny expression, that. Why shake a stick at digital gear? What am I saying! We're audiophiles - if it improves SQ, you can bet we'll shake sticks and more.  But I digress...

 

Since this was a single session of 7-8 hours total, not all of which was listening, all my impressions below are necessarily preliminary. Please bear that in mind. I fully expect Bruce and Eric to jump in with their impressions as well.

 

Since our interest was in the UltraRendu and the sPS-500, and Bruce's in our trifectas, we designed a manageable set of listening comparisons to satisfy most interests. Even so, we inevitably ran out of time. The baseline configuration, which was held constant, and so is implied in the comparison sections below, was:

• Roon Core bridged server > dcBL7 > iSO6 > dCBL7 > endpoint or switch
• In configs with switch, the switch > endpoint cable was dCBL7
• USB cables:
  • Lush into DAC
  • USPCBs for intermediate
• Unless otherwise specified, each device was powered by an LPS-1
• The rest of the chain was held constant to Eric's setup:
  • Yggy DAC (fed via USB) > Audio Research Ref6SE > Sanders Magtech (?) > Magnepan 3.7i with dual Rythmik subs

Comparison 1: UltraRendu vs. sMS-200ultra (standalone)

We compared

• UR > DAC with
• sMS-200ultra > DAC. No reference clock was used. The sMS-200ultra was powered by 2 LPS-1s in series.

This one was very close. My preference varied with the track selection. One of our go-to tracks that emerged that day was the 5th movement (Rondo - Finale) of the recent BIS release of Mahler's 5th performed by the Minnesota Orchestra:

 

On the Mahler, I found the sMS-200ultra to have just that extra air, timbre, and refinement. However the UltraRendu was no slouch, and on some other jazz and blues tracks, had  a bit more pleasing weight and slam. Let's put it this way - if I owned one, I wouldn't be tempted to sell it to buy the other.

 

Comparison 2: UR+IR vs. full trifecta medley

Here we compared the following:

• UR > ISO-R > DAC, with

• modded switch > modded sMS-200 > ISO-R > tX-USBultra > DAC. Cybershaft OP-14 connected to tX-USBultra clock input

This wasn't a fair comparison, given the price differential between the two configurations, and the results were consistent. The full trifecta medley was head and shoulders better. I'll let Bruce give us his impressions here, as this was his first listen to the full trifecta.

 

The one observation I will make here is this. Depending on how you count, the price difference between the 2 configurations is $2600-3000. What I have found is that the SQ bump I hear from the $3k additional investment in this part of the digital audio chain is far greater than the difference I heard by stepping up to a DAC that was $3k more expensive than mine. Indeed in the cases of the DAVE and the QX-5, the difference was more like $10k and $7k respectively, and I don't feel the difference in SQ was as stark as what I am hearing in this region of the chain.

 

I know I keep harping on this point, but I'm a fan of value for money, and this area - for now - has proved to be a rich vein for me. FWIW.

 

Comparison 3: LPS-1 vs sPS-500

We used the full trifecta configuration: modded switch > modded sMS-200 > ISO-R > tX-USBultra > DAC. Cybershaft OP-14 connected to tX-USBultra clock input. We varied the PSU used on the tX-USBultra, because from past experience, the tX-USBultra in this chain seems to be the most sensitive to PSU quality. We compared:

• LPS-1 with Ghent starquad DC cable, set at 7V
• sPS-500 with SOtM silver Y-cable (only one output used), set at 7V
• sPS-500 with SOtM silver Y-cable (only one output used), set at 9V.

This one was just too close too call. Perhaps with more time and extended listening, subtle differences would emerge, but in the limited time we had, we just could not discern enough to tell these apart. We did wonder how much of a boost the silver DC cable was providing, but since the sPS-500 uses the funky Hirose connectors, we had no standard alternatives to swap in.

 

On the one hand, one could say the sPS-500 sounded wonderful, for an SMPS. On the other hand, one could say that the LPS-1, once again, demonstrated the sonic gem it is at its unbeatable price point.

 

Summary

I cannot overemphasize how much fun these meets are. I'm just amazed at how easy it is to click with fellow audiophiles. I hope to do this again with more local CA'ers.

[marce]

This may be of interest...

https://www.murata.com/~/media/webrenewal/products/emc/emifil/knowhow/26to30.ashx

 

Looking at the ferrite stuff, there is a whole range including some low frequency ones deigned for SMPS's with a noticeable effect from 150kHz - 30MHz perfect for the output.

Trying to find some figures for the high frequency ferrites (100MHz-500MHz) all the graphs I have found so far only go down to 1MHz.